Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

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Godline
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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#16 Post by Godline »

TrickWithAKnife wrote:
I feel your pain. I'm working on one to teach beginner/survival Japanese and skills to help reduce culture shock. My Japanese isn't great, but fortunately some Japanese friends and my wife (also Japanese) help a lot with that side. I'm an English teacher, so that experience has been invaluable too.
Something that's well needed, but it's just working out how to market it really. I hope it's realistic. :) There's always lots of fun in that. I'd love to play it when it's closer to completion.
Go Go Nippon... Heh, people love to mention it when I tell them what I'm working on. I don't think it's bad, but other than the setting, there's not a lot in common with what I want to do.
Yeah, there needs to be more out there than just Go Go Nippon, which I didn't find very educational because A. I've never been to Japan and B. I don't know any Japanese! Haha.
I'm not sure about other languages, but games for teaching Japanese focus on individual vocabulary, with no context and little in the way of feedback, other than "correct" or "incorrect". That's all swell, but when I go to a convenience store and they ask in rapid Japanese if I want to have my food microwaved, or if I want certain items bagged separately, knowing how to say "good morning", numbers or colours isn't going to be much help.
Yeah, I've been focusing mostly on conversational phrases for Kaitlyn in Chinaland. Numbers and colors are useful but need to be in context. I would like to go above and beyond with a new game and make it with heavy Chinese for people to learn. But we'll see. I guess everyone needs that foundation first - which is kind of what I've done with Kaitlyn.
In my search for a game that was useful and enjoyable for learning Japanese, I realized that I wasn't the only one. There are thousands of people who want to find an enjoyable way to learn practical language skills. I strongly feel visual novels are a wonderful platform for doing this.
How do you find marketing though? I mean there are people that want it but how to let them know? I have to admit I need advice for this with getting it out there.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#17 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

Godline wrote:How do you find marketing though? I mean there are people that want it but how to let them know? I have to admit I need advice for this with getting it out there.
I won't be doing any marketing for a while, but the plan is to hit up popular Japanese study sites to see if they'll help get the word out there. I've been slowly trying to get to know the communities that may find what I'm working on interesting.
Godline wrote:I've been focusing mostly on conversational phrases for Kaitlyn in Chinaland. Numbers and colors are useful but need to be in context. I would like to go above and beyond with a new game and make it with heavy Chinese for people to learn. But we'll see. I guess everyone needs that foundation first - which is kind of what I've done with Kaitlyn.
A rough guideline for what I'm trying to do as far as educational content is:
  1. Tools: Where, how much, when, which, etc.
  2. Foundation: Common/useful verbs, nouns, numbers, etc.
  3. Variations: Negatives, various tenses.
  4. Glue: But, and, then, so.
  5. Details: Adjectives.
This is the general order, but it will alter depending on what is most useful in the game. Useful phrases will be sprinkled throughout.

The list above may make it seem like I'm just teaching vocab, but it's not meant to be. For example, numbers will be taught, but mostly reviewed when the playable characters go shopping.

Against all advice, I've decided this will be a very large game to allow educational content to be paced better. The drawback is the extra writing involved, and keeping it interesting the whole time.. The biggest complaint I had when testing was that players felt overwhelmed by the Japanese parts. Pacing, spaced repetition, constant level checking and having the Japanese contents adapt automatically are vital.

One of the biggest advantages of games over textbooks and videos is that they can provide very customized real-time feedback to the learner. I haven't heard anyone talk about that in LSF yet, but I hope creators will take it into consideration.

I'm cheating a little by having the main characters be able to take Japanese lessons within the game if they want, meaning there are parts where the education can be more direct. In this situation I can do things like teaching Hiragana and Katakana to players who want to know.

There will be a smartphone in game with some reference tools, including a personal dictionary that the player can access at any time to check vocabulary. Actually, I've spent a fair amount of time creating and testing many tools in Ren'Py to support players. Not sure how many will make the final cut though.
Last edited by TrickWithAKnife on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#18 Post by Tyrantauranox »

I stumbled across this the other day: http://store.steampowered.com/app/320760/

Dual-language (English/Japanese), voiced major characters, two text areas on-screen- which can each be set to English, Romaji (Japanese spelled out with letters), full Japanese (including Kanji), or Hiragana/Katakana-only.

