Should we be encouraging?

[Green Glasses Girl]

One of my fellow GUI artists and I were just complaining about how people on Lemmasoft offering free GUIs really hurts our market. I mean, we don't mind it for free projects or to build a portfolio, but if you have quality work, please charge something comparable to market prices (within your comfort range of course) so that there's at least a bit of fair competition, which according to economics is beneficial.

Say someone who produces good work wants to work for free - maybe out of goodwill, or that they really like a project enough to volunteer their services, or because the creator cannot afford to pay- that the artist should hinder the availability of their work simply because it's taking an offer from another artist? I'll be blunt here - if the fear is that person who is doing top-notch for free is threatening your pool for potential clients, that is really no concern of that person. Especially if they are supplying free resources because they understand many cannot afford it. If you believe quality artists should start charging prices to people who can't pay, what makes you think they'll be able to pay for your work either? They won't. So the only alternative is to step up your game. You are going to have to improve the quality of your work to a high enough caliber and have enough references/previous work experience that people will want to buy your work. Or adding something a little extra that will attract attention. You want people to say "You know what? Even though that other artist has decent work for free, I wouldn't mind paying for this other person's work because it's just better." That is healthy competition. But telling good artists who choose to work for free that they should start charging because of the "economics" of the market? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

[Hazel-Bun]

Have to agree with Katta. Free GUI is really really rare here. I usually see free sprites if anything else. Even in the Creative Commons section sprites are what's mostly posted from my 3 odd years here.

I agree and am encouraged more people are offering artist advice! I wish it was easier/more prevalent in writer/musician/etc. threads too. I know that I started with very high prices, adjusted them way down, got commissions, then bumped them back up. It's all a learning process and seeing what is and isn't in demand. I'm still much slower and inexperienced (especially in art as I've only been doing it seriously for a short while now), so expecting me to charge so called "professional rates" (this is all in the eyes of the beholder/dictated by the market you work in) was pretty daunting when I had nothing to show and everything to prove. But, encouraging people to aim high first is a good habit as it's always easier to adjust it down rather than bump it up!

Also, Les makes an important point. Someone living in say the Phillipines won't charge USD rates comparable to someone living in LA in the USA. Even where I live in the USA wouldn't need the prices needed to survive in LA. Also, as others have pointed out like Trooper, those who live at home or with roommates, have no kids or real bills, etc. aren't thinking about "supply and demand" and the like. They're trying to get a few extra dollars for a game or some shoes till they can get a workers permit most likely. Or, if they're an independent adult, maybe a little extra for a rainy day while also holding a more stable job as their main source of income.

[Morhighan]

But telling good artists who choose to work for free that they should start charging because of the "economics" of the market? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

My point wasn't the economics or my client pool. But I'll be sure to step up my game, sure. Go figure no one's hired me in months.
The one major issue is that people expect quality work for cheap, or even for free. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.
THAT is what hurts our market.

[Hazel-Bun]

@Mor a fair point! The expectation that work should come free of charge or at unsustainable prices is hard to beat. That's the nature of capitalism unfortunately, you always gotta compete with someone who can do it faster, better, and or cheaper than you.

[Camy]

These free GUI designers posting are not doing it friends or special requests. As I said, I've done free work, but I didn't advertise it. I went to someone and offered it or they came to me privately. Again, if they want to do it for free, then awesome, great, but when they post with a topic for any kind of game in the Artists subforum, those are the ones that we are talking about that are underselling themselves. They have to make all the states with each screen/asset including default/ground, ground + hovered, selected, and among other states depending on the buyer. Even when I work fast, it takes a long time, and it's why we charge a lot.

This goes for all artists and not just GUI Designers when someone posts "____ for free." It's not about improving yourself, it's about buyers thinking "Oh they're doing it for free, why bother to pay."

[Morhighan]

As a side note, this reminds of that nagging fear some forum members have discussed about having their artists disappear. I'd venture that when money exchanges hands this would happen less often. It's happened to me before (artists disappearing after I pay them), and I've even had some people take the money and run... but for the most part doing an exchange of some sort really helps the work get done.
Also, as a side-side-note when commissioning art, don't be afraid to do contracts, it protects both parties.

[Green Glasses Girl]

My point wasn't the economics or my client pool. But I'll be sure to step up my game, sure. Go figure no one's hired me in months. The one major issue is that people expect quality work for cheap, or even for free. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.
THAT is what hurts our market.

Ah, okay- that makes more sense. In that case, I agree with that point as lowballing is an issue. No one should feel as though their work is worth less than it is. I guess this is where the encouragement comes into play - by telling others not to sell themselves short. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Rossfellow]

Input from a friend.

"I charge rates according to our local market(Philippines)'s standards. The fact that I get clients from overseas is actually unexpected. If I raise my rates in accordance to the stronger currency(dollars), then PH clients will no longer be able to afford my work. If I charged clients differently based on where they live, then that would be terrible business practice."

As mentioned earlier in this thread, difference in living standards also plays a large role in pricing for art. For some, that $25 torso-up sprite is actually a decent wage, though a pittance if you live in the USA.


