Should we be encouraging?

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Tempus
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#16 Post by Tempus »

Encouragement to the ones providing services is good and necessary, though I think that only addresses part of the problem.

Generally speaking, artists get paid best. In part this is due to the nature of how games are initially seen, understood, and promoted: visually. Art is the quickest of all the skills to evaluate and the easiest to judge. Online, you can see art by accident. You can't really do the same with writing, code, editing, or music. In short, finding an artist is probably easier than finding any other skilled person because you can process a larger number of them in a given period of time. The result for artists is that they're seen by more people simply due to the nature of their medium.

I think the big problem though is that creators aren't educating clients on what they're doing. If people think that putting quote marks around their dialogue in Ren'Py is on par with creating a battle engine, who's fault is that really? If you have no understanding of programming it's impossible to evaluate. It's the programmer's responsibility to communicate what they're doing and how much work is involved. Otherwise their service is a blackbox—money goes in, code comes out, and who knows what happens in the middle.

I haven't looked in the recruitment sub-forum recently so this mightn't still be the case, but I've noticed in the past programmers wouldn't share any examples of their code. So:
  1. Write a piece of code that does something Ren'Py doesn't by default.
  2. Demonstrate the functionality with a video.
  3. Share the well-commented code and accept that people can steal it. Make the code look nice too. Maybe take a screenshot of it in your editor with pretty syntax highlighting. You're now leveraging some of the immediacy of art to advertise your non-art service.
  4. Show how to integrate it into a Ren'Py project.
Now you've shared at least some of the work involved by showing code and explaining it with comments, and potential clients can see the results and even try it out themselves. I guarantee a programmer doing that can charge more than one who doesn't. It's how I'd advertise my programming services if I were going to.

Encouragement without education doesn't help the artists (or musicians, editors, etc.) understand why things are as they are. Most folk seem to think it's a problem with cheap clients trying to rip people off or that there's just not enough demand for X. For the first one I think the saying "never assume malice where ignorance will suffice" applies. I think most clients are well-meaning. As for demand... yes there are many things outside your control but there's also many things inside of your control. You are, for example, in control of where, how, and what you advertise. Here's a checklist I wrote of things you're in control of when advertising your services. I think demand is determined by circumstances and the creator—you can create demand for an entire class of service if you do it well.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#17 Post by Kinjo »

Tempus wrote:I haven't looked in the recruitment sub-forum recently so this mightn't still be the case, but I've noticed in the past programmers wouldn't share any examples of their code. So:
  1. Write a piece of code that does something Ren'Py doesn't by default.
  2. Demonstrate the functionality with a video.
  3. Share the well-commented code and accept that people can steal it. Make the code look nice too. Maybe take a screenshot of it in your editor with pretty syntax highlighting. You're now leveraging some of the immediacy of art to advertise your non-art service.
  4. Show how to integrate it into a Ren'Py project.
Now you've shared at least some of the work involved by showing code and explaining it with comments, and potential clients can see the results and even try it out themselves. I guarantee a programmer doing that can charge more than one who doesn't. It's how I'd advertise my programming services if I were going to.
That's actually a pretty good idea. Not sure why I didn't think of that before (or why others aren't doing it). I did link to "games I have programmed" but I agree that an open-source sample of work would be a lot more enticing.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#18 Post by chocojax »

I remember being HIGHLY encouraged to raise prices, on here and on other sites like tumblr. I haven't been on here recently, but encouragement is always good. Really though, people can learn from their mistakes on their own. If an artist completes a commission where they could've easily earned twice from working a minimum wage job, they may feel overworked and adjust their prices for the future.

@Kinjo: Yes, I do agree with you, programming is an integral part of the game/VN. But, I could easily say the same (people who do X craft should be the ones to raise prices) for stuff like art, music and writing, since they can easily enhance or break the player's experience. So... I guess I just believe that everyone should be charging decent prices where they aren't working for slave wages.

