Modifications in Visual Novels

[NialGrenville]

What? I'm confused. You're saying that that worlds are edited and not stories. But the first two examples you gave for Katawa Shoujo were new endings. Isn't adding new endings changing the story?

Not necessarily. Editing the story would be deluding the original story to begin with. Not the endings. To tack on a more "appropriate" ending.

I.e.:
If you beat KS with Hanako and the "end" of the story comes to a point.
You've probably seen the endings and what not, I suppose. Just in case you haven't, they basically just go on. Their lives never connect, at least in a more direct sense. Back when I played it, I was a little butt hurt.

But with the ability of modding, not editing. You can add a more "unified" ending. Even if its just more... Well NSFW stuff.


Placing it in a simple sense think about skyrim. People make mods that change the innards/endings (or even beginnings) of the game, and others that add totally new things to the game!. Then there are some that edit the game. Like the new full conversion mod (forgot the name, just watched someone play it yesterday thanks to Trooper6). The difference of editing and modding are very distinct. Its the addition of content in a way that is more pleasing (or less with that "realistic" feature. Which in turn makes it more immersive though) to the player.

Editing changes the experience on a large near FULL scale! Doing that should not be posted in the new "modifications" index if it is ever created. I also think it'd be so hard, and maybe even cause infringement. So editing v. modifying have very defined limitations within VN's.

[Darkmoonfire]

It still sounds like editing to me . You didn't like the ending, so you're changing it by adding more to it.
But I guess since I haven't played any of the games you mentioned, I might just be having difficulties following the examples.

[NialGrenville]

It still sounds like editing to me . You didn't like the ending, so you're changing it by adding more to it.
But I guess since I haven't played any of the games you mentioned, I might just be having difficulties following the examples.

Hmm... Okay lets look at Gmod, or Garry's mod.

The editing is nearly nonexistent because it is built without a legitimate story. Hence the name G(mod).

Next is something like CS:GO.

Skins are modifications, they may only be cosmetic. Still, they are modifications. They have to be accepted by the Valve Corporation though.

Lastly is like TF2.

Weapons have been modified by players to make them have varied stats and disabilities. They have to be accepted by the Valve Corporation too.

These are all visible worlds that are free more, or less, than one another.

Yet they all thrive on the same engine. Therefore allowing people to do the modifications for every game the same way. In a more story bound less "free" world sense. We can look at games like: Nearly all the Bethesda games, Dark Souls, GTA, Dragon Age.

The visual novel in a sense is no different than the others. They are all games. Also the definition of modify and edit are distinct to begin with.
Modified: Moderated; tempered; qualified in exceptionable parts.
Edited: Published; corrected; prepared and published.

You aren't correcting anything by changing endings in a sense. Like my prior comment. Because you're not 'correcting' it. You're just qualifying it to a standard that some people will like, or won't.

Maybe some people don't want to marry the character. That's why downloading mods are optional. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding!

[Zelan]

I think Darkmoonfire is right - since visual novels *tend* to be extremely centered around story, doing something like adding a new ending is a HUGE change, and not necessarily one that the creator(s) like very much.

It would be like taking a book, crossing out the ending, and writing one that suited your fancy. Is there anything inherently wrong with this? Maybe not, but there's the distinct possibility of the author being upset or angry about it.

If you don't like the ending of a book, it makes much more sense to do something like write a fanfiction with your preferred ending. If we keep this comparison going, the most logical thing to do would be to make a fangame rather than make changes to the original game.

The only modification that I think makes sense for a VN is something purely cosmetic, but even then, there could well be stylistic choices for the art in a VN that would be lost through modding.

I understand what you're trying to get at by comparing the modding of games to the modding of VNs. But the fact is, a visual novel that has no gameplay elements whatsoever is really more like a graphic novel than anything else. Most of the time, the artists want it to stay in its original form. Parodies and fan works are generally appreciated, but they don't take the place of the original work.

Consider Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. It's been remade, adapted, and parodied countless times, but these are always understood to be separate from the original play; to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever tried to actually change the accepted ending of Romeo and Juliet because "they didn't like the ending."

Now, if we're getting into VNs that also have gameplay elements, that could be a different discussion entirely, and one that I doubt a could bring much to the table for seeing as I haven't played too many of these. The one example that I am aware of is the one that I linked on the last page, RockRobin.

