"I would totally play your game if I had the time and money"

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Katta
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#31 Post by Katta »

Zelan, but don't you feel that your time calculations explain why the phrase in question sounds not exactly as a compliment? Because you do have time, you're just not interested enough to play this exact game instead of tons of others, which is ofc perfectly fine and up to you but why telling it to it's creator?

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#32 Post by truefaiterman »

Rossfellow wrote:Erm, not sure if its just me, but there's a bit of overreaction in this thread... Both ways.
firecat wrote:everyone stop we been doing this wrong, look at this video first before reading on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

so its not an economic problem more about Taleweaver trying to find answers to which we can not help.
I agree entirely on the first statement, and partially on the second one because of that video.

The "I'd play this if I could" phrase is just a standard answer. It's not exclusive in any way from this forum, and its meaning is as broad as the amount of people using it. Some people genuinely can't get the product, others are, indeed, just telling an "innocent lie" to not sound harsh. Others may just want to show some support, or to show they're interested on the game in the long run. Others just have a whole lot of small personal reasons that make them not feeling like buying that game in particular and just don't feel like telling anyone on a forum their whole life story and think that this simple phrase is a nice, short way to explain it.

There have been pretty good points regarding criticism by Trooper6 and LateWhiteRabbit, but in the end, this phrase is just a common group of words a lot of people use in order to not get too involved. It's lacking passion by itself, and going to the point of arguing this much over it makes no sense, and has no use.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#33 Post by Zelan »

Katta wrote:Zelan, but don't you feel that your time calculations explain why the phrase in question sounds not exactly as a compliment? Because you do have time, you're just not interested enough to play this exact game instead of tons of others, which is ofc perfectly fine and up to you but why telling it to it's creator?
That's a fair point. Thank you for bringing it up.

What I was trying to say when I say that I have that huge list is that I have to make a choice, and if I spend a lot of time agonizing over which game I'm going to play in my free time, I'm going to spend less time playing VNs and more time thinking about playing VNs.

Really, it's not so much that I'm less interested in one game, it's that I'm more interested in another. I know that this doesn't exactly make sense, but the point is that I like it in the first place; there are plenty of games that I don't even bother to play or comment on because they don't interest me at all. So, instead of comparing your game to the ones that I've put ahead of it in the queue, compare it to all of the games that never made it onto the queue in the first place.

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, though, you're right. When I post something like that, I am essentially telling the creator, "Your game is not important enough for me to play right this minute." If I cared as much as I'm trying to present myself as caring, I would probably find the time to fit these VNs into my life.

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#34 Post by Caveat Lector »

I pretty much agree with tfm on this--there is no point to be mined from this argument, no hidden golden nugget one can latch on to and go "A-HA! THIS PROVES MY HYPOTHESIS ALL ALONG!". Really, it ultimately boils down to individual reasons, some of which are very personal, many of which have been compounded into a universal reason in many different ways. This topic is the equivalent of ranting about the phrase "happy holidays", and not listening to people trying to explain that Christmas is not the only December holiday people celebrate, or that not everyone celebrates Christmas.

Oh, and also...if someone said to me "I can't afford your game, but I will promote it on twitter!", I wouldn't ask why, accuse them of spending their spare change on Starbucks, or accuse them of "feigning poverty" . I'd just thank them for the RT. Most indie devs can actually sympathize with the difficulties of making a living.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#35 Post by Rossfellow »

Caveat Lector wrote:I pretty much agree with tfm on this--there is no point to be mined from this argument, no hidden golden nugget one can latch on to and go "A-HA! THIS PROVES MY HYPOTHESIS ALL ALONG!". Really, it ultimately boils down to individual reasons, some of which are very personal, many of which have been compounded into a universal reason in many different ways. This topic is the equivalent of ranting about the phrase "happy holidays", and not listening to people trying to explain that Christmas is not the only December holiday people celebrate, or that not everyone celebrates Christmas.

Oh, and also...if someone said to me "I can't afford your game, but I will promote it on twitter!", I wouldn't ask why, accuse them of spending their spare change on Starbucks, or accuse them of "feigning poverty" . I'd just thank them for the RT. Most indie devs can actually sympathize with the difficulties of making a living.
That's a good way to look at it. I guess it is a bit different from the other example I gave. Still, phrasing!

