The VN or The KN?

[Shamsia]

For a KN, I can read a book, and I love to read. If I play a VN, it is because I want to have choices and different endings, like a choose your own adventure book.

I prefer VN, even if they are harder to create (I tried a little project with seven endings, and now I am going for a simple module with 25+ endings and little to no story), because they have replay value, and sometimes it can be used in a very interesting way.

[Amecha]

I don't like KNs. Simply from my consumer's opinion I just don't like them and would rather not spend my time on reading them. I'd rather pick up a book before any thing else and KNs don't even register for me as an option.
If I want a story, I get a book.
If I want a story I can influence, I get a VN.

But that's just me. KNs are great I just don't seek them out or enjoy them.

[Klawzie]

For me, personally, I don't read KNs and have no interest in them. I like being able to experience a story from different angles and "see what happens". A VN where nothing much changes if you do something different (not even getting more insight into a character or a cute or funny or terrible scene that wouldn't happen any other way) is always a disappointment.

I haven't yet run across a KN that made use of the medium in a way that I thought was interesting and ground-breaking and couldn't be done in any other medium. I've read a few that I enjoyed, but I always went into them thinking they were a VN and just staying for the story because it was short enough I was willing to see it through. I'm looking forward to a KN that really does something innovative. Please make them. If there's a thread with reviews of truly innovative KNs that use the medium to its fullest, I'd love to check it out and see what people have done since the last time I looked!

This is just me and should not make creators of KNs feel like they have to give up on their love of creating KNs or readers of KNs feel like they're "wrong".

[Aviala]

I don't really have a preference between the two but a lot of people outside the VN community will feel cheated if there's no interactivity whatsoever in a thing that they expect to be a game. So if you're looking for a wider audience than just the core VN/KN audience, it's probably good to either include lots of choices or some actual gameplay.

[Donmai]

As a story teller (and not a game maker) many, many times I wonder... do people really believe they can "modify the story" or "customize the story" to their taste? Do a VN player really have such power? Or is he/she always tied to what the VN creator(s) previously planned? Maktub? Use your illusion? To be good, a story must only tell me what I would like to read, or surprise me by showing unexpected points of view? Is a story with 25 endings really worth reading? Is it really a story, after all?

[Lumenue]

As a story teller (and not a game maker) many, many times I wonder... do people really believe they can "modify the story" or "customize the story" to their taste? Do a VN player really have such power? Or is he/she always tied to what the VN creator(s) previously planned? Maktub? Use your illusion? To be good, a story must only tell me what I would like to read, or surprise me by showing unexpected points of view? Is a story with 25 endings really worth reading? Is it really a story, after all?

This is a really interesting take on VN!

I think that with VN, it's not so much 'customizing' the story as much as it is affecting it. Players like to have the feeling that their decision affects the game in some way. It's not just with VN either, a lot of video games utilize this system where the player is given a choice of some kind. Mass Effect is a good example, and games like Life is Strange and The Wolf Among Us are sort of a hybrid between VN and video games that rely heavily on player decisions, and very little on actual gameplay (other than quick time events buuttt...)

Going back to the topic, I personally prefer VN because I like having to make decisions. It immerses me in the story a little more than KN do! On that note, I think an enticing KN would have to have a fantastic story since that's all the player has to work with. If a KN has an iffy plot and writing, it's harder to become totally involved, whereas VN have the advantage of decision-making and interactivity so it's easier to overlook flaws. Of course, I think both VN and KN should have good writing and story but I digress.

I guess the summary here is that I tend to hold KN to a higher standard than VN, but I'm fine with both if the story is good.

[trooper6]

To be good, a story must only tell me what I would like to read, or surprise me by showing unexpected points of view? Is a story with 25 endings really worth reading? Is it really a story, after all?

KNs can tell the reader only what they would like to read, and VNs can show unexpected points of view. I think the question of wish fulfillment vs challenging the player can happen regardless of the medium, VN or KN, just worked out in different ways.

As for the last pair of questions, is a story with 25 endings worth reading, is it a story? I say yes to both. But to appreciate emergent storytelling involves a different mindset...and letting go of ego a bit. Let me switch medium to explain what I mean.

