Non-Binary?

[chlorofinite]

I myself am genderfluid (he/she/they) so my gender changes from day to day. Most of the time I'm a boy or both, sometimes I'm neither or a girl. One of the main characters in the game I'm writing is trans, but I'm not revealing who right now. It's not too important to the plot anyway.

[Taranee]

I'm a woman, but I would probably like a gender-neutral, non-stereotypical MC, because I'm very tomboyish myself. However, if you want to draw a female, male and non-binary character, are you going to make the female character girly with long hair, make-up, a skirt/dress and big boobs, the male character muscular and short-haired, and the non-binary character something in between? Those are gender roles, not genders. There are feminine men, masculine women, androgynous men and androgynous women.

I think the most inclusive way would be to have a customizable character (like in dress-up games), but because it's even more work, you could just draw one gender-neutral/ambiguous sprite that is used for all genders. I don't think it's fair to say that if you look like this *holds up an androgynous looking sprite* you can't be a woman or a man and you have to be a different gender if you want to play that character.

[truefaiterman]

I... don't really understand the "being a Non-Binary" (perhaps I'm too simple-minded). I've read about it, but I'm honestly lost. With this said, I'd actually be VERY interested in playing as a Non-Binary character, putting in the character's shoes could be a great way to understand about it.

[Laiska]

@truefaiterman: In simplest terms, if you are NB, you feel as if you are something other than "male" or "female." There is not a whole lot to it.

If you are still confused please have a thorough look through here: http://genderqueerid.com/

(If you want to know more I'll be happy to explain to you via PM.)

[Alera]

@The Library Cat
Thank you for elaborating, that's exactly what I had in mind, just said it very poorly xD

@Morgan_R
At the end of the day, I think you should concentrate on the characters and story you want to tell. It's true that just adding the option is not a real representation of a NB experience, but the same goes for the binary options. Not all binary people are the same and very few will relate to the protags from your game. But what you can try to do is simply make a good story where the players won't care about the gender of the MC and will just enjoy it for what it is. ^^

[Katy133]

I have plans to make a visual novel protagonist who is agender/androgynous, so other characters alternate between he/she pronouns (while other character mistakenly assume that she has a specific gender) when referring to him, similar to the character Beemo from Adventure Time.

[Rinima]

I have plans to make a visual novel protagonist who is agender/androgynous, so other characters alternate between he/she pronouns (while other character mistakenly assume that she has a specific gender) when referring to him, similar to the character Beemo from Adventure Time.

Surely they should be using 'they/them' pronouns rather than alternating if their androgynous? Alternating the pronouns sounds more appropriate for someone who is genderfluid.

[Katy133]

I have plans to make a visual novel protagonist who is agender/androgynous, so other characters alternate between he/she pronouns (while other character mistakenly assume that she has a specific gender) when referring to him, similar to the character Beemo from Adventure Time.

Surely they should be using 'they/them' pronouns rather than alternating if their androgynous? Alternating the pronouns sounds more appropriate for someone who is genderfluid.

I guess it's to do with an individual's preference. Some people are absolutely fine with "they/them." Some individuals feel that they/them pronouns make them sound like a group of people rather than one person. Some people feel that "it" dehumanises the person it's directed to too much. Other people are completely fine with "it."

[The Library Cat]

I have plans to make a visual novel protagonist who is agender/androgynous, so other characters alternate between he/she pronouns (while other character mistakenly assume that she has a specific gender) when referring to him, similar to the character Beemo from Adventure Time.

Surely they should be using 'they/them' pronouns rather than alternating if their androgynous? Alternating the pronouns sounds more appropriate for someone who is genderfluid.

I'm agender myself, and due to limitations in my native language, I also use she/her/hers pronouns (I also look feminine, so people automatically use those pronouns, anyway). Pronouns are a matter of personal perference, and even though it seems like it, they are not automatically linked to a specific gender. It's like clothing that way - some people relly like skirts, but wearing one does not automatically make you a woman. Some people can't stand skirts, and not wearing them does not automatically make them not a woman. Society tells us that skirts are just for women, but really, they're a piece of clothing - they have no influence on the wearer's gender. Same thing with pronouns.

[Chocopyro]

Oooh, it took me a while to figure out what you guys were referring to.

