Honest Critique

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Tempus
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Re: Honest Critique

#31 Post by Tempus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:37 am

TrickWithAKnife wrote:I could be mistaken, but I think the idea came after I added something about feedback to my signature.
To be honest, I just wanted people to know I appreciate constructive criticism. That's all.
You're not mistaken, that's when I first thought of the idea.
Greeny wrote:I wonder if you appreciate the irony of getting critiques to this idea. *flies away*
I'm not sure it's ironic since I asked for feedback including critique in the original post. And by the way, you're sexy. (But why doesn't the button link to a giant rule book defining exactly how sexy you are and under what conditions and wind direction I may call you sexy?)
PyTom wrote:I think it's bad for us to have tons of people's sigs linking to a free photo host. That will lead to massive pain and database queries if the site goes down. I've added a new bbcode that displays a copy of the image hosted on this server.
Cheers, thanks for that. My original plan was to attach the images to the post and then link back to them, allowing for the button to be modified once people added it, but I discovered you can't do that because the width of attachments can't be ascertained. Also, I'll get rid of the bigger button as you said.
PyTom wrote:Re: The actual rules - My current inclination is that less rules are almost always better than more rules, especially in cases like this were you have no actual way of enforcing the rules on other people. (This doesn't seem like something the admin team would bother to intervene in, unless it turned into incivility.) And it's immoral to try to impose rules on people who didn't agree to them - at best, you can make a polite request of them.
Agreed. Concision and assent are important. Thanks for the input!
Jason wrote:1. I don't like the design because I believe a simple logo/symbol linking to this article may suffice, or variety in sizes where it doesn't show itself as a huge banner or interfere with other signature's design. Having the "Honest Critique" word in a sig is just too cheesy for me, so sorry (I mean, mine's cheesy already, then adding more cheese is just too much xD ).
2. I love the purpose of this, but at the same time, I can't listen to too many people otherwise the project may be delayed because of changes people may ask that I no longer feel that it's my team's project. I have to limit my ears to my friends for now.
Regarding 1., I'm not sure the smallest button is a huge banner. (The one at the top of the OP isn't intended for signature use, it's just there so people have a full, lossless version to make an edit.) I can understand you thinking it a little cheesy, but I couldn't think of any way to word it while still keeping it's intended meaning clear and the button small. I chose to create a button because I didn't think the text alone would be taken to well.

As for 2., that's understandable, though I don't think this will cause a massive increase in the number of received critiques per person, but who knows. It's up to you.

@fleet: CheeryMoya has more or less said what I think too.

---

Also, I've updated the OP a little; removed the medium sized button and added PyTom's BBtag. I'll get around to posting some revised points and see what people think. Thanks for the replies so far everyone.
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Re: Honest Critique

#32 Post by Tempus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:39 am

Alright, I got around to editing the OP. It's now much more concise and hopefully more agreeable and useful. I revised the post based on the feedback so far and asked myself the following:

Why did I create the honest criticism button?
I wanted members to have a way to show each other they were open to honest criticism.

What’s the alternative to my current post that accounts for feedback so far?
  • Statement of the purpose of the initiative and some basic context.
  • Clear and concise guidelines which are assented to on an individual basis.
  • An explanation of criticism being a skill and an index of guides for improving one’s own critiquing.
How would the alternative look?
I think LWR’s set of principles work best. The central meaning is preserved, the potentially harmful or irksome aspects are removed, it’s voluntary, and it’s concise. By doing a side-by-side comparison of my OP guidelines and LWR’s, I noticed that my choice of words made it sound very top-down, "you agree to this", whereas his are voluntary "I announce / want / understand." A lot of the other paragraphs didn't contribute much considering the length they added and so they've been removed.

Tell me what you guys think.
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Re: Honest Critique

#33 Post by Greeny » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:55 am

Now that it's down to the basics, I think it's a great idea.

Although people could still just put a clause in their post on a case-to-case basis, the point could be made that some might want to dedicate 100% of post space to sexy screenshots.
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Re: Honest Critique

#34 Post by Didules » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:06 am

... Now I think this is pure genius :) The "rules" are easy to understand, I don't think they'll raise a polemic, there won't be a "GBM" sect, the button is much more discreet, everything seems great :) Chapeau bas!

