Wats the update on Tol2???

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Shuin
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#91 Post by Shuin » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:40 am

next week will be the 6 month late anniversary of this game..
6 months ago, you said this game would be finished
it is still not finished
yes, it's a free game etc, but this is still so unprofessional...

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Sai
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#92 Post by Sai » Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:06 am

Yes it's a free game. So since when was it claimed to be 'professional'? I don't mean by quality, but by standards of the process with which the game will be made. It is going to be done by *one* person. Programming, art, music, story and so on. Professional games are done by teams, hence why there are fewer delays (they still can get delayed months though... but you get the point). Also 'professional' places mean that the game would be their job, it'd be what they do, what they're paid for, their career, a part of their working life. This is a free game so this is not the life of the person making it, infact everything else is their life. Studies, achieving a paying career and life come *first*. Programming a free game for fun, second, it is not their working life so unlike a 'professional' place where they would go through the motions as part of their life, a person doing something in their personal free time would not have such a timeframe, if anything the timeframe for such projects would be non-existant when the daily grind of life kicks in.
I've got lots of home/non-profit projects I'd love to do myself in my free time, but the key words their are FREE TIME! Something I have little of right now. My REAL 'professional' projects and work come *first*. Otherwise I could find myself picking up pennies on the street, and then my personal projects would get nowhere, pennies don't pay rent.

If anything I think Lemma should take all the time he needs or wants. Better it not be rushed for the sake of it being available, and also if it's a free project it needs to be fun, running to unnecessary deadlines of other people wouldn't be very fun...

It's great you're that eager to see the game, but I just felt I should put down that reality is not a non-profit game called ToL2 I would of thought. And we can't always turn from reality, it faces us head one whether we like it or not, and these fun hometime projects come later after those confrontations.
Maybe you could make your own "ToL2" or other dating sim in the meantime? It is pretty easy to do a basic dating sim, just some basic knowledge of programming would be required (tip: read up on IF contitionals). If you feel you can churn out one faster then go for it, and we'd love to see the results (note: that wasn't sarcasm incase it sounded like it o.O ). It's all about having fun with this, if people aren't having fun in their own time with it, the project gets pointless and empty....

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Re: ...

#93 Post by Grey » Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:55 pm

Shuin wrote:next week will be the 6 month late anniversary of this game..
6 months ago, you said this game would be finished
it is still not finished
yes, it's a free game etc, but this is still so unprofessional...
<_<

Well I should leave this place then and move onto greener pastures, where the people who make these sorts of games for free bring them out when they say they will.

To me it seems highly out of order that you can complain about something Lemma's doing in his own time, then giving you for free...

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#94 Post by Blue Lemma » Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:48 pm

I understand the annoyance at the game's delay. It bothers me, too, and I obviously don't feel good about it. However, circumstances come up in life that make delays like this happen.

Why ToL 2 has been late:
* One of the artists ditched the project partway through
* I made Shoujo Attack! while looking for a replacement artist, effectively putting the game on hold
* I wasn't able to find a replacement artist, so I have to do more character art myself
* University classes, homework, finals, etc. have reared their ugly heads
* I've been busy getting ready to move to another city

Also, I'm still learning how to do this game website thing. Although I've been making games for a long time, this is my first experience having an Internet audience. I'm still figuring it out, and I'm gaining a much better understanding of the time it takes to do the little things that are necessary to release games to the general public. They say the last 10 percent takes as long as the first 90 percent, and boy are they right. :?

As for the whole "unprofessional" thing, I'm not a professional game maker. I'm a semi-professional programmer (still in college, but I've had paid jobs) but programming and game making are two very different things. If I started charging people money for each game, then I think they would have a legitimate complaint if the products/timelines were unprofessional. But since that's not the case, people can't reasonably and fairly expect everything on the site to be professional. As a matter of fact, I'm over $200 in the hole on website expenses alone. Then there's the software and hardware I've bought that I probably wouldn't have if I weren't making games: Photoshop, Illustrator, a digital camera, sound effects CDs, and who knows what else. I know I've spent at least $600 on those things. My family and I are certainly not rich, and I've only been able to buy good computer-related equipment due to the fact that I worked my tail off in school and got good scholarships and now some internships. One of the reasons I make free games is that I could rarely afford the games I wanted when I was growing up. I want to give people who don't have much money to spend the opportunity to play fun games. I know some people turn to piracy for that, but I'm offering a 100% legal alternative. :D