See, I saw "Non-Binary" and my first thoughts were Fuck yeah! I have a nonbinary plot in the mix too! I'm so sick of two way choices in games claiming they truly tailor the story to the gamer's experience! Even if it's a bitch to write!" Then I looked closer and realized I was clearly not on the same page as everyone in this thread. And then someone finally used the term "Agender" and I finally realized what was actually being discussed. Haha, okay.

Well, I can't say if its really my thing or not, but one of my closest friends identifies as Agender, so I'm open about it.

[Quelcezot]

They, etc isn't an adequate gender neutral pronoun. I can never claim to take pleasure in its usage, but it's better than using 'he' when the gender isn't known or disclosed due to the lack of social stigma. We trade the problem of default gender for the problem of having no way to distinguish individuals from groups. It also doesn't really work in the present continuous tense: "They is coming this way" for example.

I hadn't come across non binary genders before and it's a bit buzzwordy for my liking. Something is physically either male, female, both, or neither. I interpret gender as physical, and attraction is towards male, female, both, or neither as well.

Therefore where is the ambiguity? In my works I represent characters of various genders and sexual orientations.

I think it is a confusion to attempt to define people or characters emotionally by their genders to begin with. I see no cause to assume that people are binary by default and that after that there are people who are not. It's just replacing one irrational label with another.

Bite me.

[Caveat Lector]

Something is physically either male, female, both, or neither. I interpret gender as physical, and attraction is towards male, female, both, or neither as well.

Gender is actually a part-cognitive part-social construct. So no, it is not physical. Gender is not defined by your body. It's defined by your internal identity. Is a woman who has a hysterectomy a man? Is a man whose testicles are crushed a woman? No and no.

Gender is not biology. And biology is not destiny. If someone prefers to be referred to as "they, their, them", etc., respect that. In general, respect people's pronouns and don't correct them on what the "right" usage is.

[Quelcezot]

Something is physically either male, female, both, or neither. I interpret gender as physical, and attraction is towards male, female, both, or neither as well.

Gender is actually a part-cognitive part-social construct. So no, it is not physical. Gender is not defined by your body. It's defined by your internal identity. Is a woman who has a hysterectomy a man? Is a man whose testicles are crushed a woman? No and no.

Gender is not biology. And biology is not destiny. If someone prefers to be referred to as "they, their, them", etc., respect that. In general, respect people's pronouns and don't correct them on what the "right" usage is.

I respect a person's right to be referred to however they please, I do not respect pronouns. I am not correcting anyone. Gender is physical. There are gender expectations which are social, men and women also have tendencies to experience and consider the world differently which you could say is cognitive.

I do not think that our physical and emotional selves are completely distinct with no connections between one or the other, however I make a distinction between the two. While factors that I just mentioned are associated with the physical presence of gender, which is completely physical. My wording was not specific, but I do recognize that gender means different things to different people. To nature, gender is physical like everything else.

My dislike for the term is only based on semantics. It seems to make the depressing assumption that an active effort has to be made in order to portray characters in a non gendered way.

The idea that while a character directly pertains to one gender they cannot act in a genderless way.

I do not like this idea. Again though, my wording was pretty bad and left a lot of room for misinterpretation.

Also, seeing people praising their inadequate gender neutral pronoun substitute fills me with despair for humanity. Irrational I know, and irrational the consequence. I endure "they", I do not like it.

[trooper6]

Quelzecot you are quite misinformed...I wish I had all the time in the world to go into it...but I'm up against a deadline and have to get my book finished.
So I'll be brief.

Regarding "they" as a gender neutra/generic pronoun. You don't have to like it. However, it has been in use as a gender neutral pronoun as far back as the 14th Century at least. It was used as a gender neutral pronoun by Chaucer, Shakespeare, Thackeray, GB Shaw, Jane Austin. As a matter of fact, it was because of a campaign by 19th Century grammarians who wanted to use he as generic/gender neutral that they fell out of favor. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Singular_they