Now, for my input on it. While I believe that underselling is a common problem among starting-out professional artists, it's not something that's solved by simply raising rates, or setting up a consensus price. I believe this is a very individual issue, and each artist would charge differently based on many different factors.

Example: I have artist A who works for $10 per hour and artist B who works for $20 per hour. It seems like an unreasonable gap at first, then I saw that artist B can do in one hour what artist A does in two. Giving them the same rate would be unfair. So we agree on prices based on what it takes to produce usable work.

[Morhighan]

My point wasn't the economics or my client pool. But I'll be sure to step up my game, sure. Go figure no one's hired me in months. The one major issue is that people expect quality work for cheap, or even for free. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer.
THAT is what hurts our market.

Ah, okay- that makes more sense. In that case, I agree with that point as lowballing is an issue. No one should feel as though their work is worth less than it is. I guess this is where the encouragement comes into play - by telling others not to sell themselves short. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It's fine. ^u^

[Kailoto]

I think the point is that for the most part, people need to have more confidence in the value of their work. LSF (and many other communities frequented by amateurs) has an atmosphere of humbleness. Many people are naturally timid, and are afraid of sticking out or being ridiculed for high prices, so they aim lower (or don't charge at all.) The more people that do this, the higher the chance of a newcomer looking around the forum and lowering their prices as well, either to compete or because they judge the value of their work by comparing it to similar work that is also underpriced.

It's not like there's anyone actively hurting the community or trying to cause trouble - the person offering their services for free means no harm by it - but collectively, it becomes a problem. Likewise, the problem can't be solved by singling out an individual group and holding them accountable; it requires a shift in the attitude of our community.

[trooper6]

I just want to agree with Kailoto and add another worry.

I want really high quality artists to come to LSF and advertise here. Those people are expensive. If they look around and see that we don't pay our artists here...or when we do, we are very cheap...they are going to think LSF is not a place that it is worth it for professional artists to spend their time looking for commissions.

I want some of the best professional people to advertise here and not be scared off by people saying that artists shouldn't get paid $100 for their professional work and musicians don't need to be paid at all.

I do believe that if we stick around *exclusively* in a space where no one expects to pay or be paid, where we are seen as primarily mid quality hobbyists, that will make it harder for us as a community to up the overall quality of our output.

But if we are dominated by people who see making games as a hobby and feel happy to work for free or for the equivalent of tips...well... I don't see what can be done to change it.

[Rossfellow]

A lot of these "My free amateur game shouldn't need to pay for its staffing!" comments come from complete beginner devs. Mostly highschoolers without a concept of income, or companies who don't value art in any form. Like all customers, they have to be educated in how this market works.

If they don't listen, move on. It happens. That's why Clients from Hell exists. No system we try to enforce will keep bad tomatoes from spawning. It sucks, of course, but if you let it beat you down, you lose.

Aspiring professional artists in here LSF (If they happen to be starting out here rather than mainstream channels like Pixiv, DevART, Soundcloud, Wattpad, etc.), need to learn to evaluate their work. Treat it like running a store. They need to learn to manage their merchandise(skills), their budget (time), and their brand (what/who they cater to) and let those influence his/her rates. They start cheap/free because they'd rather not think about these things, but they'll have to. (Edit: Or they want to build a portfolio, another reason for going cheap.)

Hmm. Maybe we could really use people who can teach that. Start a workshop or something. In fact, isn't that the whole point of the Asset Creation sections?

Edit: Thread already exists. http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 46&t=21933

[Kia]

800$ for the writer and 200$ for either a GUI (this is the level of prices for gui here on lemmasoft) or title screen image, something promotional or stock bgs (f.ex. from dlsite) - and that will give you half an hour short game (as the writers' minimum is 4c/word).

more like 3-4 mid level characters and few backgrounds (350$) a short story (350$) simple GUI and title(250$) they can't afford complex coding and paid music though. but don't take everything literally, if you think a game costs 2000 or 5000 go ahead and split that with that percentages. my point is the sum of budget should be splitted among the team fairly.

So what do you think how much will the leader be able to get for this game?

nothing, he is the one who is paying and he can pay himself 10$ every 10 sec if he like. nothing will happen...

The geographic distribution of artists may reflect how much they ask for commissions.

I agree, where I live art is more money consuming than making, we hardly have more than 1000 professional artists who depend solely on art for living. and it get worse when it comes to music. here nobody pays for music and nobody makes money out of music X_X. stucked in my artless environment I can't even find an artist who can produce digital art for my games, I have to learn everything myself...

and the wikipedia has made it into an official definition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game

wow... it IS a real thing and not just what I think ^_^ I didn't even know.

I don't know where you've been looking, but most of the musicians on this site want payment, and honestly, the insinuation that musicians shouldn't be paid/don't need to be paid makes me quite uncomfortable, sine music creation is a skill just as valuable to a project as art, writing, programming and marketing is.

I'm not saying we shouldn't pay for music. I'm just saying: comparing to character/BG artists rarely anyone asked me to pay for their music. maybe because the know that the music belongs tho hem at the end and all we have is permission to use it.

