Should we be encouraging?

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Rinima
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Should we be encouraging?

#1 Post by Rinima » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:24 pm

Should we be encouraging the artists on here to up the average price for art?
I've just been looking though some of the newer artists on here, and their prices seem to be higher than the older artists, and at first I was confused by it, but then I though "Why aren't the other artist's charging this much? It's clearly within their capabilities to do similar level art."
I'm not saying we demand they push their prices up either, if their not comfortable doing it, we shouldn't force them, but still encourage it so they can make more money of their trade and make a living?
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#2 Post by BrokenAngel75 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:42 pm

It's true some artists do undercharge themselves and I think they should price there work enough so they can have some food money and income. My problem is though, for EVN's, it's very hard to make a living, so I don't think artists should go in thinking they'll make super amounts of money with vn's novels. Now yes EVN's are growing, but a good amount are made by people who mostly do it for fun. Do note that even people doing it for fun will be willing to spend some money, but for them it's very different from someone who is making vn commercially. I've seen some artists who actually have two types of prices. One price set is for vn's that are being made for free while other is for commercial vn's.

Now I know someone's going to say 'save up if you want to make a vn,' but life isn't that simple. I believe artists in this community should keep prices fair though not as low as some are now. Also there can sometimes be a problem of prices being too pricy. One person wanted 10 dollars for a single expression and I don't think that's a fair price for an expression, especially if the commissioner doesn't get at least 5 free expressions.

Also I've been talking with some people and they have actually said commissioners shouldn't pay till everything is done. Don't know if you ever saw my thread about commissioning, but I feel like if one payed a high price and then right in the middle of the project the artists drops it that would be a waste of a lot of money. I'd rather loose 100 dollars on two sprites then lose 300 with the same amount..

There also has to be some fairness when artists raise prices. I do know of at least two (not of here) who have ridiculous prices and there art isn't as good as some of the people's on here.

So if prices raise a bit I understand and no artist should be underselling themselves. However understand the EVN world is filled with many can't afford hundred dollars for a single sprite. Fifty yes but a hundred is unlikely. If prices start to get too high, I fear that less games might come out.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#3 Post by Rinima » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:00 pm

"Now I know someone's going to say 'save up if you want to make a vn,' but life isn't that simple." Don't worry, that's not what I'm getting at.
Obviously, I agree with the whole "keep the prices fair", obviously, it would hurt the artist community if no one wanted to commission, but I do feel like some (most) of the artists on here under-price (and before someone comes up to me and say "How am I meant to pay people to make art for me then? It's okay for you, you make loads" Nope, I make very little per month (£360 per calendar month, most of which, goes towards rent and food), so please don't threw that at me).
"However understand the EVN world is filled with many can't afford hundred dollars for a single sprite." I do understand that, and I never actually said "go into the hundreds", I said maybe raise it a little, aka, maybe to $60+ per full body sprite (estimate, not to be taken seriously as an amount).
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#4 Post by BrokenAngel75 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:11 pm

Rinima wrote:"Now I know someone's going to say 'save up if you want to make a vn,' but life isn't that simple." Don't worry, that's not what I'm getting at.
Obviously, I agree with the whole "keep the prices fair", obviously, it would hurt the artist community if no one wanted to commission, but I do feel like some (most) of the artists on here under-price (and before someone comes up to me and say "How am I meant to pay people to make art for me then? It's okay for you, you make loads" Nope, I make very little per month (£360 per calendar month, most of which, goes towards rent and food), so please don't threw that at me).
"However understand the EVN world is filled with many can't afford hundred dollars for a single sprite." I do understand that, and I never actually said "go into the hundreds", I said maybe raise it a little, aka, maybe to $60+ per full body sprite (estimate, not to be taken seriously as an amount).
Oh no I agree with you that many artists on here have too low a prices. Twenty five for a thigh up is a bit too small. I think 40-55 would be much better. And sorry if you thought I was saying those two things at you. I truly wasn't. I actually have been thinking about this for a while and was wondering what could be fair for everyone. I think 40-60 is a good way to begin.

Also I think artist should have two sections, prices for free vn's and prices for commercial vn's. I've seen at least three people on here have that and it's pretty fair.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#5 Post by trooper6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:15 pm

The problem is that there are a number of creators who say, "I'm making an amateur game, so I should only have to pay amateur prices"--but they want professional level art.

There are all sorts of amateur artists here who will make art for free...but that art isn't good enough for them. I think it is a bit hypocritical.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#6 Post by Rinima » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:25 pm

BrokenAngel75 wrote:Also I think artist should have two sections, prices for free vn's and prices for commercial vn's. I've seen at least three people on here have that and it's pretty fair.
I agree, I personally love it when I see artists use this technique for pricing.
trooper6 wrote:The problem is that there are a number of creators who say, "I'm making an amateur game, so I should only have to pay amateur prices"--but they want professional level art.

