To Girls: Concerning games lacking Female Perspective

[Vialixia]

Visual Novels are not mainstream games, so it's hard to compare them to AAA titles.

As a generalisation females like: a good storyline, diverse character types, and short bursts of gameplay (sometimes). It think it's not true to say female players 'don't know what they want.' I've just summed it up. It's not a difficult thing to deliver but it's something that the visual novel community mostly always delivers because it has to. If the storyline was crap, all the characters were the same, and you had to play it for hours to become even remotely engaged in the story, your visual novel would be crap. But it's not always the same for AAA. They like to stick to what's safe, and what they know will sell.

Visual novels are also largely indie so they don't rely on crass marketing techniques that can often put off female players. What I said about female players also ties in well with what Taleweaver said, and what many others have said female players want in this thread. I can talk about AAA titles because I've only ever worked on them, until now.

[Aines445]

Strange. Most of the women I talk to seem to know what they want, even in terms of gaming. I seem to find a general consensus that games should be

a) cooperative instead of competetive
b) constructive instead of destructive
c) more character-centric than plot-centric

Really? The girls that I talk to or know what they want, or they don't say anything because they DON'T KNOW, I for example, really don't know exactly. I really have to agree with dramspringfeald. Mostly because guys have always had their rights, so everyone has a general idea of what THEY would want (Sorry for the capslock, I just find that better for emphasis), or their target audience. But girls on the other hand, now in present day, have more rights, so they can now do diverse things, so now there really isn't a general idea of what girls would want, as there now really isn't a role model to follow on women, so they don't really now what THAT target audience would want. Like how I agree the most with c), and I wouldn't like b), but other girls would, since there are girly girls, and girls that just like other things (Like me XD). But really, there are a lot of games for girls being made, so at least 1 should be liked by girls in general. But I don't really know of other girl gamers in my real-life, and if they're gamers, they play assassins creed XD.

[9-of-Hearts]

I personally want a strong story, characters, and world. That's mostly all I ask.
I hate to see what has been done to Samus, although at least she's still the same in Super Smash Bros.
I love mentally strong girls, with wit and willpower, but I want to see more kick-ass sword-fighting women. With actual armor. Not the friggin support healers/mages/whatever all the time.

Strange. Most of the women I talk to seem to know what they want, even in terms of gaming. I seem to find a general consensus that games should be
a) cooperative instead of competitive
b) constructive instead of destructive
c) more character-centric than plot-centric

a) I'm more competitive, myself. Most the female gamers I know are, but some go a lot more shooter than I do. But I'm not FPS-competitive at least. More racing, Pokemon, Mortal Kombat/SSB style brawling (in the case of Mortal Kombat, actual useful clothes on the women), and hack-and-slash sword-fighting more like an RPG or LoZ. I want to play Final Fantasy, especially XIII--I hear Lightning is an awesome (bamf female) character.
b) Personally, I hate mindless games like Farmville. Most the girls I know who are active gamers play more "destructive" games, like shooters, brawling, monster battling, thriller/horror (ick). And myself, I love Harvest Moon (an arguably more cooperative/constructive game), but I mainly mine gems in there because more money in shorter time (assuming you have the food for energy) and farming is much more tedious than I like. I mainly play for the otome parts.
c) And this I can't disagree with, based on myself and my friends. But the characters' stories have to be extra strong if the plot really is lacking. Actually, I just want a really good story, no matter, but don't like flat characters.

I sort of feel like there's two types of girl gamers, the hardcore (normal to me) ones who like typically guy-marketed games and may just want many more strong female protagonists in this same area, and for lack of a better description the other gamers who I picture as more otome and visual novel gamers. Sort of solely story-focused ones. But even though there's a couple of types that I can think of, they can and do coexist sometimes. I'm a mix myself.
I feel like the girls on Farmville and puzzle/hidden object gamers (like my mom, on the latter) are casual gamers where it really doesn't matter about gender differences.

Actually, I think Vialixia describes the situation sort of best. ^^;; I get wordy and forget what I'm saying.

