Extremely Long-Term Data Storage

[mugenjohncel]

Long story short... I have this little habit of inserting random things in Time-Capsules of every building or structure we construct and once again I am presented with another marvelous chance to pass something for the future (or just troll them for the heck of it)

Not including the usual things like a copy of the Building Plan and such... Past items include...

▪ A porn magazine
▪ Several laminated photos of me and my online persona (Uncle Mugen)
▪ A shrink wrapped DVD of Moonlight Walks V-2.0
▪ A shrink wrapped DVD of The Fucking Question V-1.0
▪ A shrink wrapped DVD of Marijuana the Truth V-1.0 (with detailed instructions how to open)
▪ A condom
▪ A pack of Marlboro
▪ A Mio (K-On) Figma (Which I now regret)
▪ A Pencil
▪ A Scissor (by accident... the very same one used in the ribbon cutting)
▪ A Php100 Peso Bill

Right now I'm betting on DVD's and SD card to store several Ren'py Games I plan on putting in the Time-Capsule... but someone on the Ren'py IRC told me they will decay in a few decades despite being shrink wrapped and waterproofed.

Any suggestions (besides writing on stone) how to store data reliably for the extreme long haul... Also, unlike the previous timecapsules this one will not be buried but rather embedded in one of the non-load bearing pillars above ground so we expect it to last longer or even extracted within 20 to 30 years depending on future plans / renovations they have for the building...

So any suggestions?...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[Taleweaver]

Any suggestions (besides writing on stone) how to store data reliably for the extreme long haul...)

Print out the code on acid-free paper (it doesn't matter if you do it in very fine print; scientists of later ages will certainly have not forgotten what a microscope is). Then take all the art, print it out and label it so that later generations can rescan it. Finally, for the music, either put it on a vinyl record or just write down the musical score.

Sealed in a time capsule, that should remain readable for at least a few centuries.

[mugenjohncel]

Any suggestions (besides writing on stone) how to store data reliably for the extreme long haul...)

Print out the code on acid-free paper (it doesn't matter if you do it in very fine print; scientists of later ages will certainly have not forgotten what a microscope is). Then take all the art, print it out and label it so that later generations can rescan it. Finally, for the music, either put it on a vinyl record or just write down the musical score.

Sealed in a time capsule, that should remain readable for at least a few centuries.

Ren'py code printed in paper?.... Hmm... This might be tricky because I only have 2FT x 1FT x 9IN worth of space and I think Ren'py given how complex it is will still take several reams of paper despite printed in very tiny letters... (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this)

That will be good for non digital data stuff but what about Digital Data?... Besides DVD and SD cards I also have a spare SSD here which doesn't have moving parts but I have no idea how long they can retain data... it would be nice for the future generations to see how we script in Ren'py back then...

Now that I think of it... the Moonlight Walks DVD is certainly doomed to decay in a few decades... it was buried 5 meters below (yep... you read it correctly... 5 meters) inside a sealed tube in what is now currently the lobby of the not so newly constructed school building at Don Mariano Marcos High School...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Right now I'm betting on DVD's and SD card to store several Ren'py Games I plan on putting in the Time-Capsule... but someone on the Ren'py IRC told me they will decay in a few decades despite being shrink wrapped and waterproofed.

DVDs and SD cards won't physically decay if shrink-wrapped and waterproofed, but the data will become unreadable/lost after a certain number of years. Plus, at the rate technology is progessing future discoverers of your DVD cache are unlikely to have the hardware or software to read the contents, even IF the data wasn't lost.

Unfortunately I don't think even a SSD will last decades. The longest lasting digital storage medium at the moment is the experimental (and largely conceptual) holographic crystal tech, and even it has an estimated 50 year lifespan.

Sadly, long term digital storage without active transference to new mediums is a problem the world is still trying to solve. We haven't come up with anything that beats the paper and stone of our ancestors. Metal records may be the best for storing information in audio format - the time capsule known as the Crypt of Civilization has several sealed within glass tubes with the air replaced with nitrogen. They have multiple record players, parts to repair the record players, and instructions for operating and repairing the record players in multiple different languages, and in pictograph form for those unable to read any of those languages in the future.

You come up with a way to store digital information for hundreds of years with no human input, Mugen, and you'll be fabulously wealthy. Even if you solved the hardware issue, the poor future people are likely to load up the video and find they are missing a codec that hasn't existed in centuries....

[Taleweaver]

Ren'py code printed in paper?.... Hmm... This might be tricky because I only have 2FT x 1FT x 9IN worth of space and I think Ren'py given how complex it is will still take several reams of paper despite printed in very tiny letters... (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this)

The logical solution: Microforms! Guaranteed to last 500 years.