[NialGrenville]

You have a point, but modifications are subjective. Optional to say the least. You don't have to buy/download a game if you don't want it. To quote Trooper6 earlier. It's not pulling from creators for no reason. It has to be listed as "open-source." I'm not saying grab a project and modify it because you want. It has to be allowed by the original creator.

On the subject of a fan game. That would be fine, but that's a new experience. Not a qualification for a prior experience. To tackle the Romeo and Juliet comparison. The whole idea of modifying the story is just like parodying it. While the ending thing may be a little iffy (I guess). Changing aspects within the world aren't.

Back to Disabled Bae Simulator for this example:
The realistic mode I proposed: It doesn't really change any of the novel. If anything, it makes the player more dedicated to it.
Another one would be adding a running mini-game for Emi's story line. No story or context change, because you can always have the ending loop back to the original ending.
Even more could be a addition to that realistic portion. You'd make a visit to the doctors just to make sure you're fine.

So even without the endings making a little modification here or there (if given permission to edit the game). They add a little more fun, or immersion. Depending on how you play, maybe even scary/angering.

Just like all games have to be "open-source" to mod. VN's are no different in that manner. Thieving v. community fun are two different things.

While I don't say making a new ending is obscene if the game is open source. Like I said before, all those games. They have their own story and life they live. Still, some people will mod it to death in a sense that changes the whole game. With the full conversion mod as the example.

Novels are in and of themselves games. We can't deny that. People modifying them bother you? Say it's not allowed by making it closed. Stating so in the games thread. Maybe even archiving the game data, if they please. I've modified a few games that haven't had their files locked just to tinker around and see what I can do.

So while we have the subject: "It's a novel like experience." The response to that: "Yes! But it is still a game. So either close-source the game, or not"
So while we have the subject: "VN's with game-play elements are a different story" The response to that: "Yep, it'd have tons more to edit if the creator allowed the edit."
So while we have the subject: "It'd be better just to make a fan game, or fiction, etc." The response to that "That's kind of selective. That can get you in heated waters, take more time, and be a pest to write the cannon of the original games universe. While mods won't force you to think on the stories cannon."

Like I said, the object is not to steal. The object is that creators give rights to the community to freely edit their game. In a way that will allow them to understand more coding, enjoy the cannon of the story still, revamping things, and even revitalizing the experience with different endings/choices.

Then to have a section dedicated to that specific subject. Showing the original creators, and the community what they've done.

If I were to lay out a list on this subject:
1) The game would need to be listed as "open-source" in their thread.
2) The modifications are to add a new context, or qualifier
3) Modifications, by default, are optional to download and play. If it doesn't meet your qualifications don't get it.
5-99) Modifications are to be used to greater expand knowledge and community.
100) Fan interaction would be at its highest.

I'm happy to do anything to grow the community!

[indoneko]

As for wanting the canon...I don't know any canon stories about the LSF mascot other than her name and that she's the mascot. I don't know how old she is, where she lives, what she does...it doesn't seem you want canon...you just want brand recognition.

Brand recognition is good to have (especially if we're building a fandom), but the fandom itself wouldn't exist if we don't have any canon in the first place (which act as a basic framework for any subsequent products).

Currently, as you noticed, we have no such guide for renpy's/lemma's characters & setting. I could make my own interpretation of Eileen (for example, as what UncleMugen did in his parody VN) regardless of Pytom's opinion about Eileen's original profile. But is it really the best way to do it? Not that I'm asking Pytom to handle this though, as he is already busy with renpy development and what not.

Arguing that games should be open source so an individual person can change the story to be how they want it to be (there is a character who isn't into you and you change it so that they love you forever, or whatever), isn't exactly the same as arguing that more games should be created from the beginning as a massive, collaborative work--which could very well be made by a huge collaborative group that doesn't want people outside that group modding their work.

Kinda agree with that... as an open source game isn't necessarily a massive collaborative work, depending on how big (or small) we want it to be. In case of renpy/lemma's fandom, Building the first game of the series will be quite hard and exhausting if we push all the necessary content there all at once. We could, however, divide the load by making some creators handling the world development, while the others handle the actual game making itself using partial chunk of the developed content (imagine the first game of Touhou series which only contain several characters, which then evolves into a big cast of characters in later games).

@NialGrenville : The Lemma Adventure?


About the modding vs editing, I don't think it would be a problem for fanworks; they can do anything they want with it, literally. That's the point of having an "open source" game, at least for my idea about renpy/lemma fandom. We can, however, encourage people to make "official" fanworks -which strictly follows the canon- to be integrated into the series (either as DLC, or a complete sequel). But even then, non-official fanworks can be so popular that we might want to include them too (especially if the original setting allowed multiverse concept).