[Aines445]

I personally want a strong story, characters, and world. That's mostly all I ask.
I hate to see what has been done to Samus, although at least she's still the same in Super Smash Bros.
I love mentally strong girls, with wit and willpower, but I want to see more kick-ass sword-fighting women. With actual armor. Not the friggin support healers/mages/whatever all the time.

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE. I totally agree. I would really like to see some super strong sword-wielding women as protagonists. It's not that we don't want them mentally strong too (More the opposite, we REALLY want mentally strong girls), it's more they are always healers or support characters, and aren't that mentally strong. Women should kick ass and wield swords and guns too!!

Strange. Most of the women I talk to seem to know what they want, even in terms of gaming. I seem to find a general consensus that games should be
a) cooperative instead of competitive
b) constructive instead of destructive
c) more character-centric than plot-centric

a) I'm more competitive, myself. Most the female gamers I know are, but some go a lot more shooter than I do. But I'm not FPS-competitive at least. More racing, Pokemon, Mortal Kombat/SSB style brawling (in the case of Mortal Kombat, actual useful clothes on the women), and hack-and-slash sword-fighting more like an RPG or LoZ. I want to play Final Fantasy, especially XIII--I hear Lightning is an awesome (bamf female) character.
b) Personally, I hate mindless games like Farmville. Most the girls I know who are active gamers play more "destructive" games, like shooters, brawling, monster battling, thriller/horror (ick). And myself, I love Harvest Moon (an arguably more cooperative/constructive game), but I mainly mine gems in there because more money in shorter time (assuming you have the food for energy) and farming is much more tedious than I like. I mainly play for the otome parts.
c) And this I can't disagree with, based on myself and my friends. But the characters' stories have to be extra strong if the plot really is lacking. Actually, I just want a really good story, no matter, but don't like flat characters.

a) As I was saying (Or maybe trying to say), I haven't really seen that most girls fit those parameters (If I'm saying it correctly), as for example, I like more competitive than cooperative, because sometimes the people you cooperate are stupid (SOMETIMES but other times it's really fun), so I like winning against others. Really? What I saw of Lightning was just a cold woman that cared(/s) about her sister and (Maybe??) the others and wields a gun-blade. I don't really think she's an awesome female protagonsit.
b) Also like I like destructive more than constructive. I want to kill stuff!! But as a girl, meaning not really the same as the games for guys (Like I don't like Call of Duty), but my mother plays constructive games and hates destructive ones. I guess were two very different gamers? (She doesn't like Farmville and those games).
c) Even if I totally agree with this myself, and in here I see a lot of people agree, the girls I know in real life only enjoy a game for its gameplay. No seriously, for some reason, they love Assassins creed, Uncharted 3, and Mass Effect, FOR ITS GAMEPLAY. Is it that different of a culture I wonder?

I sort of feel like there's two types of girl gamers, the hardcore (normal to me) ones who like typically guy-marketed games and may just want many more strong female protagonists in this same area, and for lack of a better description the other gamers who I picture as more otome and visual novel gamers. Sort of solely story-focused ones. But even though there's a couple of types that I can think of, they can and do coexist sometimes. I'm a mix myself.
I feel like the girls on Farmville and puzzle/hidden object gamers (like my mom, on the latter) are casual gamers where it really doesn't matter about gender differences.

Yeah, I'm a mix between those two too. Like I have always liked RPGs since I was little, and I almost fit the first one, except I'm too character-focused, and like Otome games too, as I grew up with RPGs made for guys and started to like otome games a lot recently, I'm a mix between those two.(Damn I pretty much repeated myself XD) But the difference is that I'm not story-focused, I'm really just character-focused. But I honestly think you were absolutely right, though, REALLY ^-^.

[Tsundere Lightning]

Actually, there is a way to measure female perspective, it's called the Bechdel test. It's a test first brought up by a female comic book artist and is originally applicable to movies. The test is simple.