There are all sorts of amateur artists here who will make art for free...but that art isn't good enough for them. I think it is a bit hypocritical.
See this is my problem, I see to much of this, and as someone who enjoys commissioning (what can I say, I like supporting the community), I find it frustrating when I see other commissioners asking for lower prices on already low prices, it hurts my pride as a commissioner to see it happening.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#7 Post by BrokenAngel75 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:28 pm

trooper6 wrote:The problem is that there are a number of creators who say, "I'm making an amateur game, so I should only have to pay amateur prices"--but they want professional level art.

There are all sorts of amateur artists here who will make art for free...but that art isn't good enough for them. I think it is a bit hypocritical.

Yes, that is a problem and it's not right. If you're starting out and want to make an amateur game that's fine, but you shouldn't expect low prices. I saw someone who would only pay five dollars per sprite and an artist agreed to that...That's not good.

You need to expect to spend at the least 150 dollars for the first three sprites. It's like with a Kickstarter. You want to hire an artist, but using Kickstarter as your only means of money is a bad idea. To create good vn's you'll have to spend a good amount from out of your own pocket. I just think prices shouldn't sky rocket to the 100 mark for a single sprite. 50 is a good price for a thigh up since if a commissions has three characters (and many on here do) the artist gets 150 dollars and this isn't counting clothing, expressions, and so on.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#8 Post by BrokenAngel75 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:33 pm

Rinima wrote:
BrokenAngel75 wrote:Also I think artist should have two sections, prices for free vn's and prices for commercial vn's. I've seen at least three people on here have that and it's pretty fair.
I agree, I personally love it when I see artists use this technique for pricing.
trooper6 wrote:The problem is that there are a number of creators who say, "I'm making an amateur game, so I should only have to pay amateur prices"--but they want professional level art.

There are all sorts of amateur artists here who will make art for free...but that art isn't good enough for them. I think it is a bit hypocritical.
See this is my problem, I see to much of this, and as someone who enjoys commissioning (what can I say, I like supporting the community), I find it frustrating when I see other commissioners asking for lower prices on already low prices, it hurts my pride as a commissioner to see it happening.
Exactly =). I think the one thing an artist needs to be careful of is if someone says the game is free but later is going to make it commercial but wants to keep the prices the same. I always believe artists should keep a close eye on the project and see if it will become commercial. Now I know things change and sometimes free vn's go to commercial and that's fine, but I'm hoping no artist will get swindled =(

And thats not right at all. Commissioners shouldn't guilt trip artists. If an artist is offering 30 for a thigh up sprite then a commissioner shouldn't try and haggle the price down. Thirty dollars is actually very low in my opinion. That should maybe be a starting price and then one should go on from there.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#9 Post by sei.chan » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:02 pm

I think we should. I've been doing this for half of the time I been in lemma and I still dont know the average price! I guess It would be pretty helpful.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#10 Post by SundownKid » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:29 pm

IMO, the artist should be trusted to decide what price is the right price. I think that the free market ensures that artists will most likely find a good price. It shouldn't be forced upon them, not when people have no idea of the reasoning behind their pricing decision. Maybe there could be a pricing guide kind of sticky topic but otherwise I don't feel like it's necessary to specifically bug artists about their prices.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#11 Post by firecat » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:40 pm

i'm mostly the buyer on stuff like this, i cant say for everyone else on how they get money (*cough* kickstarter *cough* patron *cough* job) however we all do agree with one thing. if we like your art style we will buy it and try to offer best deals for you, however amateur buyers will always look for lower price. Then comes the problems in which the artist refuse an offer all because its not in their standard, its not really a big problem for us since we could always look for other artist who are more willing to take offers.

so ya its a hate love war, we have money that are o.k to spend, artist just want respect. we really dont care why an artist refuse that's that person problem, we have the money so sooner or later it will be spend with no risk.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#12 Post by trooper6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:23 pm

BrokenAngel75 wrote:
trooper6 wrote:The problem is that there are a number of creators who say, "I'm making an amateur game, so I should only have to pay amateur prices"--but they want professional level art.

There are all sorts of amateur artists here who will make art for free...but that art isn't good enough for them. I think it is a bit hypocritical.

Yes, that is a problem and it's not right. If you're starting out and want to make an amateur game that's fine, but you shouldn't expect low prices. I saw someone who would only pay five dollars per sprite and an artist agreed to that...That's not good.

You need to expect to spend at the least 150 dollars for the first three sprites. It's like with a Kickstarter. You want to hire an artist, but using Kickstarter as your only means of money is a bad idea. To create good vn's you'll have to spend a good amount from out of your own pocket. I just think prices shouldn't sky rocket to the 100 mark for a single sprite. 50 is a good price for a thigh up since if a commissions has three characters (and many on here do) the artist gets 150 dollars and this isn't counting clothing, expressions, and so on.
I agree with everything except the $100 is too much for a sprite comment. This is where I am in agreement with Sundownkid...the market will shake things out.

