Women and men

[mikey]

Demanding that women in a business environment wear tight skirts, hose, and high heels while the men get to relax is unfair. Now, in any situation where men are required to wear ties, making women keep to an equally ridiculous dress code is not unfair.

But to be honest, as DaFool mentioned, as a woman you still have infinitely more possibilities - for men there's just a suit and a tie in a serious (not ultra-serious) business environment. You have a dress code, and as a man, you have to wear a suit, which looks the same for everyone (with barely noticeable color variations - colorful ties don't really count) For women, you have lots of options - in a reasonable business environment you can put on just about anything - wear sandals, sleeveless blouses, you name it. There are limits, yes, but you have to admit, the dress options for women are generally a lot broader.

[DaFool]

Oh yeah...

given a chance, I would wear kilts.

[monele]

It does me no harm to wear a long, non-revealing dress to a meeting.

What if you're asked to wear a revealing one? ^^;... Dressing for business is only okay if what you're asked to wear is okay to begin with I think .

As for women having more choice... well, more variety at least... it seems true. Why did it end up like this? Have designers been more interested in making stuff for women? Or are men just not even willing to do something different?
I think women like to spice up things, adding accessories, little personal touches here and there. So yeah, men are not allowed to do that I suppose... that would be girly, and then you'd be gay and then it's the end of the world. Dear... Will there ever be a world where a man can wear a ribbon in his hair and have no one think it's weird? .
Women can now wear pants, and most male clothes. Men? They're stuck with what they already had. And I'm pretty sure women wouldn't mind men changing that... so it's just men blocking themselves from being pretty, pah :p

[papillon]

Sure, and I think it's sexist that places don't want to let men wear skirts, as well. In fact, I think it's safe to say that *I* will not date a boy who is not willing to at least put on a skirt once for my amusement.

I've been enough places where men can wear skirts in public without too much trouble, and kilts are even easier - there's the UtiliKilt that some of my geek friends are quite fond of.

It sucks how boring suits are, men should be able to show more color without being looked at funny.

My everyday business environment complaint is not on my own behalf - I worked in a university, where nobody really cared what we wore (We're interacting with students all day! Who cares?) and I now work for myself. I'm repeating the complaints of others who were required to wear tight skirt, heels, and hose while standing up all day giving presentations, because that was "proper for women". Anyone who's being forced to give presentations should be allowed comfortable shoes!

(Of course, I'd just ignore it and wait to see if they reprimanded me, or get a doctor's note to excuse me. Me in heels would be me with broken ankles.)

[papillon]

What if you're asked to wear a revealing one?

Honestly? If I was legitimately *asked* and the decision was mine and the reasoning behind it was explained, I might go along with it. I can't speak for all women, but certainly most women I've known (and many candidates on the Apprentice type TV shows) are not above using their charms in small ways to influence people.

Many girls I know would have no problem with "Hey, we need to get more attention for our booth. Would you mind wearing something low-cut?" but would be outraged at "This is an important business deal! Get your tits out!"

A lot of charm and schmooze goes into business deals.

[PrettySammy09]

I am not a woman, I am a girl, but I think I have something to say about this topic.

My school has a uniform and girls can wear either pants or skirts. Most girls find the skirts ugly (they have to be to the knee) and instead wear VERY short shorts. They actually rehem the shorts to make them even shorter.

I prefer wearing bermuda shorts (shorts to the knees) and loose polo tops. If I were to categorize myself into a Ren'Ai category, I'd call myself the "smart-alleck tomboy". The one who is usually friends with the hero, but the hero never notices her as a possible romantic interest because she's just too boyish.

However, I have a distinct pride in my femininity. I am proud to be a woman. I found it reprehensible that in Pirates of the Carribean they had Elizabeth Swan turned into a promiscious cross-dressing pirate when she was a self-confident beautiful young woman comfortable with wearing a dress. I felt that it was sending a message to girls: "Wearing a dress is bad. You want to be cool like Elizabeth Swan? Wear pants and act like a man. Oh, and be promiscuous too."

There is nothing wrong with being a woman. I have a friend who actually hates being a girl. She hangs out with only guys and when were were playing girls vs. boys charades at someone's birthday party, she insisted on being on the boy's team.

There is nothing wrong with being a woman and wearing a dress and trying to be sexy. But there is also nothing wrong with wearing bermuda shorts and being practical. I don't want the attention of losers who only like looking at my ass and not my face. That's why I dress the way I do.

Hell, there's always someone who goes for the tomboy, right?

[Counter Arts]

Hmm... wasn't it some sort of fashion in Japan to wear a skirt and jeans underneath at the same time?

I suppose if the 5 degree weather bothers you, there are long socks.

And they have loose socks with sock glue. Always a signal of a fashion concious girl. Like man... I have been reading so much manga and watching so much anime that it has been ingrained in my brain.

