To much 'perfection'...Not enough 'flaws'

[infel]

I love otome games and anime more then anything. In fact, I admit that both have helped me through some difficult times. However, I've come to notice a rather big trend in both of them, along with movies and tv shows. There is to much 'perfection', as in the characters look perfect, and not enough 'flaws' as in they have something that makes them relate to those in actual life. I actually find this to be more in Anime with girls, especially Harem. They are either super skinny and cute, or average height with boobs the size of cars. Not only that, but they have very submissive personalities and that seems to be what the guy want. Now don't get me wrong, I don't need the main girl to be super tough, sassy, or know how to hold a gun, but they need to have a trait I can relate to. Example of this can be with Kimi Ni Todoke. I thing this anime really shows a good character. She nice but shy, and isn't perfect as she some times looks scary. But the guy falls for her because of how she is, and not how she looks like. That's what I love on this series. An example on a higher level would be Attack On Titan- Mikasa is kind of perfect, yet she's really likable because of how strong she is.


My problem with anime and otome games though is that we've seen too many of characters that are skinny, big boobed, buff(for guys), or overall flawless even if they are likable characters. I know this won't happen any time soon, but it would be nice to see some big characters in shows, or even super tall, or kind of weak, or too skinny, or something like that. I know it's pretty that sells these games and anime, but I feel like some need to take the extra mile and have something that shows the true stature of the human body, in that no one can look perfect. There are so many different things that beauty apply to, but stuff like anime, dating sims, and otome games don't really explore that. If you have a character like this, it's okay, but they have to have some trait that we really can relate or at least like. (Example being Mikasa.)
The same goes for movies, and tv shows, though they defiantly have stretched out more in the term of body type and ethnic types.

I don't know if anyone is going to agree with me, and I might be hated for this, but this is how I feel. I just wish that anime, VN's, movies, and TV shows added more of a variety and helped people who don't look like those they see on TV feel better about themselves. In my opinion(and yes this will sound cliche) behind can be with any body type, and is in the eye of the beholder.

Edit-I wanted to say this was caused by a game my friend showed me called Girl's Revolution. Yes, the guys are attracted, but the premise is horrible for that game. Change yourself just for someone to love you? Also, big people don't look like that. I'm wondering why no one has said anything about this game, but praise it for being amazing. Since I'm on the heavy set side, it didn't give me much confidence when I read up on this.
Also, the main character is a great example on a rather bad lead, and the guys, though 'handsome', are jerks. Except for one I believe.

[MaiMai]

With a Japanese oriented medium like anime and VNs, you find that their standard of beauty is kind of, if not very narrow. I do agree that we should see more variation in the things you mentioned, but that's a hurdle developers don't even really think about and nor does their main audience I believe. Personality wise... yeah, I pretty much attribute that to lazy writing, but again, if we're talking Japanese, their societal standards on how girls should be leak into their characterization. You can pretty much see that in the game you just mentioned, Girl's Revolution (it's weird because that game had/has a fanbase, but hopefully people can see the premise as the tripe it actually is)

I'm curious, what do you mean by "flawless" exactly? Flawless physically or personality wise, because either way the definition is subjective.

In terms of Western VN development, I think some creators are doing better in terms of including diversity. I know Winter Wolves is working on a game, C-14 Dating,and the love interests are rather varied in terms of physical appearance as well as personalities. You can read about it here: http://www.winterwolves.net/blog/2014/0 ... g-casting/

[infel]

With a Japanese oriented medium like anime and VNs, you find that their standard of beauty is kind of, if not very narrow. I do agree that we should see more variation in the things you mentioned, but that's a hurdle developers don't even really think about and nor does their main audience I believe. Personality wise... yeah, I pretty much attribute that to lazy writing, but again, if we're talking Japanese, their societal standards on how girls should be leak into their characterization. You can pretty much see that in the game you just mentioned, Girl's Revolution (it's weird because that game had/has a fanbase, but hopefully people can see the premise as the tripe it actually is)

I'm curious, what do you mean by "flawless" exactly? Flawless physically or personality wise, because either way the definition is subjective.