@Tempus: That's a really good idea! I can see why people haven't thought of/haven't done it already though. :O

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#19 Post by Rinima »

SundownKid wrote:It shouldn't be forced upon them
trooper6 wrote:No one should be forced to do anything they don't want to do.
Not sure if that was aimed at my OP, but I'm not sure why peeps are saying this when I said
Rinima wrote: I'm not saying we demand they push their prices up either, if their not comfortable doing it, we shouldn't force them
On Tempus's idea, I agree, it is a very good idea.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#20 Post by Kia »

I think everybody should be paid a fair amount of money for the amount of time they spend and not to forget consider the amount of experience the have but we should consider all type of situations. IMO the answer is percentage. There is 4 major roles in each visual novel (artist / writer / GUI designer and coder / leader and marketing) and I think each should get around 25% of the sum but there are different types of project with their unique budgets.
I also categories them in 4 main methods and added a little opinion on how they should split.

pre funded projects:
usually leader have a story in mind that wants to make a game out of it and he/she is willing to pay for the costs. in this case i think a fair split is:
artists 35%
writers 35%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 5% for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

midway funded projects.
usually small free amature games that leader wants to make some money out of his Idea.
artists 25%
writers 25%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 25% they should pay for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

revenue share projects.
a bit bigger games than midway funded games that aimed for the big sale at the end.
artists 25%
writers 25%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 25%
everybody should chip in for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

free projects.
these projects are fueled with love and generate fame. as long as everybody is credited properly they are fine because: "fame equals money (Kia many many years ago)"

I should mention that usually the people use multiple methods to fund the games.

you might think I forgot musicians but since the feed on fame and usually don't ask for much you can pay them from GUI and coders budget or leaders share.
you might also think I'm unfair to GUI and coders here and there but since I'm one and I know their part is usually a on man operation that don't scale with the game size they can spare some of their share every now and then. what do you think?

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#21 Post by trooper6 »

Kia wrote:I think everybody should be paid a fair amount of money for the amount of time they spend and not to forget consider the amount of experience the have but we should consider all type of situations. IMO the answer is percentage. There is 4 major roles in each visual novel (artist / writer / GUI designer and coder / leader and marketing) and I think each should get around 25% of the sum but there are different types of project with their unique budgets.
I also categories them in 4 main methods and added a little opinion on how they should split.

pre funded projects:
usually leader have a story in mind that wants to make a game out of it and he/she is willing to pay for the costs. in this case i think a fair split is:
artists 35%
writers 35%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 5% for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

midway funded projects.
usually small free amature games that leader wants to make some money out of his Idea.
artists 25%
writers 25%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 25% they should pay for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

revenue share projects.
a bit bigger games than midway funded games that aimed for the big sale at the end.
artists 25%
writers 25%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 25%
everybody should chip in for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.

free projects.
these projects are fueled with love and generate fame. as long as everybody is credited properly they are fine because: "fame equals money (Kia many many years ago)"

I should mention that usually the people use multiple methods to fund the games.

you might think I forgot musicians but since the feed on fame and usually don't ask for much you can pay them from GUI and coders budget or leaders share.
you might also think I'm unfair to GUI and coders here and there but since I'm one and I know their part is usually a on man operation that don't scale with the game size they can spare some of their share every now and then. what do you think?
I'm not well disposed, and not only because I'm a musician. The fundamental problem is the idea that if it is a free game everyone should work for free, for exposure. There have been lots and lots of discussions on the internet about how asking people to work for free is exploitation. Here is just one:
https://litreactor.com/columns/why-you- ... ng-payment
It is geared towards writers, but it has lovely quotes...I especially like: "Exposure is not payment, it's something hikers die from."
This idea that we should all be working for free is especially convenient for the project lead(s)...not so much for the rest of the crew who need to pay rent.
I'm not excited about lumping GUI designer with coder. Those skills do not necessarily go together.

But finally, I don't really know what these percentages are supposed to represent. Is this the percentage split from profits after the game has shipped? (Profits which might never come and then all the workers did work without pay?). If that is the case the pre-funded split model is...just terrible. The project lead pre-funds the game with all their own money, continue to spend money on marketing and does all the work of team leadership (which is not insubstantial)...and they get 5% of the profits? How is that fair?
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#22 Post by Kia »

I should've explain more about each method and again that what I think is a fair percentage of the whole money that is spent or earned on the game.
let's consider the first case even though it rarely happens to see somebody pay all from pocket and not consider a kickstarter on the side.
pre funded projects:
usually leader have a story in mind that wants to make a game out of it and he/she is willing to pay for the costs. in this case i think a fair split is:
artists 35%
writers 35%
GUI designer and coder 25%
leader and marketing 5% for small expenses like website and steam greenlight.
let's say somebody have 1000$ and wan't to turn his Idea into a game. he naturally takes the leader position and as a side job he is in charge of marketing either he plans to publish the game for free or he wants to sell it.
since all he wants to pay is that 1000$. for making the game and any money after that doesn't concern the team. he should pay from pocket if he is planning to hire marketing people. and the 5% is for the exposure ^_^ that actually benefits the team in a way. as employer he won't have to pay himself either that means more for the rest of the team.
as a visual novel the majority of the game depends on "visual" (artists) and "novel" (writers) and they should take this extra money. even though GUI and coding is an important part of the game, amount of their job usually stays the same despite of the game length. that's why they are able to to give a fixed price without asking much about the game.