It also uses the E-mote engine, for those wanting to check that out

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#19 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

Might be interesting for those who are in the process of learning Japanese and already have some common words and basic grammar down. Not sure how well that method would work for beginners though.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#20 Post by Alte »

I found this intriguing article of incorporating visual novel elements to boast confidence through interaction.
Using an Interactive Visual Novel to Promote Patient Empowerment through Engagement (PDF)
It's worth sharing.
Ren'Py Cookbook Directory

I'm not affiliated with Ren'Py/ itch.io/ Steam/ etc.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#21 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

It was quite facinating. Really shows how powerful games can be, and how VNs are ideal in many cases.

Especially enjoyed reading about how different design choices can benefit the players in real life.

Thanks for linking it.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#22 Post by Alte »

You're welcome!
Ren'Py Cookbook Directory

I'm not affiliated with Ren'Py/ itch.io/ Steam/ etc.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#23 Post by Alte »

If anyone have thoughts of incorporating multiple languages in projects, please check out the website Flags are not languages.

I thought it would be appropriate for language learning in VNs and designing effective interface.
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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#24 Post by Morhighan »

Alte wrote:I found this intriguing article of incorporating visual novel elements to boast confidence through interaction.
Using an Interactive Visual Novel to Promote Patient Empowerment through Engagement (PDF)
It's worth sharing.
Alte wrote:If anyone have thoughts of incorporating multiple languages in projects, please check out the website Flags are not languages.

I thought it would be appropriate for language learning in VNs and designing effective interface.
Thank you for both of these resources! :3
I've thought long and hard about educational VNs, but my main roadblock is "What would I like to teach?" Most of my skills are more "abstract," like writing or art or music. I say abstract because they are such large topics tackle as a whole.
I think questions like "What would I like to teach?" and "What topics do I know about?" are important to ask oneself when thinking about eduVNs.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#25 Post by Just-kimchii »

Personally I wouldn't mind if there were more ecchi games out there. I truly respect the artists for being able to draw some of the craziest poses out there. Though admittedly, the plots in ecchi games could use A LOT of fixing! But I digress....

Addressing the main topic, however, while I think it is a neat idea, it is harder to implement (someone else was discussing it earlier). I think the main issue here would be, of course, making sure that you (in some ways) and whoever you're working with, are experts on the subject you're "teaching." It would require a lot of organizing and deciding what's important to implement in the VN and what isn't (like a curriculum, if you may).

I might need more clarification on this, but how exactly do you intend to execute this VN? Will it be like a textbook type of thing where you just make decisions based on what's being taught? Or will the information be presented in the form of a story? That's another thing that would need to be decided. If you choose the former, it would be a little...redundant. You could just buy a book, special teaching software or take a class online. if you go for the latter (someone mentioned this), you need to make sure that it is interesting engaging in some way, presenting the information subtly without making it OBVIOUS that it is trying to teach you something (but then again that all depends on how the creators would go about that).

Personally, I find overtly direct messages very cheesy and annoying. For example, say you're watching a movie and the characters CLEARLY state the moral of the story and it sounds like a sermon (i.e. "You should never bully!", "you should accept yourself for who you are", etc). I think educational VN's could be unsuccessful if they come across like that, but that's just my opinion.

That being said, I think that Visual Novels work best when the topic presented is something that has to do with the social sciences, such as social issues or history, or literature. I would say these work best because they're easier to implement in the form of a story and make options that leave the player wondering about the consequences of their actions. Stories about social issues CAN be pretty effective to expose to the player the realities of such issue, like slave labor, classism or sensitive topics like rape (provided that it doesn't sound like a teacher giving you a lecture). Of course, I have not read ANY works that address these topics head on, most of the ones I've played (japanese VNs at least) treat these topics pretty lightly, particularly rape. Most VN's that are non-ecchi and center on dystopian worlds tend to focus on a more philosophical spectrum, so they're trying to prove an idea (particularly the effects of said dystopian world).