In terms of Western VN development, I think some creators are doing better in terms of including diversity. I know Winter Wolves is working on a game, C-14 Dating,and the love interests are rather varied in terms of physical appearance as well as personalities. You can read about it here: http://www.winterwolves.net/blog/2014/0 ... g-casting/

Thank you so much for your thoughts. I do get that the Japanese have a very different belief that others do. And lazy writing defiantly has something to do with bad personalities. And I understand. I just wish more games didn't have to deal with stuff like that. And yes, that games shows it perfectly. At least with otome games or dating sims, they didn't bash any size, or something like that. But that's what the game is doing. Feels like girls are too focused on the guys, and not what the message is actually giving out.

And I guess what I mean was both in personality, and/or physically. For example, Disney princess are flawless, but they have some flaw, at least the later ones do, that make them likable. Bell's intelligent, Tiana is a work and so on. Though princess like Ariel I could kind of do without because she's a but selfish.

Oh, and I love Winter Wolves games. I've seen that, and it looks really good. They make great characters, and I'm always proud to buy from them . I do like that Lemmasoft has many games that have good MC and characters, along with a theme that can make one feel better

[gekiganwing]

The phrase "Does it make money?" comes to mind. If you can create a story with average-looking people, and *sell it* to an audience in forms such as television and major motion pictures, then you're doing something right. I'm trying to think if there are any recent, well-known series in which ordinary people get major roles without becoming a walking punchline... It might be easier to justify including plain people in prose fiction (no pictures), or alternative comics (in which the art style can be bizarre or ugly).

Consider searching Mangaupdates' tags and categories index. One tag that I found is "fat female lead." In order to find some relevant stories, you might benefit from then using its genre search. Use any tags you want, and then use include/exclude to filter the sort of categories you want or dislike.

There isn't quite as much variety in the field of visual novels. It's also difficult to find products that are both 1) available in English and 2) worksafe. However, you might benefit by looking through VNDB tags such as Protagonist's Appearance.

... I wanted to say this was caused by a game my friend showed me called Girl's Revolution. Yes, the guys are attracted, but the premise is horrible for that game. Change yourself just for someone to love you?

There is an English patch for the Nintendo DS Korean version of the game. "Girlish Love Revolution" is a simulation game, and so about half of the focus is changing main character's health through strategy and planning, and there isn't all that much emphasis on story. Gamertell reviewed the import version, and then had a few more thoughts after the fan translation was completed.

Also, its manga spinoff is available in English as "Ugly Duckling's Love Revolution." It didn't make much of an impression on me though.

Roger Ebert said, “It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.” In other words, the basic concept is not as important as how the concept is presented. Let's say I wrote a story about a shark that kills people. I could make it just a trashy horror story. Or it could be a tale of suspense and survival. Also, it could be a tragedy: perhaps humans provoked the shark, or perhaps the deaths could have been prevented if people were less greedy or fearful.

[infel]

The phrase "Does it make money?" comes to mind. If you can create a story with average-looking people, and *sell it* to an audience in forms such as television and major motion pictures, then you're doing something right. I'm trying to think if there are any recent, well-known series in which ordinary people get major roles without becoming a walking punchline... It might be easier to justify including plain people in prose fiction (no pictures), or alternative comics (in which the art style can be bizarre or ugly).

Consider searching Mangaupdates' tags and categories index. One tag that I found is "fat female lead." In order to find some relevant stories, you might benefit from then using its genre search. Use any tags you want, and then use include/exclude to filter the sort of categories you want or dislike.

There isn't quite as much variety in the field of visual novels. It's also difficult to find products that are both 1) available in English and 2) worksafe. However, you might benefit by looking through VNDB tags such as Protagonist's Appearance.

... I wanted to say this was caused by a game my friend showed me called Girl's Revolution. Yes, the guys are attracted, but the premise is horrible for that game. Change yourself just for someone to love you?

There is an English patch for the Nintendo DS Korean version of the game. "Girlish Love Revolution" is a simulation game, and so about half of the focus is changing main character's health through strategy and planning, and there isn't all that much emphasis on story. Gamertell reviewed the import version, and then had a few more thoughts after the fan translation was completed.

Also, its manga spinoff is available in English as "Ugly Duckling's Love Revolution." It didn't make much of an impression on me though.

