Non-Binary?

[PyTom]

I think you may have misinterpreted what he said. He meant fewer people will relate, not that the character is less relatable. Like we could both relate to a female character, but only you could relate to a female Jewish character.

This is basically what I meant. I also think I went a little farther than that - my point was that you can make a less-defined character, that the player can easily empathize with, and only then define them once the player and the character have had time to bond.

This is especially true in works like novels and VNs, where you don't _need_ to reveal very much about the protagonist at the start - and hence, you can control the release of information for maximum impact. I had hoped the Tunnel in the Sky example would have made what I was trying to say clearer.

Going back to the OP - why would having a protagonist that identifies as Non-Binary require more character art? It's the same character throughout the game - and in a VN, there's no requirement to show the protagonist in the first place.

"Talking past each other" means what, exactly? Contributing without replying to somebody else? Depending on the topic, that may or may not be an issue.

This is more meant to shut down topics like "What is your favorite color?" - I don't think there's anything to be said about why you prefer blue and I prefer plaid. And yet, such threads go on for a long time, taking space from more productive discussions.

It strikes me as rather hypocritical to profess a desire to make a forum welcoming when, in point of fact, it only welcomes certain kinds of discussion.

You're wrong about this. By having a topic, a forum welcomes everyone by encouraging them to set aside differences that are unrelated to the topic. Without a topic, every difference is equally important, and hence all differences are magnified.

[Mad Harlequin]

This is more meant to shut down topics like "What is your favorite color?" - I don't think there's anything to be said about why you prefer blue and I prefer plaid. And yet, such threads go on for a long time, taking space from more productive discussions.

They may not be productive in the general sense of the word, but they can be a source of amusement and rest, which may be useful to the overtaxed creative mind.

You're wrong about this. By having a topic, a forum welcomes everyone by encouraging them to set aside differences that are unrelated to the topic. Without a topic, every difference is equally important, and hence all differences are magnified.

I doubt very much that your opinion of my assessment will change upon hearing this, but I'm not saying the forum can't be primarily focused on one subject----as you say, we shouldn't let our differences distract from our purpose as a collective. But how are we to set them aside without discussion? If we don't give ourselves the opportunity to talk to each other about these things, to understand them, how can we welcome each other properly? A sense of community is bred by understanding, and pretending that we exist in a vacuum won't contribute to understanding.

That's all I have to say.

[ThisIsNoName]

I doubt very much that your opinion of my assessment will change upon hearing this, but I'm not saying the forum can't be primarily focused on one subject----as you say, we shouldn't let our differences distract from our purpose as a collective. But how are we to set them aside without discussion?

I think that's the point PyTom was trying to make. It's not a "discussion", it's four or five people talking at each other to explain their views, without being open to changing them. It prevents people who may not want to defend their views, or are less sure of them, from trying to post.

EDIT: I'll just post this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

[Caveat Lector]

Yeah, this to everything Harlequin's saying. Even if someone's opinion is deeply misinformed, isn't it better to constructively explain why (with as much patience as you can, of course, and others would have far more patience than I do, so I'm not claiming to be an expert here) instead of just simply shutting the topic down? Even if the other person is wrong or misinformed, the important thing is having the freedom to DISCUSS the nature behind these opinions, and EXPLAIN why individuality is important. You say you'll only allow constructive topics where people elaborate on their opinions, but you won't allow that for a topic like this?

And hell, why not allow more favourite colour topics or things like that? We can still contribute discussion to them, and also just have fun doing it, too. We all need a bit of silliness to just relax and chill with one another.

[Jate]

I also don't think favourite colour sort of topics are harmful. I don't see how they would take space from more productive topics, as those other topics can still be there, and people don't have to select one or the other to post in. Personally I think "chatterbox," as a forum I used to be on called it, sort of topics really add to a forum. Without them a forum has a much more formal/serious feeling to it and I wind up reluctant to post for fear of looking stupid. Of course they should be in the appropriate place, I wouldn't want to see such a topic under the assets or creator discussions. But what's the point of general discussion if our discussion points are limited like that?

As a side note I really respect that you allowed people to respond and explained your thought process rather than just dropping a staff bomb and locking the thread.