[Sailor Kitty]

But to be honest, as DaFool mentioned, as a woman you still have infinitely more possibilities - for men there's just a suit and a tie in a serious (not ultra-serious) business environment. You have a dress code, and as a man, you have to wear a suit, which looks the same for everyone (with barely noticeable color variations - colorful ties don't really count) For women, you have lots of options - in a reasonable business environment you can put on just about anything - wear sandals, sleeveless blouses, you name it. There are limits, yes, but you have to admit, the dress options for women are generally a lot broader.[/quote]

Yes, they are, but I still use suits when I can. Last time I wore a formal dress, The shoulder straps itched, I was really cold, and, well, it was just plain yuck. I don't wear girls clothing anymore. Too tight, keep riding up over my stomach, and I just look better in sporty boys clothes.

In my opion, I'm WAY more comfortable with a gray suit(like business men on tv wear) with bell-bottom pants, and a red tie.

According to the dictionary, I'm a transvistite.

[DaFool]

I found it reprehensible that in Pirates of the Carribean they had Elizabeth Swan turned into a promiscious cross-dressing pirate when she was a self-confident beautiful young woman comfortable with wearing a dress. I felt that it was sending a message to girls: "Wearing a dress is bad. You want to be cool like Elizabeth Swan? Wear pants and act like a man. Oh, and be promiscuous too."

Agreed. Although there was the speech scene in the last movie where she nearly ended up looking like Saber from F/SN (with oriental combat skirt)

Oh, and frumpy clothes have got to go, regardless of what they are, and especially if they're supposed to be uniforms worn on a daily basis.

[papillon]

Wait, kissing one man other than your true love makes you promiscuous? Did I miss something?

Not to mention that apparently the whole point of the ending of movie 3, which was somehow left out of the movie, was that she was FAITHFUL to him for the ten years that he was gone, breaking the curse.

Obviously I look at it from a perspective where having two true loves is a perfectly okay thing, but still, unless I'm forgetting a whole lot of the plot (which is possible) I don't see where you get promiscuous.

[chronoluminaire]

Wait, kissing one man other than your true love makes you promiscuous? Did I miss something?

I was thinking that. I wouldn't even say she has two true loves, and I still wouldn't call her promiscuous. Tempted, perhaps, but faithful!

And as for the very end of movie 3, it's after the end credits - you have to stay and wait for it, which is a really bad decision on the makers' part, because of the >100 people in the cinema when we saw it, only 5 of us stayed to that point o.o;;

[papillon]

(Yeah, I wasn't saying she has two true loves, just that people who pay sufficient amounts of attention to my personal life will have recognised that I'm generally in favor of being able to be faithful to more than one person at once. Therefore that may need to be presented as a qualifier to discussions about promiscuity.)

I did see the part after the credits - my mother raised me to always sit through movie credits as respect to the people who made them - but it didn't exactly *explain* what it *meant* in the cinema cut.

[PrettySammy09]

Well, in my opinion, when you're engaged to someone else and you make out with another guy, I'd call that a little promiscious. True, she didn't sleep with him or anything, and in the third movie she does redeem herself, but the fact that she went for Jack in the first place kind of turned me off. (Especially when one of the plot points of the first movie was that Will and Elizabeth were perfect for each other but couldn't be together because Will was a blacksmith/pirate/prettier than her. But, as a part of the plot, they overcame that and found true love. With the sequel, it seems they just kind of threw that away in order to create a new conflict for the new movie. (However, this is coming from someone who thought that the PotC sequels were a bad idea in the first place.))

When you're exclusive, you should be exclusive. I think Elizabeth Swan became a really bad role model in the second movie. (for reasons stated above).

[papillon]

Well, certainly worthy of a serious talking-to if you're randomly making out with someone else, yes... however in context...

... considering she was doing it to distract him in order to essentially KILL him, I think 'murderous traitor' is a much bigger reason to consider her a negative role model than 'she liplocked somebody else'.

Pretty much everybody lies, cheats, steals, and betrays throughout the sequels, that's part of why I'm annoyed they didn't handle the ending more sensibly. They didn't even mention that her faithfulness could break the curse, unless I missed it. I thought the ten-years-one-day thing was forever, I only found out about the effects when reading reviews afterwards. If they'd handled it right, there could have been some suspense there - everybody's been a traitor this movie, everybody makes promises and breaks them, including her, so how can you depend on her? and then Surprise! she comes through after all.

Anyway, in my book, that's why they weren't very good role models - they were all lying and betraying each other all the time! The kiss itself is not a big deal as far as I'm concerned.

[PyTom]

Not having seen any of the movies in question, let me just point out that pirates are generally not considered model citizens. (IIRC, at one point just being a pirate was enough to get you drawn and quartered.)

Plus, bringing women on ships is unlucky.