Roger Ebert said, “It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.” In other words, the basic concept is not as important as how the concept is presented. Let's say I wrote a story about a shark that kills people. I could make it just a trashy horror story. Or it could be a tale of suspense and survival. Also, it could be a tragedy: perhaps humans provoked the shark, or perhaps the deaths could have been prevented if people were less greedy or fearful.

I think I get what you're saying, especially with the quote by Ebert. That's kind of sad really. I don't know why that has to be the major thing that sells things, or why so many people are just attracted to the super pretty. I'll have to try and see if there is anything that has something new to it, but they are hard to find and if they have them they could be insensitive to someone who is like that.

And I saw the review of Lover's Revolution. It says that it won't offed people that much because it's funny, but for those who think deeper about it and not just go it for the guys, will (hopefully) realize that it's not something that's good. Even with the Manga, I doubt it'll be any better. What I find very insane is the fast that most of the guys won't talk to you if you don't reach a certain weight. I have never seen that in a VN. Usually it's working out to up strength. Also, the MC is horrible. She does it to get a boyfriend.

I think people who love Otome games and Dating sims need to have some type of boundary. Even with good to beautiful art, of the premise, stories, and characters aren't good then it won't save the game. Now I know people who love this game might not get how it's offensive, but people can't always be so ignorant on some things. One has to think about what they play, watch, and listen to

[LVUER]

I love otome games and anime more then anything. In fact, I admit that both have helped me through some difficult times. However, I've come to notice a rather big trend in both of them, along with movies and tv shows. There is to much 'perfection', as in the characters look perfect, and not enough 'flaws' as in they have something that makes them relate to those in actual life.

A character that too perfect = Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Well, people usually avoid it. Though sometimes creator can get away with it in some special case... Or you can make a Mary Sue and add a flaw (and hope can get away with it).

Mikasa is kind of perfect, yet she's really likable because of how strong she is.

Mikasa isn't perfect at all. You can also see that only one people actually like her (but alas, Mikasa is dead set on Eren). Mikasa may be strong and dedicated... but that's it. She is not the brightest lot out there. She is too simple. She almost always misunderstood Eren. And she is not pretty other than her black hair (which is supposedly very rare in Attack on Titan world). Also her body is very muscular (unless you have fetish for muscular girl).

Ah, sorry for my rant, since I like Mikasa :p I have her figma and nendoroid

[infel]

I love otome games and anime more then anything. In fact, I admit that both have helped me through some difficult times. However, I've come to notice a rather big trend in both of them, along with movies and tv shows. There is to much 'perfection', as in the characters look perfect, and not enough 'flaws' as in they have something that makes them relate to those in actual life.

A character that too perfect = Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Well, people usually avoid it. Though sometimes creator can get away with it in some special case... Or you can make a Mary Sue and add a flaw (and hope can get away with it).

Mikasa is kind of perfect, yet she's really likable because of how strong she is.

Mikasa isn't perfect at all. You can also see that only one people actually like her (but alas, Mikasa is dead set on Eren). Mikasa may be strong and dedicated... but that's it. She is not the brightest lot out there. She is too simple. She almost always misunderstood Eren. And she is not pretty other than her black hair (which is supposedly very rare in Attack on Titan world). Also her body is very muscular (unless you have fetish for muscular girl).

Ah, sorry for my rant, since I like Mikasa :p I have her figma and nendoroid

That's true. Usually Mary Sue's are bad. But would you consider Belle to be perfect? I know some do, but I think she a pretty good princess.

And sorry about that. I guess it's rare for me to find a girl like Mikasa who can stand on her own to feet. It's nice to have that sometimes. But thanks for telling me this. I think it's actually good she has this stuff because it means the creator did a good job in making a kind of realistic character. And no need to apologize. It was helpful info

[susiesum]

Oh, and I love Winter Wolves games. I've seen that, and it looks really good. They make great characters, and I'm plr always proud to buy from them . I do like that Lemmasoft has many games that have good MC and characters, along with a theme that can make one feel better

Me too, me too, Winter Wolves rocks. Glad I am not the only one who thinks that way.

[LRH]

The phrase "Does it make money?" comes to mind. If you can create a story with average-looking people, and *sell it* to an audience in forms such as television and major motion pictures, then you're doing something right. I'm trying to think if there are any recent, well-known series in which ordinary people get major roles without becoming a walking punchline... It might be easier to justify including plain people in prose fiction (no pictures), or alternative comics (in which the art style can be bizarre or ugly).