On topic, I've never been very interested in gender options, binary or no, for a story-driven game. The choice suggests to me that the protagonist is a self-insert, and I prefer more defined characters. Whether the player character is male, female, or nb/gq, I'd like to see that be a part of their identity and not just a pronoun/sprite modifier. But if you're going to have gender and sprite options, I see no reason why you can't make those choices separate. Ask gender, and then ask what sprite they'd like to use.

[PyTom]

Folks, let's keep this thread on-topic. If you want to talk about the forum rules, I'll be willing to do that - but go create another thread for it.

[Caveat Lector]

Jocelyn Samara (author and artist of the webcomic Rain--which, btw, also includes a genderfluid character), is working on a game called "The Hero's Choice", and you can choose the name, personality, sex, orientation, and gender identity of your protagonist, and the story's adventures in-game would be tailored around those factors amongst other things (such as the defined personality the player would set). So it would be something similar to that, I guess?

I think that a protagonist whose gender you can potentially customize can be done well and serve a purpose, but generally speaking, with more story-oriented games? Yeah, I agree, it's better to have a defined protagonist who's more than a self-insert. There's also this as reference: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Fictional_dep ... ary_gender

Interestingly enough, it seems like webcomics tend to be cover nb topics the most.

[trooper6]

On topic, I've never been very interested in gender options, binary or no, for a story-driven game. The choice suggests to me that the protagonist is a self-insert, and I prefer more defined characters. Whether the player character is male, female, or nb/gq, I'd like to see that be a part of their identity and not just a pronoun/sprite modifier. But if you're going to have gender and sprite options, I see no reason why you can't make those choices separate. Ask gender, and then ask what sprite they'd like to use.

I don't think gender choices necessarily equate to self-insert. Dragon Age Origins allowed for gender and race choices, but my experience playing my male dwarven noble was that I ended up making some (bad) decisions that I personally wouldn't have done, but was in character for my dwarf. I think part of the difference has to do what sort of story is being told, how much work is done with customizing NPC reactions to the PC, and to some extent the sort of player you have. If you have a player that insists on self-inserting no matter what you do to discourage them from doing so...then gender ends up coming a way from them to further self-insert. But if you have a player who is more interested in role-playing a diferent character, a gender choice can facilitate that process. Having a strongly defined character with little room for characterization may discourage roleplaying on the part of the player and encourage them into reader mode rather than player mode...which may not be what you want either.

I think to do a lot of these things correctly involves really thinking about the customization choices being made and making them meaningful...unless the particular choices aren't actually socially meaningful in that game world. For example, if you are creating a game world where gender is completely irrelevant socially, then you wouldn't have to do much customization beyond pronouns and sprites...on the other hand, class/caste might be really important in that game world and then that choice might make a big difference to NPC reactions and branches possible. But anytime you write a game where branches are opened or closed off based on customization, or PCs react quite differently based on various choices...it is a lot of work.

Anyway, I think there are ways to have customizeable PCs that are more than just self-inserts. And I think there is also nothing particularly wrong with self-insert PCs...if you do something interesting with the concept.

[Mad Harlequin]

For example, if you are creating a game world where gender is completely irrelevant socially, then you wouldn't have to do much customization beyond pronouns and sprites...on the other hand, class/caste might be really important in that game world and then that choice might make a big difference to NPC reactions and branches possible. But anytime you write a game where branches are opened or closed off based on customization, or PCs react quite differently based on various choices...it is a lot of work.

It's been a little while since I've played through it, and I have to play again to try different choices, but Unrest proves this point very well---the player assumes the role of more than one character, and actions taken as one of them can make the experience easier or more difficult for the others. (The game is set in a fantasy version of India and incorporates the country's traditional concepts of castes, gender roles, etc. When I played as the first PC, a teenage girl faced with an arranged marriage, I chose to rebel against it, and that set the stage for obstacles I faced later. My decision also affected how NPCs viewed me.)

I really ought to replay soon and see what else I can find.

[trooper6]

Well that sounds like a really interesting game! I'll have to download it and try it out (after I finish my book manuscript, that is).

Oh! And it is on sale on Steam for the Summer sale. Downloading now...playing later.