[PyTom]

Upload the materials to http://www.archive.org , then print out the URL on acid-free paper. Or engrave it on metal/plastic/something.

[Biomass]

Archiving any kind of software binary executable and expecting future generations to even be able to run it is probably not likely. Even if you could preserve the bits of your renpy game and future archaelogists are able to transfer it to their digital media, it is unlikely they'll be running any OS that even remotely resembles the linux and windows of today. You'll have to include a copy of the OS just in case. Oh, but then you'll probably need to include blueprints and schematics for compatible hardware.

I would love to see the faces of the people thousands of years from now who go through the effort of actually recreating a 21st century computer only to find a renpy game.

[PyTom]

Honestly, I don't think that's true. Granted, we're talking about ~30 years, rather than hundreds - but it's pretty easy to run software written for the C=64, Apple II, Atari 2600, or original NES, and it's not hard to run software written for MS-DOS. The hard part is often getting the software from old disks or ROMs onto a modern computer - once you can do that, running it is easy.

That's why - at the risk of repeating myself - the right thing to do is to upload to a place like the internet archive, with a mission of making our digital artifacts available to future generations.

I took the liberty of asking the Internet Archive if they'd be willing to host a visual novel collection for us. They answered in the affirmative - as long as we can come up with more than 50 visual novels to upload, they'd be willing to create a collection to contain them. I think this is a project we - as a community - should undertake, as I'm frankly scared by how many visuals were lost when megaupload went down, and how many are on precarious hosting currently, and might be lost due to hardware failure, business failure, or any of a number of problems.

[Spiky Caterpillar]

Archiving any kind of software binary executable and expecting future generations to even be able to run it is probably not likely. Even if you could preserve the bits of your renpy game and future archaelogists are able to transfer it to their digital media, it is unlikely they'll be running any OS that even remotely resembles the linux and windows of today. You'll have to include a copy of the OS just in case. Oh, but then you'll probably need to include blueprints and schematics for compatible hardware.

Ren'Py visual novels are not strongly dependent on the underlying operating system, or even all that dependent on the underlying programming languages. There are a few interface paradigms that might well be gone in fifty or a hundred years, but if you give the programmer-archaeologists of the future the Ren'Py documentation and the script of the visual novels themselves, they can write new runtimes if they need them.

[redeyesblackpanda]

There are several ways that DVDs and CDs can be made. One way is through your burner, but the ink degrades over time. The other way is through a master disk form that is used to imprint the material used in disks. It's mostly used for highly commercial things like music CDs for big name people, since it's more cost effective when mass produced. There are certain companies that will create one of those things for you, if you want, but it will be significantly more costly compared to burning (unless you want a few thousand disks, in which case it might be more economical.) That's only if you're looking for some sort of a hard copy though. I suspect it's actually more likely that your stored data will be preserved online, like PyTom suggested, than underground, where it might get destroyed by something like an earthquake or flood.

[TrickWithAKnife]

I'd have to agree. If I discovered your capsule, having the data there would be cool, but having some object with a riddle or clues on it would be even more exciting, especially if I had to get other people involved with trying to figure it out.

[Lekhaka]

Global news headline in 2653:

ANCIENT FILIPINO ARTEFACT FOUND, CONTAINING DIGITAL COPY OF FABLED "Bishoujo Game"

"Mugen Artefact" MAY SHED LIGHT ON HUMAN COURTSHIP BEHAVIOUR IN 21st CENTURY, ANTHROPOLOGISTS SAY

[Taleweaver]

I'd have to agree. If I discovered your capsule, having the data there would be cool, but having some object with a riddle or clues on it would be even more exciting, especially if I had to get other people involved with trying to figure it out.

The puzzle would be to figure out how to get the code running. I suppose in 2600 or so, Python code will be as obscure as Egyptian hieroglyphs before the Rosetta stone..

I took the liberty of asking the Internet Archive if they'd be willing to host a visual novel collection for us. They answered in the affirmative - as long as we can come up with more than 50 visual novels to upload, they'd be willing to create a collection to contain them. I think this is a project we - as a community - should undertake, as I'm frankly scared by how many visuals were lost when megaupload went down, and how many are on precarious hosting currently, and might be lost due to hardware failure, business failure, or any of a number of problems.

50 VNs? Well, in that case, I'd like to pitch in at least one of mine. For literary value, "The Thirteenth Year" would probably be the best choice, though I'd love to prank whoever sees this in the future and enter "Daemonophilia". ^_^

[Donmai]

Among that 50 VNs I would like to include my current project, "The Maker". It is a VN partly inspired by the song "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans. As they say in the beginning of that song:

"In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find" ... a 21st Century VN interesting (or my story predictions very laughable).

[Greeny]

Couldn't you punch holes in gold and include schematics for an old-timey card-reader computer?