I can think of two male examples in television:

Mal Reynolds (Firefly, played by Nathan Fillion) is pretty much the every man, albeit a bit braver (or is that dumber?) than most. He's not especially good-looking, he doesn't have ladies falling over themselves to be with him. He does make mistakes, and he isn't rich. The only thing he has going for him is that he's able to inspire loyalty in those around him, and his ship (which sometimes lets him down!)

Wash (Firefly, played by Alan Tudyk) is rather plain, and probably not really what most people have in mind when they think of good looks, and so endearingly lame most of the time - though he does have his moments when he really shines ("I am a leaf on the wind"). Also, his wife pretty much doesn't love him half as much as Mal for most of the series, so he's losing out to someone only marginally better than him. Poor Wash, you could write a blues song about him without having to try very hard at all.

I'm drawing a blank for female examples. Total blank.

[Fungii]

Bland examples are easier to name for male examples because of that whole sexism thing. Most of the time a male lead will be made as plain and average as possible so that dudes can superimpose themselves in the place of the guy who's actually in the series.

And yeah, Girl's Revolution is pretty gross. Doesn't help that it's difficult as heck to even get a decent ending and even if you do you just have this lingering feeling of "eaugh". As for the art in that game, I'm honestly surprised by the amount of VNs I see the artist(s) getting work.

[LRH]

Bland examples are easier to name for male examples because of that whole sexism thing. Most of the time a male lead will be made as plain and average as possible so that dudes can superimpose themselves in the place of the guy who's actually in the series.

I was thinking the same thing, but, being transgendered, I'm not sure how much of a horse I have in that race, and I always worry that whatever I say on the subject of sexism is going to be taken completely the wrong way.

[infel]

Oh, and I love Winter Wolves games. I've seen that, and it looks really good. They make great characters, and I'm always proud to buy from them . I do like that Lemmasoft has many games that have good MC and characters, along with a theme that can make one feel better

Me too, me too, Winter Wolves rocks. Glad I am not the only one who thinks that way.

Yes

[infel]

The phrase "Does it make money?" comes to mind. If you can create a story with average-looking people, and *sell it* to an audience in forms such as television and major motion pictures, then you're doing something right. I'm trying to think if there are any recent, well-known series in which ordinary people get major roles without becoming a walking punchline... It might be easier to justify including plain people in prose fiction (no pictures), or alternative comics (in which the art style can be bizarre or ugly).

I can think of two male examples in television:

Mal Reynolds (Firefly, played by Nathan Fillion) is pretty much the every man, albeit a bit braver (or is that dumber?) than most. He's not especially good-looking, he doesn't have ladies falling over themselves to be with him. He does make mistakes, and he isn't rich. The only thing he has going for him is that he's able to inspire loyalty in those around him, and his ship (which sometimes lets him down!)

Wash (Firefly, played by Alan Tudyk) is rather plain, and probably not really what most people have in mind when they think of good looks, and so endearingly lame most of the time - though he does have his moments when he really shines ("I am a leaf on the wind"). Also, his wife pretty much doesn't love him half as much as Mal for most of the series, so he's losing out to someone only marginally better than him. Poor Wash, you could write a blues song about him without having to try very hard at all.

I'm drawing a blank for female examples. Total blank.

Those are some good examples. Movies/Tv shows have more of a way to show the every man. But it's kind of less then 50%

[infel]

Bland examples are easier to name for male examples because of that whole sexism thing. Most of the time a male lead will be made as plain and average as possible so that dudes can superimpose themselves in the place of the guy who's actually in the series.

And yeah, Girl's Revolution is pretty gross. Doesn't help that it's difficult as heck to even get a decent ending and even if you do you just have this lingering feeling of "eaugh". As for the art in that game, I'm honestly surprised by the amount of VNs I see the artist(s) getting work.

For a girl example, I'd say Bella is like that. She so bland that any girl impose on her. And yes, the game is gross. Glad to see some people see that. Even if someone does like it, they should try to at least acknowledge the horrid theme and premise it has. But I'll admit it's good that artists are getting work, even for games like this one.