Would I pay $100 for a sprite that is the same generic anime sprite...that same generic quality? No I would not...but I imagine a lot of people wouldn't and that artist is probably not going to get a lot of commissions at that price and would have to drop the price in the end. On the other hand, if that artist offers something no one else is offering? If they are of a really impressive quality? If they have skills people don't have? If they are really in demand? If they are speedy and professional in every way? I could easily see such a person charging $100 or more and getting it.

I mean, let me tell you, if Ryoichi Ikegami showed up here and said he'd draw sprites for me at the price of $200 a sprite with all the works included? You best believe I'd pay that price...okay, it would be for a game that had no more than 3 sprites...maybe something based on Sartre's No Exit? But I'd pay that. And he is worth it.

Another example...let's say there aren't many artists who are really comfortable and experienced with drawing for livecomposite or drawing for the sort of animation you can do with ATL. Well...then..that person can charge more. I bet Obscura could charge $100 for sprite bits considering the uniqueness of her style and the experience she has with livecomposite.

Another example...let's say there aren't many people who can/will draw old people, or furry sex, or mecha, or overweight people, or people of color, or lumberjacks, or horses, or whatever...those people are going to be able to charge $100 a sprite...and they might even have to considering the market for artists who can draw overweight lumberjacks cyborg cat boys who are 75 years old.

I don't really think high prices are that much of a problem...I think that is self correcting. Low prices might be a bit trickier because there are artists here who are in high school and live with their parents and so they can afford to undercharge and might not yet have the confidence to charge what they should. But I hope they'd learn in time. Otherwise they just might burn out. I've seen this happen with programmers who say, "I'll do your entire game for $20!" Those people end up burning out or upping those prices.

Of course the programming problem is that no one wants to spend money on programming because "any one can do it." So people who want programming work end up having to charge basement prices...unless they are good no to make battle engines.

No one should be forced to do anything they don't want to do.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#13 Post by Kailoto » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:32 pm

I concur with what trooper6 expressed, and posit that it's the fault of the one doing the commissioning. Strangely, I find that writer-led projects tend to have unreasonably high expectations of art, while artist-led projects tend to have unreasonably low expectations of writing. I hypothesize that this is just a side effect of the mentality that quality artwork is more important than quality writing, but this also might just be my skewed take on things.

I still believe that people should have autonomy over how they price their services, and if they want to price low or high it's up to them. But I do agree that it would be nice if artists were a little more confident in their skills and valued their work more, and project leaders had lower standards for amateur projects.

Also, I find it funny that you mentioned the falsehood of "Anyone can do it!" for programming, because that's the one thing I've consistently found people can't do, or at least do well. Programming is a language, not a tool set, and it takes a lot of dedicated study to develop the skills needed for even average-level coding. Too many people out there think, "Oh, I'll just take a Python tutorial and only learn the stuff that I need," ignoring the fact that without any grasp of the fundamentals, they will have no way to construct any original code, much less code that actually does what they want.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#14 Post by trooper6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:55 pm

Lots of agreement with Kailoto...lots of agreement.

Especially the comment about unreasonably high expectations of art and unreasonably low expectations of writing. So much agreement.

I think the trickiness about programming is that renpy is deceptive. It seems so easy to make a game in renpy and everyone is so helpful in answering questions...anyone can do it, right? But I have been practicing renpy for years now, taking some Python courses online, challenging myself to figure out the answer to questions people ask in the forums not only to be helpful, but also to increase my skills, giving myself regular programming challenges...and yeah, I took some comp science classes in college...and have some experience with some computer music programming language skills....but you know what I learn every day on the questions thread? That I know nothing, Jon Snow! Getting better every week...but, as you say, it is a skill that takes some time to get really good at.

What makes me crazy? When people want someone to make them a complete and complex battle engine for free.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#15 Post by Kinjo » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:01 am

I agree with trooper6 and Kailoto about the programming. I don't mind if artists raise prices, but if so then programmers should raise theirs as well.

The idea that "anyone can program" is about as true as "anyone can write" or "anyone can draw" -- given enough time and practice, yes, anybody can do it. But the concept of commissioning someone is exactly so that you don't have to spend your time building up your skills. I'm sure one reason that coding is undervalued around here is because, in the first place, non-programmers wouldn't be able to recognize good code apart from bad code, and when you're playing a game, you can't actually see the code, either. It's not easily visible, unlike art or writing, which is instantly seen and judged. It's sort of the magic glue behind the curtain that holds everything together, so nobody actually pays attention to it (and really, the less often people notice it, the better job you've done). But it's an integral part of any game, so I think if anybody needs to raise their prices, it's the programmers.

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