The most harmful would be default Ren'py GUI then.

yes it is^_^ and I'm glad to see this many GUI artists concerned about their part in the games. I saw many games that didn't even consider hiring a GUI artist for their game and many ugly looking games are hurting my eyes as well as public image of Visual Novel genre.

The one major issue is that people expect quality work for cheap, or even for free.

I think more harm comes from the people who don't expect/know quality work at all. when I find out that people got paid for that "ugly look" I mentioned before... other places than my eyes start to hurt as well

it's about buyers thinking "Oh they're doing it for free, why bother to pay."

It is about buyers but in some other way. we should give them a reason to pay. not frown upon those who do it for free. the only reason they go towards free work is they think they found a good enough quality for their game.
we should show and advertise the quality and make people demand higher quality. nobody can do free quality work for long and they naturally convert or weed out.

LSF (and many other communities frequented by amateurs) has an atmosphere of humbleness.

we should keep this humble and welcoming atmosphere and ton intimidate the newcomers. instead we can praise and show good works to give them examples and make them aim high.

I want some of the best professional people to advertise here and not be scared off by people saying that artists shouldn't get paid $100 for their professional work and musicians don't need to be paid at all.

I din't say that musicians shouldn't be paid, I would be extremely happy if I can get paid for my music but I saw many who work for free it made me lean tward other fileds.

But if we are dominated by people who see making games as a hobby and feel happy to work for free or for the equivalent of tips...well... I don't see what can be done to change it.

I know what we can do. we can highlight great artists, designers, coders and their greatest jobs then show them as the sample of our community and let everyone else do their thing under their shadow.

@Rossfellow that clientsfromhell.net is quite amusing I'm enjoying every line I read ^_^

[Katta]

I want really high quality artists to come to LSF and advertise here. Those people are expensive. If they look around and see that we don't pay our artists here...or when we do, we are very cheap...they are going to think LSF is not a place that it is worth it for professional artists to spend their time looking for commissions.

But is it really? Professional artists charge 400+$ for one piece, music is 600$/piece, I don't even want to think how much is professional writing - is there really anyone here who can afford that?
I mean, is that really so bad to be a community of hobbyists? I thought that was what Ren'py is for - so that everyone could come and easily make their own game, professionals can hire professional programmers.
This discussion seems to imply that cheapskate project leaders are ripping off poor artists/writers/etc. and if everyone raises their rates they will have to pay these rates - but no, they won't, they'll just stop making their free game (or even commercial, because commercial doesn't mean huge commercial success and tons of money). And I don't mean "My free amateur game shouldn't need to pay for its staffing!" people. Will that still be beneficial for the artists? Well, maybe (they won't get more money but will have to do less for that). Will this be beneficial for a game dev community? I don't think so.
Also there's absolutely no correlation between being paid/being paid higher and being responsible (doing the job in time, not running away with money, etc.) - I also thought there is, but that was before I started commissioning people.

more like 3-4 mid level characters and few backgrounds (350$) a short story (350$) simple GUI and title(250$) they can't afford complex coding and paid music though.

Whatever, what I meant is that it won't be anything I'd pay for. So that when you see people gathering several thousands on KS it's not about splitting the incomes, it may just be enough to pay the basic costs.
And splitting fairly greatly depends on the exact project in question (f.ex. workloads for each person can vary greatly between more gameplay/less words sim and a lengthy kinetic with 3 characters), and imo it should only be talked about when everyone takes the same risks (to lose money or effort).

[Zylinder]

I think the problem with art pricing here in LSF can be summed up as a) the exchange rate and b) confidence levels. I don't think the transactions between free artists and free devs really hurt anyone. Free devs who won't or can't put up the money for 3-5 usd sprites aren't more likely to put up that money if all the free artists in the world disappear. It's like the inconclusive argument about piracy: will more people buy your product if it can't be pirated? Would they be potential customers, or were they never customers in the first place?

More likely, anyone who can't put up that money in the first place will just resort to releasing their game with CC stuff, or not make it at all, and you're really only losing games and the opportunity for art experience.

What can be somewhat addressed is the problem with the exchange rate, some kind of pricing tutorial (I do see some floating around in LSF in the past) would at least educate people on the possibility of charging more. Speaking as someone from a 3rd world backwater, I CAN get by on 15 usd drawings if I kill myself on cup ramen. But I've since learned not to do that. Mostly from online tutorials, especially the ones from American artists that note that they can't, and it ain't neighbourly to do so.

Also: a kind of art pricing thread, where artists can go to quickly get some kind of feedback as to what their art is worth. This would have really helped me out when I was starting out and had no idea what my art was worth.

Professional artists charge 400+$ for one piece, music is 600$/piece, I don't even want to think how much is professional writing - is there really anyone here who can afford that?

This too. The highest prices in the LSF artist's sections barely scrap the bottom of professional artwork - depending on how you define what professional artwork is. The fact is that an artist would charge for art in this forum very differently than say, a trading card forum where they're expected to make MTG ripoffs, because MTG ripoffs have a whole different price tag than what is predominantly an anime sprite battlefield.

This is a hobbyist forum, and the prices are all hobbyist prices, and it won't be a scene for real pros without eliminating half its userbase.