What do you think of individual character stories for otome?

[Googaboga]

Oh good :3. If that doesn't apply to the game your friend is working on than don't worry about it. Not every game needs to be a soap opera with shocking twists at every moment .

[Ferdokki]

Well, we have some pretty shocking twists for our plot/characters, and we've tried and worked really hard to come up with non-cliché things. With that being said, I kinda don't want to throw out the shockers in the prologue.

We were thinking about putting in a lot of (realistic) drama into the prologue, and that hopefully players would be interested in continuing onto routes once they finished the prologue.

Do you think that's a good idea?

[Googaboga]

"Drama" can mean a lot of different things so I'm not entirely sure if it is a good idea or not. But as long as it is well done than yeah I think that could help get players invested. I'm personally pretty picky about drama but when it works it really works :3.

[Ferdokki]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of drama do you like/prefer?

[Caveat Lector]

The kind that's genuine and feels like a natural part of the story, not the kind that aims solely to jerk tears. If I may ask, would it be possible for me to give some recommendations for your friend?

[Rozume]

Well, we have some pretty shocking twists for our plot/characters, and we've tried and worked really hard to come up with non-cliché things

I'd be careful about putting about putting too many plot/character twists - it might come off as artificial. Especially if your audience can see them from a mile away. Granted, you can foreshadow and hint at them... but they have to be very subtle.

I agree with Caveat Lector; drama should come out as natural and intrinsic to your story.

I think the best way to hook readers in is to have compelling characters with wants, goals, and motivations. You can have an amazing plot, but it'll be pointless if you have bland characters.

[trooper6]

I wrote a whole long response...but it got lost.

Anyhow, to answer your question--what do I consider "something different."

When I say, "something different," I don't mean "Oh there's a shocking twist!" I mean that the game offers something different from what VNs normally offer.

Some examples of what I mean:

*Digital: A Love Story--An epistolary VN with a completely different interface and makes you think.
*The Elevator--A noir thriller (new genre!) with a non-anime artwork.
*Cinders--A feminist retelling of Cinderella with gorgeous non-anime artwork and where the choices you make cause hundreds of little branches.
*Cave Cave Deus Videt!--Art unlike I've seen and really fascinating intellectually challenging game.
*Facetime--Subtle exploration of a psychological condition...and the abstract art works perfectly for this theme. Very cool.
*Magical Diary--This is a high school romance game with anime art, yes. So what's new about it? It isn't that they have magic. It is a combination of things: Dungeon Crawling Sections that can be solved in various ways depending on the combinations of magical skills you've chosen--and a deconstruction of the fascination with the "bad boy." The author clearly had done her reading about unhealthy relationships...and I appreciate that greatly. That was a real twist--a romantic game that prioritizes friendship and that understands that people who isolate you from your friends, make you keep secrets, etc...they are unhealthy predators not romantic Heathcliffs. Good job there.

Those are just examples. But, if it is going to be a romance game it is going to have to be pretty special for me to want to pay money for it. Mainly because most romance games (and romantic comedies), I find not romantic, but offensive.

[Ferdokki]

@Caveat Lector: Sure, be my guest! My friend reads through the posts on this thread, so she'll read your recommendations. As you can see 2 posts below yours, trooper6 has already listed some examples. You can do the same. =)

@PhoenixStardust: Thanks for the advice! Yes, we are adding goals and motivations for our characters so that players can connect with them. =)
Question: When you say "too many" plot/character twists, how many is too many, in your opinion? Because we have some plot twist ideas, but we might have to change what we have depending on if it's considered too much...

@trooper6: Aw, I'm flattered that you'd take the time to write a long response to my topic. ^__^
I've played "Digital", so I now get an idea of what you mean by "something different". "The Elevator" sounds interesting, and I'd like to check it out. Do you have a link for it? I tried looking it up, but I keep getting some arcade game. I agree that "Cinders" has beautiful artwork! However, I think it's a little too advanced for my friend's art style. I'm also familiar with "Magical Diary", though I don't think our game is going to have any mini-games/dungeon crawling.
In your last comment, you said that you find most romance games are offensive. What do you mean by this?

[Rozume]

A plot/character twist completely changes everything, so too many twists means too many changes. I can't really tell you a definite number for these things, as these things come out naturally so just ask yourself and your friend "Do I really need this to be in there? How will this affect the story?"

[trooper6]

@trooper6: Aw, I'm flattered that you'd take the time to write a long response to my topic. ^__^
I've played "Digital", so I now get an idea of what you mean by "something different". "The Elevator" sounds interesting, and I'd like to check it out. Do you have a link for it? I tried looking it up, but I keep getting some arcade game. I agree that "Cinders" has beautiful artwork! However, I think it's a little too advanced for my friend's art style. I'm also familiar with "Magical Diary", though I don't think our game is going to have any mini-games/dungeon crawling.
In your last comment, you said that you find most romance games are offensive. What do you mean by this?

I love having pleasant conversations with people, so I thank you in return!

Anyhow, here is the link to The Elevator:
http://elevator.cyanide-tea.net

It isn't too long and I guessed the end! but I appreciated the world building and their doing something different.

