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 Post subject: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:07 am 
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The goal of this initiative is to give forum members a way to show each other they are open to honest criticism. By displaying the honest criticism button or text in their signature, members can signal to one another they're looking for honest feedback. This was mostly inspired by this thread as well as TrickWithAKnife's forum signature stating something similar in meaning to the principles listed below. Here's how it works:

  1. By displaying the Honest Criticism Button, I am announcing I want to receive honest feedback.

  2. I want other members to feel comfortable giving me honest feedback.

  3. I understand that not everyone knows how to give proper critiques, and I may receive some feedback that is overly negative or unfair, but I can handle that, because I believe the honest feedback I get will outweigh the negative.

Thanks to LateWhiteRabbit for reworking my rule book epic into the improved and concise points listed above.

---

Critiquing is a skill in itself which is improved over time by giving, receiving and observing criticism. Its goal is to help the creator improve and grow. Here's some links to get started:


---

Put the code below in your signature to add the button or text. Both link back to this thread.

- New button BBtag, courtesy of PyTom
Code:
[url=http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23057][wki]honest_critique.png[/wki][/url]


Honest Critique - text version
Code:
[url=http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23057][color=#408000][b]Honest Critique[/b][/color][/url]

---

Comments, suggestions and critique encouraged. And a big thanks to everyone who has provided feedback so far.

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Last edited by Tempus on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:33 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:50 am 
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Okay, now I admire you... :shock: I think this is a great initiative, and... well, I'm not really good at critiques, so I can't tell you any more. :roll:
I'll probably use it when I release my first VN... although the button is a little scary someway. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:16 am 
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Nice idea! I support it!

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:21 am 
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Sounds like a neat idea.

(I was gonna say, 'Why need it when they can clearly state it in their post?', but let's see where this goes. I always wanna give critique on art threads, but it's difficult to see if they want critique or not, etc. :V)

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:38 am 
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Should there be some way to opt-out of this for a specific post? For example, a member posts a one-off chibi doodle in their personal art thread but they just want to share it and don't want critique on it because they already have a good idea of how it could be improved or it was just a warm up. I guess they should note it on a per-post basis?

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:22 am 
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Cool, cool, replies!

Nayara NightRoo wrote:
Okay, now I admire you... :shock: I think this is a great initiative, and... well, I'm not really good at critiques, so I can't tell you any more. :roll:
I'll probably use it when I release my first VN... although the button is a little scary someway. :oops:

Glad to hear it :) I think critiquing is a skill in itself. You'll get better the more you learn and try it. I've also found critiquing others teaches me a lot about myself. It can be a little scary, though I've noticed I'm usually most nervous anticipating critique, rather than receiving it. The people who critique others (mostly) just want to help.

chocojax wrote:
(I was gonna say, 'Why need it when they can clearly state it in their post?', but let's see where this goes. I always wanna give critique on art threads, but it's difficult to see if they want critique or not, etc. :V)

Yep, that's exactly why I created the signature display -- in posts ranging from over a year ago up until the present, I noticed people saying they never knew when someone wanted critique and didn't respond to people anymore because they'd had bad experiences in the past, such as people ignoring the critique, getting upset, or giving rude responses. Happy to hear you like the idea ^.^

Reikun wrote:
Should there be some way to opt-out of this for a specific post? For example, a member posts a one-off chibi doodle in their personal art thread but they just want to share it and don't want critique on it because they already have a good idea of how it could be improved or it was just a warm up. I guess they should note it on a per-post basis?

Originally I had the recruitment & services forum excluded and had considered allowing people to opt out for times they don't want critique.

In the case of recruitment & services I thought it was ultimately best to include it since a.) people sometimes already give unsolicited honest critique there anyway, especially when money is involved and b.) I'd like to be able to see how people recruiting / offering services react to critique since people on both sides are investing time, effort and sometimes money -- it's certainly not a place where you want less criticism. But on the other hand, you don't want recruitment threads to become analyses of works...

The reason I chose not to allow opting out for specific posts is that it's very open to manipulative use. People might simply opt out any time they're anticipating a negative critique. Opt outs with reasoning like "this isn't serious work so I don't need critique" could become a crutch for dodging criticism. Of course, there's other ways to do that -- people could take the button or text in and out of their signature as it pleases them. But at the least, it's not a flaw defended by the guidelines. Then again, if enough people mention it perhaps it would be worth considering -- a good system adapts to the needs of those using it.

Thanks for the comments so far!

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:47 am 
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Thanks for this.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:54 am 
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Ah, might as well put one in my siggy.


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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:36 am 
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It's a terrible idea, and I will never... wait... *checks signature* Damn it!

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Personally, I think this is a great idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Last edited by MaiMai on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:27 pm 
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This initiative won't do much if people don't know how to critique in the first place. I googled a few links that might be good for people new to this:
Maybe include these at the bottom of your post so they're easy to find for newbies?

Also, I ran out of link space so my HC text doesn't link back to this thread :C The 5 links cap is way too little sometimes...


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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Hey gang, PyTom just posted this on his twitter:
Quote:
Can people hold off adding the LSF critique tags for a few hours? I want to add a bbtag for them, but I'm on a jet plane.


Also, echoing CheeryMoya's statement. Critique is also a skill that needs to be learned, and part of improvement isn't just pointing out what can be better, but articulating it in a way that is useful. Those are very, very handy references.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Quote:
Anyone who posts a critique to someone displaying the honest critque button agrees:

Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I never agreed to anything.
This seems iffy to me, if only out of principles.

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 Post subject: Re: Honest Critique
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Greeny wrote:
Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I never agreed to anything.
I thought that part could be entirely left out, since critique by anyone should be valid. (Of course, I understood the, "say X is bad because of Y" rather than "X is bad".)

Also, I kinda feel like this would make certain people look down on members who wouldn't display this in their signature.


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