Admin Action 2008-06-14

[PyTom]

I had to delete a number of posts in this thread, including several by long-time forum posters. (I have also deleted several short posts expressing surprise at what was posted, but left two posts that I thought had reasonable amounts of content.)

I want to remind everyone that civility should be foremost on your mind when posting on this forum. You are, under no circumstances, to post messages that disparage other members. While reasonable comment on projects is in-bounds, simply mocking someone's project based on IRC memes is not. This is not 4chan.

I am especially disappointed that it was several long-term forum members, accomplished game-makers, that were responsible for this. I exhort them to reconsider their behavior. I would rather avoid having to take more complicated admin actions, but I will should it prove necessary.

I dislike having to take a hands-on approach to forum administration. This was the first time I've done something so drastic, but I believe it was necessary. I hope not to have to do so again, but that will depend on the behavior of forum members.

I remind people to follow these guidelines WRT to keeping the forum civil:

- Please think about what you write before posting it. Be sure that what you write is worth the server space and bandwidth it takes up, if not do not post it.

- If you're posting to mock someone or something rather than genuinely contribute, do not post.

- If you don't like the topics the forum is talking about, post your own damn topic to change it. (Just be sure you have something to actually say.) There's this whole anti-Type-Moon undercurrent that's been running throughout the forum, and especially in the IRC channel. It's time someone starts a topic on that so we can have our say, rather than snarkily sniping good-faith users.

These rules apply both to new users and established users alike. I do not wish to have to take huge amounts of time to moderate the forum, especially when I'm busy preparing my forum spam defense. But I will if necessary.

[mikey]

I'll split my message into two parts. Part 1 is about posting, politeness and other things about being human:

Even though I wasn't part of this particular thread derailing, I can recall one or two times when I also was impolite on these forums - it didn't seem like that to me at that point, I was in a good mood, or frustrated, or I didn't think that I was heard, there are many reasons. I think this is a very human trait, and sometimes even with the most care, you offend someone. Or you simply want to bring your point across and choose some unlucky joke or tone. Happened to me, too, since I often like to be sarcastic for the fun of it (mostly among friends) or sometimes get into 10-year-old boy mode.

So it's not really avoidable and I wouldn't feel disappointed in that sense, that some of that was made by established members, since it's not really tied to the number of posts. And all that really matters is how you deal with it once you spot that it wasn't so appropriate, that someone was offended and so on. Me, I directly apologized via PM to the people, and in all cases, that settled it, plus an explanation in the thread, if appropriate.

And that's really the point - it's not about weighing every word you say (though of course a standard awareness and politeness should be there, but this is I think not disputed) because things like this happen, it's really about how you react when something goes a bit in the wrong direction. On a technical level, of course, either the mod deletes or moves the parts, or the person can do it himself - and on a personal level, just make sure it's all clarified, preferrably directly.

Lastly, it's also important not to take this too seriously, meaning once it's clarified, being able to forget it relatively quickly and not remember for all eternity that this one time I was offended, because this is how all the really bitter and/or absurd flamewars start (of course the above mentioned thread thing is FAR from this). Nevertheless, for this community it already qualifies as unwanted, so it's good to address this, to maintain the general atmosphere here that is such a defining feature here. So a pointer every once in a while, like this thread, is good and will be needed every now and then.

And also, importantly, I wouldn't attribute this to specific persons, but actually if we are a community, this is something that happens in the community, even if maybe the thought seems logical that this is just a few "enfants terribles" (hope this is correctly written) and if they stop, all will be well. Often it's these small "incidents" that remind you that something is not so optimal - and force you to discuss it. Which is always good.

..................

This leads me to Part 2 - and this is something I've already been saying a long time, so let's do it once again. I really think it's time with all the forum growth to give the community more structure - and please don't mistake this for more control - structure is not control or heavier moderation or stricter rules. Structure means meaningful sections that allow you to see more clearly where to place your opinion and where it will be heard. There should be a good overview, a sort of dashboard / FAQ of not only the relevant threads, the game list, archiving and publishing options, but also a place to hold all community-related accomplishments. So many people contribute and so much useful information is given that without structure, you cannot hold it effectively and a lot of it will get lost, buried and not directly available - and it is happening.

It's not difficult to remain polite and attentive in a community made up of 20 active members, and it's not difficult to have a good overview when there are just a few threads - but more members doesn't just mean securing more bandwidth and storage space - the structure needs to change to reflect that, because then it becomes more clear where to do and find what. If people know where to say opinions, where to give practical advice, where to encourage, where to fool around, where to complain about the world, where to find completed games and so on, they will immediately feel more secure and post more appropriately.