Sure, "I would totally play your game if I had the time and money" is okay, but something like "This looks really nice! I think my friends will like this too" is a lot better. I can't/won't impose that, of course.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#36 Post by Kinjo »

First, I do think the original comment was a pretty rude thing to say, but I'm glad you apologized for it.

I think this thread itself is pretty unnecessary though, but since you're asking a legitimate question I'll give you my answer.

It's true that, with better budgeting, you can save money spent on food, etc. and spend it on games. But if you're really tight on money, what you'd rather do is save money spent on things you don't need to survive (i.e. games) and instead spend your money on food, rent, utilities, etc. It's a pretty bad assumption to say that anyone who can't afford a game is wasting their money, particularly at Starbucks (though that was probably just a bad joke). It's also not all just about one game -- if you go into the mindset of "well, it's just $5, I can buy it!" and you do that for 20 games, you've really just spent $100 on games that might amount to well over 100 hours of playtime. Even if you did buy those games, you might not have the time to play them. Maybe you've got work, or a busy school schedule, or whatever. Or maybe you'd just rather do other things for a while. Everybody comes from different situations, so maybe you might be really well-off financially, but others might struggle far more, and that's reality.

Sure, not buying the game doesn't support the developer financially, but at least offering words of encouragement shows you like it, and if you're able to play it in the near future, you will. It's a nice thing to hear, even if it doesn't totally work out in the end (maybe the person never gets enough money or time or just forgets about it completely) and I wouldn't fault anybody for saying it.
Zelan wrote:
Taleweaver wrote:An idea:

If you want something that would usually come cheap, and you really cannot afford to buy it, but you do have a little time, why not ask the creator whether they are willing to give you free access in exchange for, say, a 200-words-per-dollar-review on any of the sites where they are active? Or where they are selling it, in the case of Steam? In that case, you'd be essentially "working your debts" off, could play the game you so desperately want to play and help the creator at the same time.

TheJerminator15, firecat and everybody else currrently in the proverbial dire straits: Is that something you would consider?
It's a good idea in theory, but I think a problem could arise if I was less than satisfied with the game. Let's assume that I cut a deal like this with the creator of the game. I play the game, but I'm not as impressed with it as I thought I would be; in fact, I realize that I really didn't enjoy the game much at all. At this point, I can either lie and give the game a glowing review that I don't really believe in, or I can give it an honest review and risk the creator being angry about it and accusing me of swindling them out of a copy of their game.

That wouldn't matter if the creator is okay with a not-so-great review, but it would have to be made very clear between both of the parties involved that it would be an "honest review" (aka it might well say "this game is truly a piece of crap"), and the creator would have to be okay with this possibility.

Plus, it feels a little bit too much like begging for me personally. :/ I'm just not sure that I'd feel comfortable asking about it unless I had some history with the creator.
I instantly thought of this as well. I'm not a fan of "buying reviews" so to speak. It's pretty dishonest to offer a game for free in exchange for good reviews, and honestly I'd rather hear a compliment from someone who couldn't afford to play my game than a compliment that I bought and paid for myself. There's also just too much that could go wrong with the bartering idea, unless you have some pretty strict contracts there's no reason anybody would keep their word and you'd just be giving away your game for free.

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#37 Post by Taleweaver »

Zelan wrote:It's a good idea in theory, but I think a problem could arise if I was less than satisfied with the game. Let's assume that I cut a deal like this with the creator of the game. I play the game, but I'm not as impressed with it as I thought I would be; in fact, I realize that I really didn't enjoy the game much at all. At this point, I can either lie and give the game a glowing review that I don't really believe in, or I can give it an honest review and risk the creator being angry about it and accusing me of swindling them out of a copy of their game.