Music. The form that people are used to in terms of seeing it as greatness is the symphony. Here you have a narrative of a genius composer, who expresses their inner inspiration through their composition written down in the score. The score is all Beethoven, and the musicians and conductor's job is to recreate the score faithfully and then the audience listens to it and marvels at Beethoven's genius. And each time you go back to the symphony, you are to hear the same thing and be moved the same way and be impressed by Beethoven the author yet again. This model becomes the measure against which all other music gets judged. And things that break radically from that model are sometimes dismissed as not even music at all.

But there are other ways of making music. Think of the jazz quartet. Here some people come together. They craft a piece of music together in the moment in conversation with the other musicians and also in conversation with the audience. The experience will be of that moment and no two experiences will be the same. It is less an experience of the composer's ego and domination, but of communal exploration.

A story that is immersive and improvisational, like the stories that are created by all the people around the table during a session in of an RPG, is still a story, and it is certainly worth experiencing if you value shared power and shared agency and shared creativity. Additionally, because of the shared responsibility of emergent storytelling, that medium can allow you to challenge players in ways that writer-as-sole-authority models can't. Something terrible happens in the KN? As a passive reader I have no responsibility. Everything belongs to the author. I can judge it, I can be moved by it, but I'm never implicated by it. There is a distance I can keep. On the other hand, I have been implicated as an active player in what happens. A story about colonialism that I am implicated in, that I am partly responsible for, that can challenge me in ways the passive story can't.

KNs can be good. And can be very fulfilling for the writer who wants to express their inner vision. And a dictatorial authorial experience can do things that a shared experience can't.

But it isn't the only valid experience. It isn't the only thing that is a story.

The only KNs I've enjoyed have been very short. Longer ones I haven't found compelling. And I am very reluctant to play a KN unless the reviews are good, or I know the creator's quality.

BUT, if I do or don't like KNs or VNs should not influence the OP in their creative choices. I think the OP should follow their creative vision. Some people won't read it if it is a KN...some people will seek it out because it is a KN. Other people will respond similarly with VNs. So make the work of art that matches your vision. Make it of as high quality as possible. There will be an audience that appreciates it. You can't please everyone. So just make something good.

[Klawzie]

As a story teller (and not a game maker) many, many times I wonder... do people really believe they can "modify the story" or "customize the story" to their taste? Do a VN player really have such power? Or is he/she always tied to what the VN creator(s) previously planned? Maktub? Use your illusion? To be good, a story must only tell me what I would like to read, or surprise me by showing unexpected points of view?

Of course it's possible for a reader to modify/customize their story, even without having any input but choices. Especially the more choices the writer gives them. The writer(s) may have written everything available in the game, but it doesn't mean they've accounted for what it's like to experience all possible combinations to get to an end.

There is always some sort of unintentional nature to any writer's work (how many people believe they understand hidden messages in the classics or song lyrics? they insist - even teach! - writer was really writing about X, even if the writer says, "No, that's not at all what I had in mind.") By a story being presented in segments that the reader can experience in different ways than the ones the writer(s) assume they will, I feel as if this unintended nature can only multiply.

I've seen Hanako Games comment on how people have played through Long Live the Queen in ways they never anticipated. Those stories where Elodie runs the gauntlet fate sets out for her are all stories that Hanako Games enabled, but did not set out, specifically, to tell. Because of walkthroughs created by fans, it's easy enough to say that it's possible that some possible combinations to get to an ending (or at least an achievement) are specifically ways that Elodie's story was never intended to be experienced - and yet are the ones most commonly experienced.

Now, you might be thinking, "Well, that's more of a simulation game, not specifically a visual novel - there are a lot of possible choices there." - but it happens on the smaller scale too. If a writer gives Otome Heroine the option to respond sarcastically, politely, or honestly to situations, they've given more possible interpretations of Otome Heroine than just Sarcastic!OH, Polite!OH, or Honest!OH, even if the only possible endings for Otome Heroine's game are only a Sarcastic Ending, Polite Ending, or Honest Ending. "My" Otome Heroine might be more of a social chameleon, responding in whatever way to the situations presented that seem to be most expedient. "Your" Otome Heroine might be polite to elders, but sarcastic to everyone but children, who she's honest with. It doesn't really matter if in the end we both got the Sarcastic Ending - we still experienced Otome Heroine's story in different ways. And while you might have come away with the impression that the ending was great, I might have thought, "I felt like no matter what I did, Otome Heroine caught the short end of the stick."

