Can OELVN be considered doujin?

[lordcloudx]

I'm kinda hazy on the actual meaning of doujin cept I know that jin means man in general.

Anywayz, what the thread title says. Discuss.

[mikey]

For me, it's explained here. Scroll to down to "doujin". Left column = Japanese, right column = Western. Center = My opinion.

That was an easy one.

EDIT - of course for the literal meaning, I have no clue.

[Misuzu]

I use the Japanese definition which is any work made by/released by any non-commercially registered entity.

Aka: If your not listed as a business in Japan's Business Index, and you make something and release it to the public, its doujin.

By that definition, all OELs (besides possibly Shira'Oka, I don't know if Okashi Studios is considered a commercial entity in the States) would be considered doujin work.

[F.I.A]

From what I read in most comics, doujin(同人) means "same human" in kanji reading. Most of the time, it relates to works by budding artists.

Since they are not made by some hi-tech companies and the likes, it is called 同人, as in by the people of same rank of sort. To put it short, a "by fans to fans" work. The medium at work can be original or fanfiction.

So, as long as the OELVN is not made by some registered company, I guess you can call it a doujin.

[papillon]

I'm legally moving to 'partnership' status for tax purposes, but not quite 'registered company' yet. My character artist has the project listed on her website under 'doujin' but I can't READ what the rest of the site says to see what she means by it... (She does know it's commercial, she also knows it's small-budget.)

[mikey]

I use the Japanese definition which is any work made by/released by any non-commercially registered entity.

Aka: If your not listed as a business in Japan's Business Index, and you make something and release it to the public, its doujin.

By that definition, all OELs (besides possibly Shira'Oka, I don't know if Okashi Studios is considered a commercial entity in the state) would be considered doujin work (... in Japan).

I hope that green insert is correct. Thanks for that definition - does that technically mean that doujin is produced by freelancers - as opposed to registered companies like Limited etc..? Or is there a way in Japan to make profit and NOT be registered (in terms of needing to pay taxes)? Here, even freelancers need to be registered and pay taxes.

[Misuzu]

I'm legally moving to 'partnership' status for tax purposes, but not quite 'registered company' yet. My character artist has the project listed on her website under 'doujin' but I can't READ what the rest of the site says to see what she means by it... (She does know it's commercial, she also knows it's small-budget.)

Many doujin groups sell their games for profit, and thus theres the clause that you have to be a registered company in Japan to not be a doujin =D.

So as long as your not a registered company in the US, I would consider your work still to be doujin. Just commercial doujin =D.

I use the Japanese definition which is any work made by/released by any non-commercially registered entity.

Aka: If your not listed as a business in Japan's Business Index, and you make something and release it to the public, its doujin.

By that definition, all OELs (besides possibly Shira'Oka, I don't know if Okashi Studios is considered a commercial entity in the state) would be considered doujin work (... in Japan).

I hope that green insert is correct. Thanks for that definition - does that technically mean that doujin is produced by freelancers - as opposed to registered companies like Limited etc..? Or is there a way in Japan to make profit and NOT be registered (in terms of needing to pay taxes)? Here, even freelancers need to be registered and pay taxes.

Well, it is a Japanese term anyways, so it applies to how it would be accepted in Japan =D. Just like we've adopted the word visual novels from Japan and warped its meaning from the original Japanese meaning, we can do the same for doujinshi as this community grows. So I think doujinshi right now means whatever you make of it in the community as I don't think an established meaning has come out for it in the OEL visual novel community.

As for the tax workings, limited holdings, and what not of doujin groups in Japan, unfortunately I'm not very well versed in how actual groups work nor the tax structor in Japan and if doujinshi sales are even reported or taxed profits.

[Misuzu]

After thinking about it a bit more, I think the biggest definition in Japan of what is doujinshi and what is not doujinshi is mostly dependent on how it was released and through what channel more then anything else.

The prime example of this is Shakugan no Shana Line Art collection. It is considered a doujin piece even though it was drawn by Noizi Ito and theres an extra story in it (I do believe) written by Yashichiro Takahashi in there. That is the Shana Light Novel creative team right there, and Shakugan no Shana Line Art is very similar to Guren, Noizi Ito's artbook (which also features a Shana short by Yashichiro Takahashi). The differance between the two? Guren was licensed and sold by Media Works (a large commercial entity) through standard channels such as bookstores and what not while Shakugan no Shana was published by Fujitsubo Machine, a doujin group and sold via conventions and doujin specaility shops.

Really, even in Japan, the line is kinda blurry (as shown above). The print quality on Shana Lineart is debatly slightly better then Guren (it is definitely professional print quality), the work is done by pros, and the biggest differance between the two works were licensor/distributor and distributor channels.

Another great example is say Koushi Rikudou (creator of Excel Saga). He makes doujin works all the time of his published manga, but he just sells them under his doujin groups name and lets his doujin group handle all the publishing and distribution. (This is relatively common with manga-ka, especially the ones who got their start with doujin originally).

Hrmm... somehow I don't think this makes the question of whether OELVNs are doujin are not any simpler xD.

[mikey]

Hmmm, so then...

Suppose Flood of Tears is a doujin game and now the makers decide (it's a free world) to create a company that sells VNs, put the initial cash on the table, register their company and start their efforts in selling the game. With this, their game (VN) is by that definition not doujin anymore, but commercial. Nothing would change, just the legal circumstances - furthermore imagine Flood of Tears 2 that they would do under the new flag which would be the standard samey sequel - it would be a non-doujin product as well, even though nothing would change, the guys would be the same, their style and art and everything.

EDIT: Ah, you see ^_^

Actually that's the whole problem, they are trying to put some "spirit" into the term and that's fine, but then it doesn't make it exact - so I'm back to the old definition of works being produced/released by channels calling themselves doujin...

Also, I'll stand by my suggestion then... to simply use other terms in English. Commercial (for sale) or free, which say nothing about the communities or artistic qualities - and in turn are more objective and most of all precise.

[DaFool]

Hrmm... somehow I don't think this makes the question of whether OELVNs are doujin are not any simpler xD.

Basically, as long as you're not published by Tokyopop, etc., you're still non-mainstream in distribution, hence you're doujin.

Tokyopop manga are OEL, some of them may seem amateur, but since mainstream bookstores carry them, they're not doujin by that latest definition.

But wait a minute...is dlsite really a doujin distributor? When I think about it, it doesn't seem right.

[PyTom]

But wait a minute...is dlsite really a doujin distributor? When I think about it, it doesn't seem right.

Why not? I mean, they take games from small, independent houses, and distribute them, taking care of the various merchant-bank aspects of the transaction. That's a doujin distributor in my book.

[Counter Arts]

I guess for me, Doujin products are things that are created with minimal influence of business concerns.

[mikey]

I guess for me, Doujin products are things that are created with minimal influence of business concerns.

That's also a very nice way to put it. Seems to be quite accurate, too.

[lordcloudx]

hehe well, this thread performed as expected.
Note to self: experiment over.

[Counter Arts]

hehe well, this thread performed as expected.
Note to self: experiment over.

Hmm? What are you fishing for anyways? Hehe...