And I also believe that with more structure and with some simple initiatives where people will be able to see that their contributions (e.g. keeping a list of games, making fan art of other people's games, making free resources, posting an essay etc..) have meaning and that they will not disappear of become obsolete. This was in my opinion the "problem" with the LSF@5 initiative (do something for the community - free-to use artwork, fanworks etc...) and I remember PyTom started to doubt it a little bit afterwards, whether it was a good idea because of something that was somehow related to that, it may have been the inability to find an editor for the RAA... anyway, I think the problem with that was that while the intention and the actual work was done, the structure wasn't there to actually hold those results, and if it was there, it wasn't functional. The Community Wiki isn't used at all, the RAA is with several responsible editors and therefore (understandably) no one feels responsible, and some of the good things like the tarot cards need to be dug out - even the multilanguage translation of The Question that so many people participated in, where is it now?

So even if there is effort, without structure it isn't channeled into spaces where it will be used and seen, it not only frustrates those who created it, but also prevents others from benefitting from it. Again, it's acknowledged that the community grew (even that Lemma picture is now more provocative and sex-aware than the cutie Lemma from before), so why is it (so it seems for me) not acknowledged, that the community needs to have a different structure and more accessible tools to respond to this? There are now so many good things having been done here, that there must be means of keeping them available - because it's always the unselfish things that differentiate a community from just a group of individuals.

To put it very simply - the forum structure must change*, the Wiki must be made more effective* and the RAA must be maintained*. Direct moderating, identifying "bad guys" or reactive measures alone will not solve the issue in the long term.

* and I know no one has time to do this, as it is a lot of work - but the first step is to acknowledge that these things should be done (identify the problem, so to speak) and then we can look for a way to fix it.

[PyTom]

Structure means meaningful sections that allow you to see more clearly where to place your opinion and where it will be heard. There should be a good overview, a sort of dashboard / FAQ of not only the relevant threads, the game list, archiving and publishing options, but also a place to hold all community-related accomplishments.

The original idea was that this would be what the community wiki was for. But so far, no one has really stepped up to maintain it. And there's so much on my plate that I don't want to commit to maintaining something new.

I would be interested in specific suggestions on how to reorganize the forum to improve usability.

[Samu-kun]

the RAA is with several responsible editors and therefore (understandably) no one feels responsible

*raises hand* Yeah, I'm one of the losers who have promised to look after the RAA and have failed miserabily. Sorry, I had no idea that my entire Internet connectivity would just fail all together if I just as much opened a second internet browser while uploading a game onto the archive. -_-; For some of the bigger games, it takes roughly 1-2 hours to completely upload all three versions of a single game, and a hikikomori like me wouldn't be able to survive without Internet for that long. I shall try again tonight! God willing, you shall see some new games on the Archive when you wake up tommarow.

I hope. o_o;

[mikey]

I would be interested in specific suggestions on how to reorganize the forum to improve usability.

I've done a mock-up Maybe it can be a base for further discussions... I have no real idea if some things are technically possible - just writing what comes to mind, so... my explanations behind this are:

The Lemmasoft-specific section of the forum has honestly become obsolete. Keeping the name is tradition, keeping the section is dysfunctional.
Suggestion: Distribute the topics to the appropriate sections - finished, WIP.

Let's Hentai Hentai is completely wrong - it integrates completed games, WIPs and general talk all into one.
Suggestion: A tickbox for 18+ topics that will hide /disallow looking at them. This way the relevant threads can be found intuitively in the appropriate sections.

Remove Fan Connection, move topics to Offtopic

Move General/Offtopic down as the last thing.

Community resources - the much-needed new section for reference / resource content. Best in conjuction with the Wiki. No discussions, perhaps just one allowed "Suggestions" talk or so. I don't know how this can be done, though. Direct links to the wiki, perhaps, and one link that is actually a normal forum topic for discussions?

Game artist's corner - not sure about this, but there has been a lot of on-topic art in the Art-Dumpage thread, that maybe an art section wouldn't be bad. Of course you can still post your joke pictures in the Offtopic section

The original idea was that this would be what the community wiki was for. But so far, no one has really stepped up to maintain it.

I thought about something that may help - having the same login to the wiki as we have to the forums - somehow linking the two, maybe later decide on a functional layout like vndb.org for some sections.

And there's so much on my plate that I don't want to commit to maintaining something new.

... also, this wouldn't solve the problem. The goal is to motivate people so that when they have some free time on the internet and happen to have a break from the commitments, they will choose nicening up the wiki instead of browsing YouTube, because it will feel more rewarding and meaningful. It's not an easy thing to achieve, though. But you know, baby steps...