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Re: Honest Critique

#35 Post by Jason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:53 pm

Also, there should be some qualifications for the BGM, what if the person doesn't share their artwork portfolio or anything about themselves, at all? It must be required that the one who speaks is proven to be a graphics artist(either by linking their gallery or projects involved in) if they're gonna critique others' work too. Or in the case of writing, there needs to be at least a work in progress with playable demo or a fanfic available to be read online or so. Demo reel for music and so on so forth.

This way, nobody can just simply sign up an account, add a button, critique, then poof! Gone!
I just find it so unnerving if the case is the person doesn't wanna show anything about their work , but critiques endlessly on other's efforts.
I believe the one being critiqued can decide better if they'll listen to or not based from the credibility/ability of the ones providing critique.
All I'm asking for is...
If I wanna get critique about my bicycle riding, I'll take advice from one who really rides a bike (amateur or pro) rather than just a person who saw how it works from videos or books/manuals.
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Re: Honest Critique

#36 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:22 pm

Jason wrote:Also, there should be some qualifications for the BGM, what if the person doesn't share their artwork portfolio or anything about themselves, at all? It must be required that the one who speaks is proven to be a graphics artist(either by linking their gallery or projects involved in) if they're gonna critique others' work too. Or in the case of writing, there needs to be at least a work in progress with playable demo or a fanfic available to be read online or so. Demo reel for music and so on so forth.

This way, nobody can just simply sign up an account, add a button, critique, then poof! Gone!
I just find it so unnerving if the case is the person doesn't wanna show anything about their work , but critiques endlessly on other's efforts.
I believe the one being critiqued can decide better if they'll listen to or not based from the credibility/ability of the ones providing critique.
All I'm asking for is...
If I wanna get critique about my bicycle riding, I'll take advice from one who really rides a bike (amateur or pro) rather than just a person who saw how it works from videos or books/manuals.
What you are asking for is to reinstate the exact problem this Honest Critique button was designed to eliminate. You are saying, "Hey, don't tell me I didn't do this well unless you can prove to me you can do it better." And that isn't fair or realistic. The button is to make people feel MORE comfortable giving critiques to members displaying it, not become nervous wrecks that the GBM is going to turn around and counterattack their qualifications.

Someone doesn't need to be an expert to notice where you need improvement. You can recognize a bad movie without making films for Sundance. You can recognize plot holes and poor characterization without being a published author. You can see bad anatomy or perspective without being an accomplished artist. To take your analogy about bikes, I don't to know anything about riding a bike to point out you are wobbling all over the place. I may not be able to tell you how to fix it, but I can point out where you need to improve.

If someone is really an amateur in a subject they are critiquing you on, they won't notice what needs improvement. No one is going to point something out unless it bothers them.

What you are doing is looking for a classic safety net. You want an "out" from the criticism - a reason to ignore it. That is why I suggested to Tempus to remove the conditions for people posting critiques to GBMs. You want the ability to critique a person back when they do it to you, to give yourself a mental escape hatch from taking the criticism to heart. "How dare they tell me my anatomy needs work? I saw their DeviantArt account! They can't draw good anatomy either!" To that I say, "Who better to know?"

To be honest, it sounds like you may not be someone who wants to display the Honest Critique button just yet. Despite you saying it "unnerves you" to receive critique from people that may be amateurs, what it appears really unnerves you is receiving critique at all. You can spot is someone is being an obvious troll so you need not worry about that. ALL critiques from every skill level (or nonexistent skill level) are valid. People will not speak up unless they are bothered. Someone may tell you the arm on your character is too short, but, you say, if they were an artist, they would know you were employing foreshortening. But their criticism remains valid, because it tells you that to a lot of lay people, the arm looks wrong. So that is still something to look at and see if you can improve it so it reads correctly to everyone at a glance.

The Honest Criticism button is something you adopt for yourself, not impose conditions on others for.

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Re: Honest Critique

#37 Post by Jason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:32 pm

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
Jason wrote:Also, there should be some qualifications for the BGM, what if the person doesn't share their artwork portfolio or anything about themselves, at all? It must be required that the one who speaks is proven to be a graphics artist(either by linking their gallery or projects involved in) if they're gonna critique others' work too. Or in the case of writing, there needs to be at least a work in progress with playable demo or a fanfic available to be read online or so. Demo reel for music and so on so forth.