[NialGrenville]

Yep, maybe I'm cheesy with the titles. I'm a writer not a title maker. Literately I've had my friends come up with the name, or I write a bunch of crap 1-20 and another row 1-20. Then I roll a 20 sided die I hope it comes out as healthy as I "see" it.

On to the modding situation that you brought up. This is exactly like I was talking about. Fan works are better placed within original games. Fan officials should also be encouraged if it is to the scale of editing the base story.

Then your last comment is summing up my last point. The fandom might create a whole new idea we never thought of as the creators! So you seem to grasp the concept that VN's are still games, and can still be treated as so.

Your post pretty much sums up everything I've said. In a much smaller simpler sense.

Love Lemma, best community ever!

I feel like we have a lot of thinkers in this website. Because both opinions are interesting on this matter. I like these debates.

[TheJerminator15]

Because VNs as said before are incredibly focused on story, it really does come down to a case by case basis. For example, Samu-kun and his Sunrider series has quite a bit of potential in terms of modding because of the strategic gameplay implemented alng with the story that doesn't necessarily affect the story. However, it would have to come down to the creators whether or not they would allow it, assuming the VN in question that is being modded is very traditional and just has choice based gameplay.

There is also potential for mods to simply add in gameplay to simple choice based VNs (say for example an RPG battle system for a fantasy VN) like NialGreenVille mentioned with the Katawa Shoujo running minigame.

Whether or not you would want to allow fans to mod and change the story is really up to you, I mean it's probably already incredibly easy to mod Ren'Py games anyway, just that nobody has done it mainly out of respect for the original vision (although not fully sure if the easiness is true, I'm a luddite when it comes to programming). As I've said before I myself am completely fine with it, even if the mods do anything from simply changing the UI to making side stories that have no bearing on the plot to completely rewriting my original story. Canon is incredibly important to me as well but I also think allowing fans a say in what they would like or the ability to put what they would prefer about my game into something tangible is a great idea. I already know the canon for the story and so will the fans, so non-canon fanfics and mods are completely fine by me, especially if it brings something fresh I'd never even considered.

[Zelan]

NialGrenville, I think that the major difference in our thinking comes from our perception of what VNs are - you consider them more game-like, while I consider them more book-like. I don't think either one of us can really prove ourselves right or wrong.

To sum up my opinion, I guess:

I can see that you're passionate about this subject, but at the same time you respect the creators of visual novels and their feelings, as shown by your rule #1.

1) The game would need to be listed as "open-source" in their thread.

If I ever get around to making my own VN, I would rather it not be modded in any way. The way I see it, it's my story at the end of the day, and I've told it exactly how I want it to be told. Fanworks are fantastic and I would be honored if someone even considered making a fangame, but I wouldn't want it to use the framework of my original VN.

In other words, I would rather that anything I create not be modded, and you probably won't find me modding anything myself. However, I'm not going to try to put a stop to modding altogether. As long as the modders are respectful and the creators are okay with it, there's no reason for me not to be okay with it.

And hey, if you ever do mod a VN, tell me about it. Maybe you'll change my mind. c: Thanks for the polite and interesting debate.

[NialGrenville]

Any time! Soon when my game is finished. It's gonna be open-source due to how its built. It'll be really easy to modify. So I guess I can start the "modding" spectrum of VN's essentially. While also technically settling the rules for modifications.

Has to be listed open source by the creator. By default it is closed.

The one and only rule

I hope you'll check it out and modify my game. I'd like to see your vignette/character/change within the game.

[trooper6]

NialGrenville, I think that the major difference in our thinking comes from our perception of what VNs are - you consider them more game-like, while I consider them more book-like. I don't think either one of us can really prove ourselves right or wrong.

...

If I ever get around to making my own VN, I would rather it not be modded in any way. The way I see it, it's my story at the end of the day, and I've told it exactly how I want it to be told. Fanworks are fantastic and I would be honored if someone even considered making a fangame, but I wouldn't want it to use the framework of my original VN.

I see VNs more as games than books, but yet I'm also not all that enthusiastic about people modding the games I create. I also don't think of the game as my story, but I think of the story as what is created when the player interfaces with what I've given them. I choose those options very deliberately. And one of the things I'm interested in exploring in my next couple of games it about causing discomfort with the player, causing some difficult choices, causing moral difficulties, and exploring agency or the lack thereof...or the consequences of player agency.