[Mad Harlequin]

Well that sounds like a really interesting game! I'll have to download it and try it out (after I finish my book manuscript, that is).

Oh! And it is on sale on Steam for the Summer sale. Downloading now...playing later.

Well, I'm glad! I hope you enjoy it.

[noeinan]

Games with non-binary characters, let's see...

There is a game on steam about a transgender private detective. It's also part musical? The title is Dominique Pamplemousse. I got it, because I wanted to support it, but haven't had a chance to play it yet.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/270310/?l=thai

There is also this Steam curator group for queer friendly games. It has a lot of visual novels listed.
http://store.steampowered.com/curator/6 ... pid=257970

Specifically, Winter Wolves games has some non-binary characters. I think the sequel to Planet Stronghold has a non-binary, but very feminine presenting, character. I also think the new Loren: Amazon Princess game has an ambiguously gendered character...

Read Only Memories has the potential for a non-binary character. The design is ambiguously gendered and you, the player, get to choose your pronouns.
http://midboss.com/rom/

Apparently, there is a non-binary tag on the Visual Novel Database: https://vndb.org/g2004

And in case anyone wanted to look at examples of non-binary characters in fiction for help in writing their own games, here is another list: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Fictional_dep ... ary_gender


Back to the lemmasoft forums, I've seen a few non-binary characters mentioned before...

Lok [Fantasy][Mystery][Agender Protagonist]
Protagonist is non-human, and has the ability to shape-shift. (Usually looking like an androgynous human.) The main character serves as the guardian of an ancient, dangerous forest. Human visitors are sparse, but one festival day, three walk in at once. Project not officially dropped, but slow since creator went back to school.
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... er#p356319

[PTSD update] Alex in Wonderland [romance, fantasy]
The protagonist is specifically labeled as non-binary, and the Cheshire Cat has their gender labeled "none". The main character's estranged mother dies, and after meeting the many odd characters who attend her funeral, they are pulled into a bizarre world. Project is in an indeterminate status, may or may not be picked back up.
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... it=agender

Hellbound [NBxG/B/NB] [Demons+Paranormal]
The main character is non-binary, and suffers hardship from their family. One day, they pray to the devil, and the devil answers. Was projected to come out in 2016, but hasn't updated in a year.
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... it=agender

Clockwork Heart[Robots] [GxB/G/NB]
The main character is a woman, but one of the robots is non-binary. A girl is asked to live at her deceased uncle's estate. Once she gets there, she is greeted by automatons created by her uncle-- and then begins receiving letters from the dead. Game release was pushed back, has not been updated in over a year.
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... it=agender


Aaand that's about all I could find. Hope it helps!

[Fox Lee]

Touching on the issue of different sprite sets for different genders, I try to make all my main characters look gender neutral, so they could be interpreted as male, female, or neither.
It's a bit of an easy way out, but it saves a lot of time in the long run haha.

Easy way out? More like a bonus :D Personally, I love seeing androgynous-leaning character designs in games - even if they do have a confirmed gender/sex, I still prefer an aesthetic that blurs the gender "line" liberally.

I'm not NB myself, but I don't exactly "perform" my gender the way I'm traditionally supposed to, so I guess that's why I really like characters who don't conform/fit the mould either. Like, despite being female, I find it easier to identify* with a character who doesn't particularly look male or female, than the supposedly-generic otome game protagonist. So, any time I see characters who could be interpreted as any gender, I'm all the more excited for a game! Especially if I get to play a tough-looking one and date a cute-looking one ;p

I haven't written a confirmed non-binary character in a finished work yet - I didn't really understand NB being a thing until fairly recently, something I've been making an effort to fix. However, I did make sure to include a "they" pronoun choice for the PC in my 2015 NaNo project, Where Ages Go - in the end it only ever comes up in one scene on one path, but since I was including the choice at all I thought it was important.

(*I do really like protagonists who don't match up with me, as long as they are defined characters. In fact, I prefer them; when I'm piloting a character with their own personality, I don't mind my choices being restricted, because I'm supposed to be playing them! The problem is only when the MC is presented as a generic player-insert, because the "generic" girl in games NEVER EVER is/does/looks like what I want my player-insert to be/do/look like.)