This way, nobody can just simply sign up an account, add a button, critique, then poof! Gone!
I just find it so unnerving if the case is the person doesn't wanna show anything about their work , but critiques endlessly on other's efforts.
I believe the one being critiqued can decide better if they'll listen to or not based from the credibility/ability of the ones providing critique.
All I'm asking for is...
If I wanna get critique about my bicycle riding, I'll take advice from one who really rides a bike (amateur or pro) rather than just a person who saw how it works from videos or books/manuals.
What you are asking for is to reinstate the exact problem this Honest Critique button was designed to eliminate. You are saying, "Hey, don't tell me I didn't do this well unless you can prove to me you can do it better." And that isn't fair or realistic. The button is to make people feel MORE comfortable giving critiques to members displaying it, not become nervous wrecks that the GBM is going to turn around and counterattack their qualifications.

Someone doesn't need to be an expert to notice where you need improvement. You can recognize a bad movie without making films for Sundance. You can recognize plot holes and poor characterization without being a published author. You can see bad anatomy or perspective without being an accomplished artist. To take your analogy about bikes, I don't to know anything about riding a bike to point out you are wobbling all over the place. I may not be able to tell you how to fix it, but I can point out where you need to improve.

If someone is really an amateur in a subject they are critiquing you on, they won't notice what needs improvement. No one is going to point something out unless it bothers them.

What you are doing is looking for a classic safety net. You want an "out" from the criticism - a reason to ignore it. That is why I suggested to Tempus to remove the conditions for people posting critiques to GBMs. You want the ability to critique a person back when they do it to you, to give yourself a mental escape hatch from taking the criticism to heart. "How dare they tell me my anatomy needs work? I saw their DeviantArt account! They can't draw good anatomy either!" To that I say, "Who better to know?"

To be honest, it sounds like you may not be someone who wants to display the Honest Critique button just yet. Despite you saying it "unnerves you" to receive critique from people that may be amateurs, what it appears really unnerves you is receiving critique at all. You can spot is someone is being an obvious troll so you need not worry about that. ALL critiques from every skill level (or nonexistent skill level) are valid. People will not speak up unless they are bothered. Someone may tell you the arm on your character is too short, but, you say, if they were an artist, they would know you were employing foreshortening. But their criticism remains valid, because it tells you that to a lot of lay people, the arm looks wrong. So that is still something to look at and see if you can improve it so it reads correctly to everyone at a glance.

The Honest Criticism button is something you adopt for yourself, not impose conditions on others for.
Before things escalate I wanna say that English ain't my main language so if there are misused words... I'm gonna apologize in advance:

Yes I'm talking about the technical side, not the obvious ones.
I know someone doesn't have to be a cake king to tell that the cake tastes great or it's a lie.
It can be possible that it's not just the person's taste, and the entitlement kicks in.
I did say it helps as a factor, but I didn't mean that entirely.
Heck I always listen to critiques as long as they're reasonable.
Maybe I'm just too pessimistic about the feature rather than think about the help it offers.
I just didn't like the entitlement (maybe not the right term) and the privilege it gives instantaneously to anyone.
And as for critiquing back, I kinda get what you're at now. I'm not exactly intending to make a critique back but say this is the situation:
when it comes to more technical side, like critiquing the lighting for example, when all they have in their gallery are incorrectly lit scenes. It doesn't mean that I'll mock them because of that, it's just a bit of a doubt, then if another person goes in and added input as well, I'll be counting it as another factor whether it's positive or not.
There are cases when critiques conflict one another and I just have to weigh factors who's more viable, and that's the time I'll take their portfolio into consideration.

So I'm not entirely neglecting anybody. It's just the thing - what if both of them doesn't have anything to show when they just discuss what's right or wrong for me, who will I follow?

But besides that, it can be a possible qualification enough that the person is a long time member in Lemma or very active in the art thread or so.
I'm fine with any qualifications as long as there's something as a filter. I just can't accept that it goes to a random newbie who doesn't show anything, but again this might be just me.

Well anyway, I'll give it a try - see how things goes and trust you guys.
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Re: Honest Critique

#38 Post by Tempus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:15 pm

Jason wrote:I'm fine with any qualifications as long as there's something as a filter. I just can't accept that it goes to a random newbie who doesn't show anything, but again this might be just me.
The honest critique only applies to the person displaying the button / text in their signature. So when I display it I'm saying "hey everyone, feel free to critique me" but I'm only speaking for myself. If I put something in my signature I don't think that should limit the ability of someone to respond to me in any context. That was the oversight on my part with the (original) pledge.