1. There are 2 female characters.
2. That talk to each other.
3. About something other than a man.

While a game or movie passing the Alison Bechdel Test is almost always a good sign, it's not enough. Twilight: New Moon passes it, and the thoughts of Bella in the (heterosexual) romance scenes absent of context read like Bella getting raped. I'm not exaggerating: read them yourself if you don't believe me.

The key is to have a plot that centers around a woman's goals rather than her relationships to men. (Perceptive readers will note a grey area there. That grey area is the romance genre.)

A huge problem with the whole "female perspective" thing is this massive confusion about the difference between a power fantasy and sexualization. Basically, if the pose and costume of a female character would look effing ludicrous if Hawkeye from the Avengers did it, it's probably sexualized. If it wouldn't, it's probably not.

I am, of course, a male, so take this with a grain of salt.

[SundownKid]

A huge problem with the whole "female perspective" thing is this massive confusion about the difference between a power fantasy and sexualization. Basically, if the pose and costume of a female character would look effing ludicrous if Hawkeye from the Avengers did it, it's probably sexualized. If it wouldn't, it's probably not.

I am, of course, a male, so take this with a grain of salt.

I can think of an exception if the character has the personality of a temptress, you wouldn't say Catwoman looks ridiculous making a sexualized pose, it's her specialty. But, I doubt someone would give all their characters those poses if they didn't specifically intend to appeal to their male readers. Combine this with the fact that male superheroes wear tights and make silly poses, and it's a bit of a flimsy argument that only female heroes are sexualized.

[CaseyLoufek]

Going to chime in with what I found when looking over some game design texts and studies covering this subject.

Most women [disclaimer: I know nothing about women] have sexual desires as well as a desire to be sexually appealing. Removing this aspect removes part of who the women is. (Though obviously nobody would particularly care how sexually appealing they are during a zombie apocalypse.) Sexual desire and appeal is but one aspect of a woman and they can't define who she is alone. Even the most shallow, ditzy woman has her own history, desires and fears. In short, women are people. I don't think it's necessary to discuss female specific issues or have a female player character in order to present their perspective, though it's still worth looking out for - you probably do want to examine them when they're relevant.

In research studies women seem to prefer sexually appealing female characters over ones who aren't. Making a female character that exists as nothing but eye candy or carrot to be chased tends to be the deal breaker for women. So if you want to reach the widest audience you want characters that are sexually appealing but also developed characters.

Strange. Most of the women I talk to seem to know what they want, even in terms of gaming. I seem to find a general consensus that games should be

a) cooperative instead of competetive
b) constructive instead of destructive
c) more character-centric than plot-centric

The studies I've looked at mostly focused on a) and the results seem to be less about an absence of competition and on the presence of cooperative since they are not mutually exclusive. Specifically a lot of games, particularly older games, have a you against the world atmosphere. Often this was a limit of budget or technology but it can create a very lonely hostile atmosphere. This works for something like Doom or Myst but other games would benefit from social interaction of some kind. Even games like Doom and Quake 2 gain a lot from coop and teamplay deathmatch. The total isolation set up tends to be a bigger turn-off for female players than male ones. Of course unless the setting requires isolation having some player-player or player-npc social interaction is considered a plus by all players.

The bottom line is that male and female players don't so much prefer different things as put different emphasis on them. You have the same list of desired qualities, just in a somewhat different order.

[papillon]

I can think of an exception if the character has the personality of a temptress, you wouldn't say Catwoman looks ridiculous making a sexualized pose, it's her specialty.

When did "seductress" become Catwoman's speciality to you? It's certainly not at the root of the character as I knew her from the classic comics (She had a hood and cape, like Batman!) and the animated series. The 60s TV show Catwoman was certainly flirtatious, but she'd *still* look ridiculous in the stuff that gets mocked lately.

(Of course, there's the issue of how commonly people write in "seductress" bits onto female characters as they go along (or require female police officers to infiltrate strip clubs) compared to how commonly they do the same with male ones...)

Now, some versions of Catwoman look perfectly reasonable in some poses that would make Hawkeye look silly for the same reason that Spiderman looks reasonable in those poses - she's often been written as the sort of person who climbs walls and perches on things.