As for more science and mathematically oriented subjects...that's more difficult to implement. IMHO, science and math are very complex by nature and are not really something that a visual novel can teach (at least not without help or if the level is not very high). I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think this would need to be approached very carefully.

I think it could also work with languages...I haven't put much thought to this one. I think it could very well work :)

There's a ton of factors to consider when approaching this area. But I think these are the biggest issues here: Is it worth doing? Who's your audience? And WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED IN BUYING/PRODUCING/SPONSORING THIS PRODUCT? That last one is probably the most important because, at least here in United States, the general American population isn't as interested in anime/manga, much less in visual novels. If anything, there's some stigma on visual novels as they're known for being pornographic games. Luckily though, there's been more VN's introduced in android/apple products (the plots are pretty lame though....), so you could probably distribute them that way!

Anyway...those are my thoughts on educational VN's. I'm a bit of a skeptic but I'm not against the idea. Seriously though, we need to make visual novels more popular here!

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#26 Post by godman85 »

My game is educational in this way. Black Sands is about Mythology. Any character, beast, city, etc I use in the game will be referenced in "the book of Thoth on my main website and in game. When you come across new lore, it will be like an achievement and you can check out the lore in a side menu.

These lore entries explain the real life myth/historical location it is based off of and why I decided to make it my way.

People who have a limited knowledge of western mythology will truly learn a lot from my game.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#27 Post by qirien »

I think Our Personal Space can teach people a thing or two about being a good spouse... but that's not what we usually mean when we say "educational". :)

I definitely learned a lot about the Paseban village in Jakarta playing Tour de Paseban. The author also has some Pharmacy educational VNs?

Cave! Cave! Deus Videt. taught me a lot about medieval art and history.

I was thinking about making a chemistry visual novel where you have to apply high school chemistry concepts to help super heroes defeat villains, but it's still in the planning stages. :-/

One thing I would recommend for larger projects is to split your project up into chapters or sections. Not only is it more manageable to create one chapter at a time, but it's easier for players, too.

I would also keep in mind some learning research, such as:
* Taking a quiz on something helps you remember it better (study link)
* Let the player get things wrong sometimes (study link)
* You want the player to actively want to learn the answer. Whether it's to help a character communicate (as in a language game), or to solve a puzzle or another problem, having an in-game motive is effective! Long explanations or narrative without interactivity or motive is like a lecture - boring! (study link)

I love educational games; good luck!
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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#28 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

Interesting links, although the quiz one I interpreted to mean that learners need context more than quiz style review. And actually, as a language teacher myself, I tend to get much more success from encouraging creative use of language rather than forcing them to memorize what words mean.

That ties in well with the second link, as having a right or wrong style lesson means that students are far less likely to experiment. I strongly encourage them to try using vocabulary or sentence structures in new ways, and I'll help them to understand how it affects the meaning as well as whether there are more natural ways to say the same thing while keeping a similar intention.

The third link may be the most important of all. By using games, we have a potentially more effective way of engaging learners. I certainly don't want to discourage people who do want to use more direct teaching methods, as they certainly have their strengths.

When I'm teaching young learners (5+) for example, I like to get them to create their own character, which they draw in their notebook. Throughout the academic year they build on their character's stories, using the target language of each lesson. By the end of the year they can use all the content they were required to learn and more, in a far more natural way. Other teachers have students mindlessly write target language over and over. My students each have their own book full of interesting stories they created themselves and care about. Guess whose students are happier and get far better test scores.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Anyone Else Thinking About Educational VNs?

#29 Post by quiltedcorgi »

Technically I consider my game to be educational; although maybe not what you meant...The game I'm working on is a GxB otome game revolving around animal shelters and the dogs surrendered there. So, as far as education goes, the characters talk a lot about statistics, common (false) stereotypes of certain breeds, animal care and training, interesting scientific facts about dogs, ways people can get involved, etc. Definitely not something a teacher may utilize in the classroom (I don't the romantic themes would go over well), but something I hope people can play and then take a lesson away from.

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