I really, really love that about games with choice. One of the things I love about Stardew Valley is that the story is different for every player. It's not a VN, though it certainly has story options, even if they don't necessarily change much about the story - but that's the thing... it has options. It also has randomized chunks of story in the form of comments from the villagers. They have multiple comments depending on the time of day and location on the map - and you get one of those dozen(s? of) possible comments per day. In my game, Robin mentions both of her children, Maru and Sebastian, in equal portions, leaving me with the impression of loving both of them equally. In someone else's game, their randomized comments from Robin were all or mostly about her daughter Maru, leaving them with the impression that Sebastian was neglected not just by his step-father (who talks only about Maru, as far as I can tell), but also his mother. They were surprised when I said I heard about Sebastian all the time. ConcernedApe, the developer, specifically left a lot of the story "open to interpretation" (and in general, straight up refuses to confirm or deny speculation) so that people could piece the bits of story together in the way that made the most sense to them.

That's the appeal of choice in games for me. The ability to string combinations together and say, "That is my story. The devs might have created it specifically, but having played through to all the endings, this is the combination that I've decided is the best way for me to experience this character's story. "My" Otome Heroine is both witty and kind and won't put up with jerks." And I think it's great that someone else's interpretation can be different.

Is a story with 25 endings really worth reading? Is it really a story, after all?

Is a fairy tale worth reading? Cinderella has been told in so many different ways, reinterpreted, reversed, turned inside out, adapted to different cultures, modernized, turned dark, turned saccharine, turned monstrous, turned goofy, made offensive, Bowdlerized, and pieced together from different parts from all over the world and made into story quilts. You'd think it'd be threadbare by now, but many people still love a good Cinderella Story. (I'm one of them and one of my own one-day games is specifically about making your own patchwork Cinderella.)

The advantage a game with a lot of different endings has is that unless it's an anthology game of some type, it's told under one vision - if not under one writer, then with a head writer making sure to unify the whole. Sometimes, the story is meant to be understood as a whole. There are many VNs I didn't appreciate after one or two endings, but did after I'd unlocked everything. (Or at least, everything I was aware of.)

An example I can think of is Cafe 0 The Drowned Mermaid. [The next bit won't specifically give any spoilers, but anyone intending on reading it who hasn't yet might want to skip it so they can experience it themselves.] Until I experienced all of the Heroine's facets - her hidden hopes and dreams, and her grudges and bitterness, I didn't "get" her. The story is honestly vastly underrated and it's rather a shame that a lot of people either won't get past their first ending or even go through the entire game judging it by their first ending rather than the work as a whole. I honestly don't think that a simple linear story could tell that story as well as the game itself could, even though it's not a story that really has "variations" possible (you only get an ending if you select choices in a correct combination, iirc). But it would be difficult to replicate that feeling of a soul working its way through coming to terms the way you can with a game.

What else could they be called than "stories"?

[marauderspirit]

As a story teller (and not a game maker) many, many times I wonder... do people really believe they can "modify the story" or "customize the story" to their taste? Do a VN player really have such power? Or is he/she always tied to what the VN creator(s) previously planned? Maktub? Use your illusion? To be good, a story must only tell me what I would like to read, or surprise me by showing unexpected points of view? Is a story with 25 endings really worth reading? Is it really a story, after all?

Of course, this is a valid point. After all, a Visual Novel is not a simulated reality where you can affect the world according to your imagination. You are given (authored) choices which ultimately lead to (authored) endings. However, I view VN's as 'What If...?' tales. We take a character, setting, and scenario and then create different routes depending on player choices. Like Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, VN's have very interesting meta-textual qualities in that they show us how small choices can have big effects on the world and on other people, which is totally true.

I believe the Kinetic Novel does have its place! It is a close relative to the comic book or the graphic novel, although it has its own conventions. Many people sincerely love KNs. For me, though, I have to say I am more interested in creating and consuming VN's, for the reasons above. I find the story branching in VN's to just be irresistible.

[Donmai]

Sincerely, and with all due respect, it's funny when someone says for the umpteenth time: "I'd rather read a book than play a KN", and then declare that he likes VNs "because they are like choose your own adventure books"... Why don't simply keep reading CYOA books then?
BTW, tell me where I can find those marvellous books with music, voice, sound, animation, timed narrative, etc.