A couple people help on some of the projects, but that's mostly limited to music or some art. Basically everything else is done by myself: Programming, writing, game design, finding/making sound effects, the rest of the art, formatting the art and music, etc. I and the people who help on certain projects do the best we can to create entertaining games of high quality. It's up to the visitors to decide whether or not they want to play them, as well as if they're willing to drop by the site once and a while to see if they've been released.

So although not really a job for me, I enjoy making games a lot. One thing I've definitely learned from all this is to be VERY generous with release date estimates! :lol:

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#95 Post by Zintar » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:46 am

Well Shuin, I know how you feel but things happen that one
doesn't prepare for.

If you were waiting for the LoveRevo project, you would have pulled
all your hair out by now, thats if you have any. :twisted: And thats a group effort project.

Big-up!!! :wink: , to BL who finished 2 games and is almost complete
with the 3rd -Tol2. 8) For one guy its a great effort - taking into
account his studies, work and running and updating this site and
his great drawings. I'm not sure if I mentioned everything their. :roll:
Feb 26, 2004 - Trinity Riot *hands Zintar the 101 Posts Award*
Feb 25, 2004 - Blue Lemma *awards the 2nd-2nd-Place Shoujo Attack Prize to Zintar*
Nov 06, 2003 - Blue Lemma *hands Zintar the Pointless Post Award*

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Jerails
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#96 Post by Jerails » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:52 am

Yup, everything said and done, everything of this caliber takes a great big chunk of our much needed time. It's not like the good ole elementary reports that took maybe two minutes to piece together and ten minutes to write. These things are like elections in America: You're gonna get a whole lot of "recounts" along the way!
It's been a while, folks!

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Trinity Riot
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#97 Post by Trinity Riot » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:15 pm

Well, Lemma, I can recommend some cheap hosting and free website management solutions.

Host: FuitadNET: Their cheapest plan gives you: 3 GB storage and 25 GB bandwidth for around 5 dollars (US) a month :P

CMS: e107, a powerful (and free!) content management system. It includes forums, member stuff, a news system, download management, etc...

No, I don't get paid to advertise them; it's just that I've used the above before and have had great experience with them! Hope you consider these options! :P

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#98 Post by Shuin » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:31 am

i say professional because i find everything looks very professional and seems to be done by a person that knows what he's doing. i didn't want to start an arguement about this, but i juts found that with the quality of work you produce and how good the site looks, that something shouldn't be late by 6+ months. i've been checking in and out for 6 months to constant dissapointment that it wasn't out yet, and i couldn't hold it in any longer

i say it as a fan of lemma's work. i dont know how to make these games, and dont have the time to learn, nor the driving force. i also know i wouldn't be able to make things up to this quality even if i did attempt it

i know it takes time, and i dont want a rushed product either
but 6 months is a long time

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#99 Post by mikey » Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:17 pm

I was also wondering what the matter was with TOL2. But: I can perfectly understand BL's dilemma - as for me I could afford to finish Black Pencil quietly and put up info about it when I was 99.9 percent sure nothing could delay it. The game was practically finished. This is also the case with Grey's Kasuka. Although this is well in accordance with the famous Rule #1, B.Lemma's site also has to attract people and keep them coming back. I could be working on a second game and no one would have to know. But since Lemma Soft has many fans, the pressure for some basic info about a new project is big.

Anyway, to side with Shuin as well, I'd say if there is so much trouble with TOL2, maybe remove it from discussion - officially freeze it or so. Shoujo Attack was superb and the release nicely managed. I think everyone understands that from-fans-for-fans is only done in spare time and at own expenses, but not many people actually care about this. To them it is just a delayed game. And if I recall it correctly, it says in the game-making rules, that postponing a project too much will result in the fans not visiting the project site at all.