But yes, there have been multiple instances lately where images of Catwoman have been roundly mocked for being ludicrously distorted out of all reason in the name of supposed sexiness. Even if her character were based on nothing but being sexy - which it certainly wasn't to begin with, even if it is now, which I can't comment on - the things they've done to her were STILL ridiculous.

But, I doubt someone would give all their characters those poses if they didn't specifically intend to appeal to their male readers.

Yes. That's exactly the argument. That they are thinking solely about male readers.

Combine this with the fact that male superheroes wear tights and make silly poses, and it's a bit of a flimsy argument that only female heroes are sexualized.

... tights and silly poses which are not at all designed to be sexy to women, but to show off their strength. This isn't secret or guesswork, this is openly stated in artists guidelines.

[Obscura]

Combine this with the fact that male superheroes wear tights and make silly poses, and it's a bit of a flimsy argument that only female heroes are sexualized.

... tights and silly poses which are not at all designed to be sexy to women, but to show off their strength. This isn't secret or guesswork, this is openly stated in artists guidelines.

This about a million times. Big muscular guys are primarily drawn to appeal to men.

Even if the men were drawn in terms of sexual appeal, there are some pretty massive disparities in preference based on gender. If you want more clear cut examples, look at the difference between bara and yaoi, which are drawn to appeal to a majority male and majority female audiences, respectively. There's quite a gap between the Gears-of-War Bara muscle studs vs. slimmer, hairless, Yaoi guys.

[PyTom]

Edit: Deleted my post, since it was off-mandate, about Batman.

Let's try to keep this confined to VNs and story-based games - it's probably for the best.

[Viniciuskk]

This about a million times. Big muscular guys are primarily drawn to appeal to men.

Even if the men were drawn in terms of sexual appeal, there are some pretty massive disparities in preference based on gender. If you want more clear cut examples, look at the difference between bara and yaoi, which are drawn to appeal to a majority male and majority female audiences, respectively. There's quite a gap between the Gears-of-War Bara muscle studs vs. slimmer, hairless, Yaoi guys.

You, sir, have made a VERY good point. Kudos! Indeed, I've never seen a "Kratos-shaped" yaoi character. (Probably because I don't watch Yaoi, but seriously, I think it would be disturbing even for women.)

I agree with PyTom. Although we're still in the perspectives topic, we're talking about movies now

But I get the point to make my game.

*being engulfed by the light of enlighment*

[dramspringfeald]

See I'll use the New Avatar as an example.

The animation team was almost shut down many times because it had a Strong Female Lead. That was it not that the story was good or bad, not that it was well done but simply because the main character was female. See There is an "old" saying in animation that says "Men will not watch a show with strong Female leads but Women will watch shows with strong Male leads" and that has been the main problem that has plagued almost every brand of entertainment.

About the only way to get past this problem would be to do to gaming what Clamp did to anime. which at the time was really nothing more then Robots and Dirty monsters... Sure Clamp was responsible for that too but still. Lets get some All Female A or AAA games out there.

*Side tangent Korra was based off a snowboarder they met while looking to write the next series. Which is awesome by the way!

[Tsundere Lightning]

I can think of an exception if the character has the personality of a temptress, you wouldn't say Catwoman looks ridiculous making a sexualized pose, it's her specialty. But, I doubt someone would give all their characters those poses if they didn't specifically intend to appeal to their male readers. Combine this with the fact that male superheroes wear tights and make silly poses, and it's a bit of a flimsy argument that only female heroes are sexualized.

Even Catwoman would look ludicrous doing that in the middle of combat, though, which is most of what I'm complaining about.

[SundownKid]

Well, if that's true, I guess there isn't much more to say - I'm not really a fan of comics, anyway, graphic novels or manga is more my style. I'm not condoning it in any way, just playing devil's advocate.

I don't think an absence of supposedly sexy and/or ridiculous poses will turn off many male readers as long as the plot and characters are cool.