about lumping GUI designers and coders, from my experience it's a bad Idea to have someone design and another code the same thing. often I had to put up with amateur coders who had no Idea how to turn my design into a working interface and I had to teach them their job. same when I'm cider for somebody else's design I ended up to design everything myself. of curse with two professionals it won't happen but the odds are against a good combo.

about musicians and payments. most of them don't even need the small amount of money that comes out of these projects and they participate as a hobby. I teach music production every now and then and saw no one who wanted to learn music for the money. then again if you decide to pay for professional music take some % from everybody and allocate it to music.

let's say your game sold more than 20,000$ how much would you pay your team members as leader?

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#23 Post by Katta »

Kia wrote:let's consider the first case even though it rarely happens to see somebody pay all from pocket and not consider a kickstarter on the side.
I think you're wrong here and it happens much more than you think but you can't know it because you don't see these projects on KS or on some other special web-site.
Kia wrote:let's say somebody have 1000$ and wan't to turn his Idea into a game. he naturally takes the leader position and as a side job he is in charge of marketing either he plans to publish the game for free or he wants to sell it.
So that made me wonder, what kind of project you can get for your hypothetic 1000$, the only possibility that came to my mind is this: free sprites (there're plenty awesome free sprites), free bgs, free music, free coding by yourself, 800$ for the writer and 200$ for either a GUI (this is the level of prices for gui here on lemmasoft) or title screen image, something promotional or stock bgs (f.ex. from dlsite) - and that will give you half an hour short game (as the writers' minimum is 4c/word). So what do you think how much will the leader be able to get for this game?

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#24 Post by Rinima »

Kia wrote:about musicians and payments. most of them don't even need the small amount of money that comes out of these projects and they participate as a hobby
I don't know where you've been looking, but most of the musicians on this site want payment, and honestly, the insinuation that musicians shouldn't be paid/don't need to be paid makes me quite uncomfortable, sine music creation is a skill just as valuable to a project as art, writing, programming and marketing is.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#25 Post by firecat »

So that made me wonder, what kind of project you can get for your hypothetic 1000$
well thats easy to answer

http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost ... 1501413649

and the wikipedia has made it into an official definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game

and oh flappy bird was made under $1000

http://flappybird.io/

the evidence is clear, very clear.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#26 Post by Ryuno »

Kia wrote:about musicians and payments. most of them don't even need the small amount of money that comes out of these projects and they participate as a hobby.
Are you sure no one else is doing it "as a hobby"? Because by that logic it's pretty easy to get out of paying everyone else. In fact, they should pay you for the opportunity.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#27 Post by Lesleigh63 »

The geographic distribution of artists may reflect how much they ask for commissions.
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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#28 Post by Morhighan »

Rinima wrote:Should we be encouraging the artists on here to up the average price for art?
I've just been looking though some of the newer artists on here, and their prices seem to be higher than the older artists, and at first I was confused by it, but then I though "Why aren't the other artist's charging this much? It's clearly within their capabilities to do similar level art."
I'm not saying we demand they push their prices up either, if their not comfortable doing it, we shouldn't force them, but still encourage it so they can make more money of their trade and make a living?
One of my fellow GUI artists and I were just complaining about how people on Lemmasoft offering free GUIs really hurts our market. I mean, we don't mind it for free projects or to build a portfolio, but if you have quality work, please charge something comparable to market prices (within your comfort range of course) so that there's at least a bit of fair competition, which according to economics is beneficial.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#29 Post by Camy »

I'm one of those GUI Designers that Morhighan mentions. I've done free work for Our Final Moments but that was before I had a portfolio. The creator just asked nicely over FB, and after hearing more about the game, I accepted it since I knew it would grant me exposure and I felt confident that I could do it.

I echo Morhighan about charging when you have quality work. I will add on that a GUI designer should only offer for free when you see the game being advertised in the free area. Recently I offered to do one that is small and couldn't pay others to join the team since it's a fan made game. I took a look at it, liked it, and offered to do it for free since I wanted to help out.

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Re: Should we be encouraging?

#30 Post by Katta »

These free GUI artists are so few, even fewer than free bg artists (I've never seen one offering their services in 2 years) - yes, many GUIs are done for free, but either for friends or on special requests - how can that possibly hurt the market? The most harmful would be default Ren'py GUI then.

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