[trooper6]

Side Note on the VN/CYOA analogy. I don't think it is a very good one. Not too long ago I played a VN that was just an electronic version of a CYOA novel. And...it wasn't good. Why?

CYOA novels tend to have lots of endings and the paths tend to be quite short. What brings you to one ending or the next is often a bit random (There is a path, do you turn left to the blue light or right to the red light? You go to the blue light and there is a cloud of treasure, the end! You go to the right light and there is a red dragon that kills you, the end!) What makes this work in a CYOA book is that the CYOA book is a physical thing. The process of flipping pages generates interest. It is fun flipping pages around. This isn't as fun in a VN when you can just auto advance to the next branch...the haptic is lost. VN's have adjusted and choices and endings tend to be written in a very different way than the old CYOA books. They aren't really alike. The ability to track variables and do more complicated things with save states puts VNs in a very different space than CYOA books. I think people advocating for VNs and choice would do better to refer to RPGs or Adventure games or IF games than CYOA books.

A note about KNs, I don't particularly enjoy reading regular novels in electronic format. I print out papers to grade them, I print out articles to read them. I have some books on my iPad's Kindle app...but I haven't read them...I keep gravitating towards print...graphic novel, prose novel. If what I'm going to be doing is reading for long stretches of time with no interaction on my part...I prefer that experience on paper. So that is a reason why I may enjoy a short KN but not long KNs.

But again--I think people should create what they want to create and just do it as best as they can. If a person wants to do a KN? Do a KN! If they want to do a VN? Do a VN!

[Shinoki]

I like both, but it's rather hard to say. I'll accept either one, but I suppose I do prefer KN more (unless it's the generic school life thing).

When you give me some sort of ultra amazing story with an unique setting and wow stuff, I would prefer a KN more because it's easier to get all the facts and details that you might miss when there are branching parts.

I also prefer reading KN that are moderately longer over the shorter KN since shorter KN feel like a bit of a waste of time to download. I tend to read them rather quickly and not really get into them because of the way I read (a kind of skim-read type of style). For the short things, having a few branches is nice since then I reread a few things, interact with the game, and get a bit more attached.

But yea, as trooper6 says: it's best to just choose which one you want to do more

[ghostpel]

I prefer KN. It's easier to pickup for some nice read. (It's definitely different from a book. Unless you ended up making a wall of text on an image background with some music to accompany a reader. hint: sound/visual effects do helps.)
VN demands more... mental, prepare to deal with game mechanism, or whatever developer throw at me. Need really great premise to make reader want to invest their time and effort. (ex. Going through the maze of choices for some guy I barely know? no thanks.)

But in reality, I'll download anything with interesting premise and to dive through any obstacle to get into good story.

[hoihoisoi]

I like reading both KNs and VNs. Although KNs are somewhat akin to reading novels, the extras you get like the visuals and music does add to a more wholesome experience. It builds the atmosphere around the scene much better as compared to a novel in which you could do that as well, but it requires more work if not a very powerful understanding of how to use language to convey such an atmosphere through only words.

VNs on the other hand I like as well seeing as you are given choices to venture into different routes along with the visuals and audio just like KNs. The only issue I have with VNs is that, there is usually only one True Ending in a VN, but the choices you make (The ones tailored to your preferences) will likely lead to a 'what if' end, which breaks my heart knowing that my favorite character in the game won't be together with the main protagonist because that was just a 'what if' route. But that's just a minor issue really, lols.

Still, both KNs and VNs are great story telling mediums and I don't mind playing both.

[Anyubel]

I prefer visual novels, but I don't really like it when you have to choose a character right away at the beginning (ie. Amnesia: Memories). I feel like it sort of ruins the surprise as to who you'll get, given that all or most of the characters are (hopefully) attractive.

Then again, I also don't particularly like making choices that lead to only a 'bad end', a 'normal end' or a 'best end' either. I think as the previous poster mentioned, I'd want to see multiple good ends based on choices. Though, I do know that it would be a pain to write all of the branches, even if its towards the end, so I can understand why sometimes this has to be done.

Either way, I feel like a kinetic novel could be a good project to start with in terms of writing. Overall, when writing a visual novel with multiple paths, one might get caught up with writing one path that others aren't as good of quality. I know I'm guilty of this... haha