Allowing the players to mod the game allows them to bypass the whole point of the experience I want to create with the player.

Let me give some examples from Dragon Age 2. I loved Dragon Age 2. I loved the way in which you couldn't always get what you want in that game. Two specifics: Aveline. Aveline is amazing and she is great...and you know what? You can't date her. Your inability to date her isn't because they forgot to add that, you can't date her (or Varrick) because the game makers wanted to do something specific. They wanted a player to recognized that, no, you don't get to date anyone you want just because you want. Some people don't want to date you. There is a challenge to entitlement...and a sort of entitlement prevalent in some gamer circles...in that choice that was part of the point. Allowing those gamers who feel entitled to date whoever they want regardless of how the other person feels to mod the game to allow them date people who were not previously into them? That feels like such a terrible thing to me. It goes against the point...not the story, but the point.

Second example. In Dragon Age 2 someone is murdered and you can't stop it from happening (I won't be specific because of spoilers). This is also done deliberately...as it is deliberate that the player is a refugee for a whole year at the start of the game and never becomes the "chosen one." Dragon Age 2 is pushing back against wish fulfillment as part of the theme of the game. To allow players to mod the game to put all the wish fulfillment back in feels like a travesty. Now, granted, I think one of the reasons that Dragon Age 2 didn't sell as well is because it didn't feed into wish fulfillment in the way most RPGs do. But I thought it was really refreshing.

So, the games I want to make, I don't want people modding...because I don't want them bypassing the theme.

That said. I could imagine creating a game that was made specifically for modding. But that game would be all fan service and wish fulfillment all the time.
Also said. I do plan on releasing some of my code for some of my games. Not because I want to enable modders, but because I want to aid coders get better. I want to help the coding community...new coders, intermediate coders like myself...I want to give back to the community that has given so much to me. So having some games with open code? Sure! So they can mod the game? No. This is also because I have commissioned the artwork and I don't have the right to just let anyone do anything they want with it.

If they want to make fan works. What do I care? Though, to be honest, I don't think my games are the sorts of games that would generate the sort of fannish-ness that would cause people to want to make fan works.

[Zelan]

Dragon age examples and prevalence of theme

That's a much better way of putting it. I was trying to say something along those lines; although my planned VNs aren't necessarily centered around such heavy themes, most VNs tend to come back to choices and consequences. Modding gives the player the ability to take away or alter the consequences.

Those were good examples to back up your point. Although I've never played Dragon Age, I'm now very interested in doing so - it seems like it would be right up my alley.

[NialGrenville]

So I get your Dragon Age examples, but they were still made. Somebody clearly wanted it bad enough to code it. However, it required the permission of the game maker to release the creation kit.

It's all up to the creators to give the rights an resources to the mod-devs. They have no power, and can make little to no changes without given the proper tools. Bethesda again; they're a great example!

They did not disclose the creation kit for FO4 until the DLC was released, and as of recent, they still haven't. Last I've checked at least. When modifiers went to, well, modify. They had to deal with what the game gave them. When the kit comes out, I can't wait to see what happens. I hope it ends up even more beautiful and realistic, and with more immersion than skyrim was with modifications.

Since I don't play games anymore, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it. People out there still will.

So if Skyrim/Dragon Age/Fall Out 4/any other game with modifications didn't allow modifications. They wouldn't happen. That's not true for a few vagrants however. Some will modify because they can or want too. That's where this whole "List as open source" comes into play.

If the game was never listed OS then the modifications should never have happened. If they have, keep them to yourself you grubby corrupter! That's the whole idea and driving force behind the modifications in the first place. Giving power to the players.*

[NialGrenville]

Now that PaS is on the brink of release. I would like to revive this thread as to pose a question to all Lemma Soft.

My game is 100% free to edit, and it is even fine to remake it. Just like a full conversion modification.

So now the question peeks its head over the mountains of adventure.

Do you think a modifications thread is better than just having people placing it in the same game's thread?

If this is true, where do you think posting such a thread is appropriate?

Maybe I'm overthinking it, a single thread for the game and modifications may be okay.

[TheJerminator15]

Personally I'd announce that it could be modded in the same game thread. That thread already has an active audience engaging within it, so any questions have a much higher probability of being seen and answered if in that thread.

It could be something as simple as an additional comment on the thread saying that you can mod the game if you want.