[Samu-kun]

Wooaahh... Actually, a lot of Mikey's suggestions do make sense and sound cool. I'm interested in seeing how the community resource forum will turn out in particular. :3 Just one little thing though: I don't really like the fact that "finished games" has its own category. Personally, I think I don't like creating a whole new category just for a single forum. Maybe we should put it under the "Making Games" category instead.

Mmm... Even if the new board restructuring does sound cool and all, I should warn from experience that just creating and deleting a couple of forums probably won't change the nature of the message board itself. Even with these changes, there'll probably be just as much good and bad behavior as there was before the changes. I'm afraid that we shouldn't lay it all out on the administration to be able to magically solve all our problems. They aren't super humans who can miraculously change the nature of the board. It honestly all depends on the direction the community takes, not on the number of forums and sub-forums we have. :3

[PyTom]

Let's Hentai Hentai is completely wrong - it integrates completed games, WIPs and general talk all into one.
Suggestion: A tickbox for 18+ topics that will hide /disallow looking at them. This way the relevant threads can be found intuitively in the appropriate sections.

This isn't technically possible. Permissions work on a per-forum basis. So we could have Completed Games and Completed Hentai games, but we can't combine them into a single forum.

Community resources - the much-needed new section for reference / resource content. Best in conjuction with the Wiki. No discussions, perhaps just one allowed "Suggestions" talk or so. I don't know how this can be done, though. Direct links to the wiki, perhaps, and one link that is actually a normal forum topic for discussions?

This is the one I go hmm about. I don't like the idea of a section of the forum where discussion is discouraged. Perhaps we should just put a more prominent link to the community wiki on the site, and encourage people to upload things there. (Are people comfortable with the use of a wiki?)

Game artist's corner - not sure about this, but there has been a lot of on-topic art in the Art-Dumpage thread, that maybe an art section wouldn't be bad. Of course you can still post your joke pictures in the Offtopic section

Another one I'm not sure of. Wouldn't on-topic art go in WIP? Or should this section be fore people who want to contribute resources that can be used in any game?

I thought about something that may help - having the same login to the wiki as we have to the forums

Another difficult one, I'm afraid.

The goal is to motivate people so that when they have some free time on the internet and happen to have a break from the commitments, they will choose nicening up the wiki instead of browsing YouTube, because it will feel more rewarding and meaningful. It's not an easy thing to achieve, though. But you know, baby steps...

That would be really nice. We have a few people already doing this (for example, DaFool's tireless maintenance of the Ren'Py Games List). But more would be better.

You know, I'm still not sure what specifically is wrong with the forum. I mean, I get the sense that something has changed in the past year or so, but I'm not sure what it is. Certainly, I can no longer keep every forum user and every thread in my head at once... but is that really a problem, or just the inevitable result of the forum growing larger?

Comments appreciated.

[Cybeat]

Uh...I hope I'm not changing the subject or anything, but what's up with the anti-Type Moon thing?

[luminarious]

Mikey's mockup makes a lot of sense to me. I support.

[lordcloudx]

Well, I apologize if I've offended anyone with that one deleted post I made. I just wanted to poke fun at "someone's" anti Type-Moon sentiments; not offend Kraken. I personally have nothing against Type-Moon.

Suggestion: How about imposing some limitations on the type of posts in some of the more serious, but not so technical parts of the forums such as the Work-In-Progress Section and Game-Maker's corner? Like the 3-sentence rule that I've seen in some message boards. Sure, it won't stop people from making nonsense posts, but it will eliminate the likelihood of one-line responses or image replies (like mine) followed by 4chan style memespeak.

As for the development of LSF over the past year, I've noticed factions starting to grow and I believe this is an inevitable development as the forum gains more members.

[Samu-kun]

You know, I'm still not sure what specifically is wrong with the forum. I mean, I get the sense that something has changed in the past year or so, but I'm not sure what it is. Certainly, I can no longer keep every forum user and every thread in my head at once... but is that really a problem, or just the inevitable result of the forum growing larger?

Comments appreciated.

Mmm... Well, I haven't been around for as long as many other people, but I don't think I have noticed any big factions or anything come up lately. :3 It's not like there's a dark clique on the board that shadows certain members and always beats them up whenever they post something. And I can say that something like that isn't all that rare in other boards, so I'm not exaggerating here when I say that Lemma's actually a pretty safe board to frequent. What I'm the most worried about though is that some long time members might feel obliged to keep the board "clean" and start discouraging new members from posting. This is doubly likely if the said new member cannot write correct or fluent English. I don't really like members who can't capitalize or write coherent posts any more than any other Internet user, but it causes enormous disturbances to the rest of the board if we start weeding out members based on the contents of their posts. Anyways, what can start out of an well-intentioned desire to keep the board clean "just like it has always been in the past" can quickly spread throughout the board and cause fights.