Anyhow, what do I mean by finding most romance games (and romantic comedy films as well) offensive? Note, I am very passionate about this.

Well, many romance games reinforce sexist gender roles and stereotypes. But also, they often reinforceme behavior as romantic that is, when looking at it objectively, is unhealthy, codependent, and/or sometimes dangerous.

Some guy treating you like crap, being broody, and emotionally unavailable? That isn't romantic. That's abusive.
Yandere? Not romantic. Actually, if somebody I cared about was thinking about dating many of the -dere types, I'd tell them to run far away. Those types are not romantic, they are unhealthy and the relationships depicted are not healthy.

One can also say that this is just fiction, except fiction is often how people come to idealize relationships...and the models are not healthy.

And there is also the more subtle thing I don't appreciate, the subtle message that being single isn't okay. That a person (usually a woman) needs a "the one" that she isn't complete unless paired up...that other accomplishments aren't as important as finding a man. I remember the heroines of 1930's film musicals like 42nd Street...the woman's goal was to get a job...usually on the stage as a star--that was what she worked for. Usually, over the course of the film she also got a boyfriend, but that wasn't her goal in life and the climax was her success on the stage, not the boyfriend. Then we had that huge backlash and after women got the vote, after modern women of the twenties, countries all over started pushing a conservative turn and we get media where women's goals become just to get a man...and usually a man who is sort of a jerk. And the woman has almost no identity post coupling...the coupling is the climax.

So I don't like any of that.

[Rozume]

Well, many romance games reinforce sexist gender roles and stereotypes. But also, they often reinforceme behavior as romantic that is, when looking at it objectively, is unhealthy, codependent, and/or sometimes dangerous.

Some guy treating you like crap, being broody, and emotionally unavailable? That isn't romantic. That's abusive.
Yandere? Not romantic. Actually, if somebody I cared about was thinking about dating many of the -dere types, I'd tell them to run far away. Those types are not romantic, they are unhealthy and the relationships depicted are not healthy.

The only time I really got offended at a romance game is when one of the love interests punched the MC because he got angry with her for doing something risky. I was screaming at my phone for five minutes when that happened.

Hopefully your game won't have any the problems Trooper mentioned... but if it does. Subvert it. Deconstruct it. Kill it with fire.

[trooper6]

The only time I really got offended at a romance game is when one of the love interests punched the MC because he got angry with her for doing something risky. I was screaming at my phone for five minutes when that happened.

Hopefully your game won't have any the problems Trooper mentioned... but if it does. Subvert it. Deconstruct it. Kill it with fire.

One of the love interests punched the MC?! What the?

I support PhoenixStardust here--subvert, deconstruct, and kill with fire those tired old ideas. That founds not only as something new, but also something that supports my politics of gender equality...so I'd definitely support such a game.

[Caveat Lector]

Off the top of my head, to list what your friend may be specifically looking for (releasing a game's story in "chapters"), for starters, there's the Jisei series by Sakebento, which is a continuing mystery series with three, stand-alone stories that ultimately connect as part of one bigger story. The When They Cry franchise is also told through a series of separate arcs, but it's also mainly mystery-horror. Romantically, nothing in particular comes to mind.

But regarding this romance discussion...WTF? No, punching your girlfriend in the face is NOT acceptable. What's really sad and worrying about this is how many people easily fall for stuff like this and think it's "romantic". "Awww, he's worried about her and just wants to protect her! How sweet and romantic!" I'm really, really curious as to where the writers themselves--or rather, this particular writer--got their ideas of "romance" from, though.

[AxemRed]

Jisei and the When They Cry series are episodic, but that's very different from selling individual routes as DLC.

[Ferdokki]

Wow, we're having some very interesting discussions here! n__n

@PhoenixStardust: Thank you so much for all of your advice! =) And wtf, PUNCHING A GIRL??? What game was this???

@trooper6: Hey, thanks for the link! It looks really good! Originally (before I got warped into college), I wanted to make mystery games like that, with non-anime artwork. But, alas! College gives me no time to develop my true interests. u.u Oh, now I completely understand what you mean about getting offended at romantic games like that. I share similar views like that, and I unconsciously don't play/create games like that because in my mind it doesn't seem right, fictional or not. For our game, my friend and I began our MC's personality design with the idea that she is strong and independent. She's not like super-tough (though I really admire MC's like that, such as Sona from "a2"), but she is hard-working and independent, and romance isn't really her first priority. We wanted to avoid the sexist/dependent woman stereotypes. Additionally, we're trying to make our male characters likable as well (likable = normal people); they're not tsundere or yandere, they're like normal people you may come across in your life. Thanks so much for all your input, it's super helpful! =D

@Caveat Lector: I'll pass along the "Jisei" title to my friend (I think you mentioned it in your previous comment as well, so I trust it'll help answer our questions on this thread ^__^). I've played the "When They Cry" games, but the arcs are all together in the game. I was hoping for maybe more examples like "Jisei" or "Miranda's Choice", in which they are sold separately.

@AxemRed: Thanks for the comment! =) Yeah, that's what I was trying to explain in my reply to Caveat Lector, but your explanation seems a lot clearer than mine.