Ultimately, I think a critique stands on its own, independent of the author. I don't mind if people point out what they notice about my work right away which aren't necessarily helpful, provided they're not rude or condescending about it. If someone finds something comical about my work that wasn't intended to be, then that's something I want to know regardless of the person's skill level. Sure, there will be critique which isn't very helpful at times, but as long as it's not harmful I still see myself gaining something.
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Re: Honest Critique

#39 Post by Jason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:32 pm

Tempus wrote:
Jason wrote:I'm fine with any qualifications as long as there's something as a filter. I just can't accept that it goes to a random newbie who doesn't show anything, but again this might be just me.
The honest critique only applies to the person displaying the button / text in their signature. So when I display it I'm saying "hey everyone, feel free to critique me" but I'm only speaking for myself. If I put something in my signature I don't think that should limit the ability of someone to respond to me in any context. That was the oversight on my part with the (original) pledge.

Ultimately, I think a critique stands on its own, independent of the author. I don't mind if people point out what they notice about my work right away which aren't necessarily helpful, provided they're not rude or condescending about it. If someone finds something comical about my work that wasn't intended to be, then that's something I want to know regardless of the person's skill level. Sure, there will be critique which isn't very helpful at times, but as long as it's not harmful I still see myself gaining something.
Oh right, I think what I've read was the original. It's all good now, I guess I'll just have to see how this turns out and just brace myself.


EDIT: OH and one last thing... May I suggest words to use for this button? It's misleading at the moment imo. Maybe
"Promote Honest Criticism" ?
But that's a bit too wordy.
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Re: Honest Critique

#40 Post by Semienigma » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:21 am

Hmm...I may do this. I am scared of critique, I'm not going to lie. But I know its necessary to improvement.
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Re: Honest Critique

#41 Post by Elmiwisa » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:42 pm

Oh wow. I did not notice this is here till now. It is nice to see one of my thread contribute to the start of this movement at least. :D
Hope to see more creator seeing this and joining this. I am not joining it yet though, not until my first WIP thread, which is probably would take another 5 months. :( It just seems premature to say I accept honest critique when I have nothing for people to critique on. :oops:

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Re: Honest Critique

#42 Post by Green Glasses Girl » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:35 pm

I really like this idea. I think the only way for me to improve is to get blunt feedback. I will be adding it to my sig!
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Re: Honest Critique

#43 Post by Tempus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:17 pm

Jason wrote:Oh right, I think what I've read was the original. It's all good now, I guess I'll just have to see how this turns out and just brace myself. [...] May I suggest words to use for this button? It's misleading at the moment imo. Maybe "Promote Honest Criticism"? But that's a bit too wordy.
Ah, glad to hear you like the updated version. As for what you say about the choice of words, I agree that if someone unfamiliar with this thread saw it they'd probably have no idea what it meant. Originally I had it phrased, "I promote honest critiques" but... when I asked myself whether *I* would be willing to put that in my signature the answer was a definitive "no" -- way too corny! There's also the issue of readability and signature space. In the end I just linked it back to this thread. I decided it was more likely to be embraced if it was short, memorable and didn't occupy too much space.
Semienigma wrote:Hmm...I may do this. I am scared of critique, I'm not going to lie. But I know its necessary to improvement.
I look at it this way: it's less scary to know what I'm doing wrong that to not know. At least once I know where I'm going wrong I have a place to start.
Elmiwisa wrote:I am not joining it yet though, not until my first WIP thread, which is probably would take another 5 months. :( It just seems premature to say I accept honest critique when I have nothing for people to critique on. :oops:
I thought something similar since the only instances of my work are in my recruitment thread which isn't exactly the best place to critique something. I just put it in my sig so that I don't forget to later when I create a WIP thread or whatever for my work. (That, and I kind of started this thread so it'd be odd if I didn't follow my own suggestion.)
Last edited by Tempus on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Honest Critique

#44 Post by Caveat Lector » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:29 pm

I'll wait until I actually have something up, but I'll keep this in mind for the future. :)
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Re: Honest Critique

#45 Post by Elmiwisa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:15 pm

I just dig a bit around and it turns out this is the issue that had come up multiple times in the past already :shock: such as this (note: old and long thread). That might be why PyTom sounds excited about this one. I hope this movement gain more momentum.

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