[mikey]

This isn't technically possible. Permissions work on a per-forum basis. So we could have Completed Games and Completed Hentai games, but we can't combine them into a single forum.

Hmmm, that's not so great . Could a different forum software be the answer? Anyway, I found a problem with my suggestion - if there were 18+ threads embedded in the sections, over 18 people may want to see things at work, so if they log in, the LHH threads will be visible as well... so maybe a special login for over 18's "login worksafe" would be useful.

(resources) This is the one I go hmm about. I don't like the idea of a section of the forum where discussion is discouraged. Perhaps we should just put a more prominent link to the community wiki on the site, and encourage people to upload things there. (Are people comfortable with the use of a wiki?)

Maybe very simply clicking on that section would directly transfer people to the wiki's welcome page? This could be a very simple and effective solution... but from a systematic point of view, this should be a "section" of the forums IMO - since the forums are in many ways the community's meeting place as well as front page. We don't have a OELVNews.net kind of site.

(art corner) Another one I'm not sure of. Wouldn't on-topic art go in WIP? Or should this section be fore people who want to contribute resources that can be used in any game?

Q1: Probably, this was just an idea. Q2: Free art contributions could probably be announced in the general game-making thread, and then added to the wiki. So it may be there is really no need for this section... Whatever seems more intuitive.

(same loging for wiki and forums) Another difficult one, I'm afraid.

I was afraid as well. But somehow, we should really promote the wiki - thinking of implementing creator profiles - people could list their active projects and threads (and links to demos), something that's currently being done inside the people's signatures. We could have template pages and maybe a thread for helping edit a wiki to ease the process? I'm still "afraid" of the wiki, I have no tutorial, forgot my login...

You know, I'm still not sure what specifically is wrong with the forum. I mean, I get the sense that something has changed in the past year or so, but I'm not sure what it is. Certainly, I can no longer keep every forum user and every thread in my head at once... but is that really a problem, or just the inevitable result of the forum growing larger?

Comments appreciated.

Much like lordcloudx said, it's probably the latter (at the very least it seems logical and natural) - I don't actually think the attitude has changed, it's still very helpful (also, as we mentioned sometime before since this is a creative community, people usually are too busy being creative and "don't have the time" to make flamewars or be engaged in conflicts), but the mini-groups will definitely form - either around IRC, or around blogs - what the forums can do is make this a more effective meeting and archiving/help place. And I'm not really trying to bring back the "olde" feeling, since the current atmosphere is qualitatively very similar, enthusiastic and friendly. It's what happens when it's extended to more people. But it's good to have the means of keeping and easily retrieving the accomplishments of the community - either assets, games, or philosophies.

Anyway, I can definitely help with opinions and suggestions, but all my creative and supporting energy is gone until well into 2009 I'm afraid and I must use it, otherwise I will regret it for the rest of my life ^_^.

What I'm the most worried about though is that some long time members might feel obliged to keep the board "clean" and start discouraging new members from posting. This is doubly likely if the said new member cannot write correct or fluent English.

I don't think this is the problem here, it may well be that the majority of users here aren't natively speaking English, so language was never treated like that, really. In any case though, there is indeed a difference between someone who can's speak English well and someone who can't be bothered to write well. But unless it's actively counter-productive, there should be no reason to moderate that - the board has a good history of ignoring these things.

[DaFool]

In a way I think we can also be happy that 'critical mass' is reached. There was a time when I was worried that I was posting all the time and people might think I was such an attention whore. Now its mostly many new people posting and I'm happy for that.

Well all the topics that are relevant have been learned through hands-on experience and completing actual projects, so there's not much for me to discuss anymore. There are so many works in progress now it's hard to keep tabs on them and suggest ways to maximize the feasibility of each one.

So here's hoping that whatever there is to learn, even if there are few pointers threads anymore about the problems of game-making specifically, that people will learn from experience.

[Mikan]

If we had a art/writing (general creativity) forum that isn't directly related to any specific game,
then we could also have people posting for crits so that they can improve their drawings or writings.
The "post your art" thread is OK for posting artwork for a few people to see, but you don't see a lot of people offering useful feedback
(It's mostly "x, I love the colors!!" or "it's so cute!" -- relatively useless fluff comments that have very little objective meaning)
and doesn't really help people develop their ideas and abilities.

[papillon]

I'm not sure how much critical feedback you'd get even if there were a dedicated board, because art is secondary to the original purpose of the forums and many posters may not have the skills to provide detailed critique. Somewhat more, probably, simply because it would be easier to organise and pictures wouldn't be so quickly swept away by the latest posts in that giant thread of doom.