As for gender as physical. That is not how the term is used. Sex is used to refer to physical characteristics, while gender is used to refer to social characteristics--more or less.
When I teach gender/sex to classes as a Professor (which I am, by the way), I note that the use of the term "gender" is actually a bit sloppy because it often encompasses three different concepts:
Gender Role: The expectations society places on people based on society's gender roles. In the West we have a Binary: Male/Female. But different cultures have different numbers of gender roles. There are Hijra's in India, Two Spirited people in some Native American traditions. The Bugis people of Indonesia Have 5 genders. Different cultures have different numbers of gender roles. Additionally, the understanding of gender is also varied based on time, age, race, nationality, etc.
Gender Presentation: This would be how you present yourself in connection to society's understanding of gender. Masculine/Feminine/Androgynous.
Gender Identity: This really shouldn't have the word gender in it at all. I prefer to use the term coined by Freud, but explored quite a bit in regard to WW1 amputees and phantom limb syndrome: Body Ego. This is your brain's sense of your body, a cognitive sex, which may not be the same as your actual body. Modern scientists believe this sense of one's body is happens due to hormone washes in utero, so this is seen as basically brain chemistry and therefore physical/cognitive. This is why I think the word "gender" should not be used here. But it currently is being used that say, sadly.

Now for your claim that the physical (which we call sex) is either male or female...this is also incorrect. Medical experts look at 4/5 different characteristics to determine someone's sex:
1) Chromosomes
2) Hormones
3) Gonads
4) Genitalia
5) Gender Identity--though they usually can't ask babies this one, so it is often not taken into account in initial sex assignment.

Chromosomes, which you might think of as being binary (xx or xy) are not binary. There are also other combinations. xxy, xxx, xyy, etc
Hormones, testosterone and estrogen. Did you know excess testosterone in your body is converted to estrogen? Bodybuilders doping figured this out much to their chagrin. Also, all people have both estrogen and testosterone and various levels. These are responsible for our secondary sex characteristics (hair, voice, boobs, etc)...but they fall on a continuum, not in two separate boxes.
Gonads, testes, ovaries..the internal reproductive bits. These are sometimes missing. Sometimes there are people who have a vagina/vulva...but also testes (a friend of mine had this situation).
Genitalila, penis/vulva. But people can also have ambiguous genitalia.

None of these things...all of which are on a continuum rather than a binary necessarily will line up with each other either.
We have decided to arbitrarily decide that there are two physical sexes...but bodies are not in a binary. For more on this topic read the very excellent: Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality by Professor Anne Faust-Sterling. You can also check out Joan Roughgarden's Evolution's Rainbow.

The world is more complex than black and white.

Similarly, in the US we have the "races": black, white, Latino, Native American, Asian. But why are those the 5 races? There was a time when there were more recognized racial categorizations: mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, etc. In South Africa they recognized Colored as distinct from Black or White.

What I'm trying to say is that physical phenomenon are perceived, interpreted, and understood by subjects who were raised in societies--so they too are both subjective and social constructs. Things...including our physical bodies...are only binary because we have constructed them that way. And in other places and times we haven't. At this moment, people are wanting to recognize the complexity of nature again.

[Quelcezot]

I appreciate your comment trooper. As you've correctly pointed out I was misusing the word gender, using the term sex would have been more appropriate. I doubt I'm as knowledgeable as you are, but I am aware of gender as a social construct. As it happens I am also aware of the history of "they", but it seems irrelevant to my dislike for the clumsiness of it.

My claim that you're referring to was that things are physically male, female, both, or neither. It doesn't surprise me that scientifically there is more variety than this, but it seems to me that ultimately this doesn't affect the point I was trying to make.

So a broader interpretation of my claim would be simply that "sex exists physically". It was not my intention to claim that I had expert knowledge of the intricate workings of sex in a scientific sense. I do not think that level of understanding is necessary to correctly assume that sex physically exists.

From my perspective you've only addressed very minor technical details of my post without actually considering the point I was making. I am grateful for the correction on my use of gender, but otherwise I would be more interested in your opinion on what to me the term "non-binary" seems to imply. Which is the reason I don't particularly like it.

I suppose as an umbrella term it works quite well. Writing about characters who are not stereotypically male or female, who are therefore not binary.

But at the same time it oddly enforces the idea that binary is the norm. You've no doubt noticed that I'm not really a fan of individualism and that I'm quite tactless. To me the term non-binary appears intentionally exclusive of the "normal". I feel down when I keep seeing terms like this springing up that seems to force people into narrower groups. I don't believe in gender as you define it at all, which I imagine you have some shared sympathy for. So it annoys me to see a term that accepts the status quo while sectioning off a portion of human beings from the rest.

It strikes me as an indirect and self directed term that is quite solipsistic.

That's the crux of it.