But I think we all agree that one has to be grateful and honor the people that make free games for us (yeah, you can count me in too :wink: I make no secret about it, had I not visited Lemma Soft and had I not read the Rules, Black Pencil would never exist. Thank you Blue Lemma.)

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Jinnai
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#100 Post by Jinnai » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:45 pm

Had i known you were looking for an artist...
See what happens when you go away for such a long time...

But anyways, even proffessional games, espicially rpgs and simulations, are pushed back quite often, sometimes up to several years.
)'.'(
Power of Sqyishyness!!

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Xarbia
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#101 Post by Xarbia » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:59 pm

Personally, I never talk about the games I make until they are finished. I just like the idea of being able to stop working on a project if I want to without dissapointing anybody other then myself. This doesn't mean I do that often - it is just a more relaxed way of programming. However, the temptation is very strong when you are working on something and you are enthousiastic, to tell people about it.

If you do tell people, and you are able to cope with the preasure, there is nothing wrong with that. However, if you make a promise you should do everything in your power to keep it. I also think that if you do and still cannot keep it, others should respect that. Perhaps it will learn you to make more realistic promises though.

I am honored to write the 100th post in this thread. That's almost twice as many as in the entire forum on ToL1. Conclusion: unfinished games are more interesting to talk about than finished ones. Once a game is finished it is interesting for a short while, and then fated to slumber for eternity. Games in progress are what people talk about, future enjoyment is much more exciting than past enjoyment. If you want to have an active forum about your games, you'll have to anounce them in advance, and take the risk of breaking your promises.

I really think Blue Lemma is doing well in this aspect. The delay is regrettable, but I have seen promises being broken far more severely. We'll keep waiting patiently.
My website now also in English!

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Blue Lemma
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#102 Post by Blue Lemma » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:45 pm

Host: FuitadNET: Their cheapest plan gives you: 3 GB storage and 25 GB bandwidth for around 5 dollars (US) a month
Thanks for the info, but my current host (Lunarpages) is only slightly more and offers almost twice the bandwidth 8)
Although this is well in accordance with the famous Rule #1, B.Lemma's site also has to attract people and keep them coming back. I could be working on a second game and no one would have to know. But since Lemma Soft has many fans, the pressure for some basic info about a new project is big.
It's so true! :cry: Someone who understands! :cry:
And if I recall it correctly, it says in the game-making rules, that postponing a project too much will result in the fans not visiting the project site at all.
That's why that special surprise is coming :wink: In fact, I'm working on it more right after I post this. It's ToL 2-related, and a lot of the work will make ToL 2 that much more complete! *hint hint* :wink: :D
Perhaps it will learn you to make more realistic promises though.
It's taught me, that's for sure! :shock:
I am honored to write the 100th post in this thread. That's almost twice as many as in the entire forum on ToL1. Conclusion: unfinished games are more interesting to talk about than finished ones."
Of course! This is all just a clever forum traffic-generating ploy... 8) :wink: I've actually been sitting on ToL 2 for a few months now, but the increased site traffic is too good to give up. :lol:

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Jerails
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#103 Post by Jerails » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:07 am

There are also those people who finish the project, never announce it's completeness, and instead try to milk out as much hype as they can from the fans. It's evil, but it's also very kinky! Being teased without knowing it is one of the most kinkiest things to talk about!
It's been a while, folks!

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Erik
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#104 Post by Erik » Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:20 pm

Um... I'm milked for hype? :lol:

Anyway, I completely understand the status quo (= the mess you're in) as I'm in it myself too. In the meantime, I'll just be the hyping fan, ok? :P

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#105 Post by mikey » Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:35 pm

I agree with the Unfinished Game Forum Phenomenon (UGFP - a nice new term for the lexicon), although I think in this particular community people have very little tendency to do it, most of them (hopefully) want to give something back to other fans.

It is nice to have people talking about the unfinished game and it certainly helps the popularity. But once you've received an e-mail from someone asking you how to get a specific ending in your game, you will realize that is a completely different sort of "discussion", although, admittedly a less active one.

There is also a certain something about the surprise tactic, when a game appears out of nowhere. The game can for instance profit from the fact, that no one knows about it and there are no (high) expectations. So I guess the choice is up to the individual. I've made mine already :wink:

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