That wouldn't matter if the creator is okay with a not-so-great review, but it would have to be made very clear between both of the parties involved that it would be an "honest review" (aka it might well say "this game is truly a piece of crap"), and the creator would have to be okay with this possibility.
Actually, that's a risk every creator takes when he gives out review copies to the press. Yes, you get a review in return. No, you do not get the guarantee it will be a favorable review. So it's up to said creator to decide whether he thinks it's worth the risk or not. And personally, I'd rather give away a free copy of my creation to someone who has already told me he really loves the idea than to someone I don't know whether he will have a positive bias in the first place.
Katta wrote:Zelan, but don't you feel that your time calculations explain why the phrase in question sounds not exactly as a compliment? Because you do have time, you're just not interested enough to play this exact game instead of tons of others, which is ofc perfectly fine and up to you but why telling it to it's creator?
Word. Personally, I'm interested in why people don't want to play my games at least as much in why they love them, so I'm perfectly comfortable with finding out that a story idea I thought was the bee's knees doesn't really connect with someone, or has been done before and probably better, or is way out of the demographic I thought it would be. The "I would play it if" part often sounds like an excuse for not having to go into these details, and it really bothers me that people appear to say something nice while, in fact, they may have something relevant to me instead.
Caveat Lector wrote:Oh, and also...if someone said to me "I can't afford your game, but I will promote it on twitter!", I wouldn't ask why, accuse them of spending their spare change on Starbucks, or accuse them of "feigning poverty" . I'd just thank them for the RT. Most indie devs can actually sympathize with the difficulties of making a living.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#38 Post by Fuseblower »

So, basically, it all boils down to getting an honest critique.

Indeed, when I first started posting stuff I was somewhat disappointed to hardly get any responses (that's the whole point of posting WIPs). But I also saw that other people hardly got responses. I understand Taleweaver's dissapointment in this respect.

Furthermore, when I gave critiques myself then I didn't get an acknowledgment of the ones asking for critiques. Never heard from them again. And, again, I saw this happened to others who gave critiques as well. What's the point of asking people to take time to write a critique if you're not going to read it anyway? That hardly invites a repeat performance.

Now I see people getting all defensive about a mere tip, a tiny amount time and even politics instead of addressing the real issue.

Sure, nobody has any obligation to spend time or money to anything that's posted here. People don't even have the obligation to care about their own threads. To me, the whole money thing doesn't matter at all because my stuff is completely free. Just as well because from this thread I've gleaned that the VN community is penniless anyway :lol:

But if the LSF community isn't willing to give the tiniest amount of support then who is?

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#39 Post by TheJerminator15 »

After coming back to this forum today it does seem there's been a bit of an overreaction. Now Taleweaver's expanded on what they said the meaning behind is far more clear than before and I do agree with them a lot more than previously when I misunderstood what they meant. I do apologise for misinterpreting it in my first reply.

If it boils down to an honest critique then that is something I generally agree on, despite being guilty of it myself. Many times if a game does not interest me from it's premise, I won't really give it much thought afterwards and just click off. If a premise does interest me I'll speak up, but you also wish to know why people are not initially interested or interested in the game. It's definitely understandable why you are annoyed as to why someone would not be interested in a game and would use such a blanket and broad term as originally described instead of honestly critiquing it.

I'm going to also attempt to stick to this idea of honest critique from now on in the forums, I typically check this place once a day and a few minutes spent just giving my thoughts such things can only really help them with feedback after all.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#40 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Fuseblower wrote:So, basically, it all boils down to getting an honest critique.

....

But if the LSF community isn't willing to give the tiniest amount of support then who is?
It's funny - after years on Lemmasoft, it appears to me that a lot of the forum-goers think they are providing support by not critiquing WIP threads. Again, the discouragement issue. And as Taleweaver and yourself have pointed out, silence and platitudes kind of suck when you are looking for real feedback. After all, you can't fix something after the fact if someone said, "Oh, I'll definitely play this when it comes out!" in the WIP thread, but really wasn't enthused about the project - they just wanted to be nice and show support. Where as if they had said, "This looks nice, but I'm tired of X being used. X seems overdone at this point and doesn't excite me" something might have been done about that before release.

But again, the whole reason we started the Honest Critique buttons was that it became abundantly clear a lot of WIP thread authors did NOT want criticism and got offended by it. So that made people on Lemmasoft reluctant to give criticism for fear of offending someone. The Honest Critique buttons were a way to say, "Hey, it's okay to critique me! I won't get offended."

Reluctance to give criticism on a creative development forum is not good. Places like Polycount thrive because their members aren't afraid to tell someone they need to start a project over, because it is past the point of recovery - but they'll also tell them HOW to make sure it stays on the tracks the next time.

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#41 Post by trooper6 »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: But again, the whole reason we started the Honest Critique buttons was that it became abundantly clear a lot of WIP thread authors did NOT want criticism and got offended by it. So that made people on Lemmasoft reluctant to give criticism for fear of offending someone. The Honest Critique buttons were a way to say, "Hey, it's okay to critique me! I won't get offended."

Reluctance to give criticism on a creative development forum is not good. Places like Polycount thrive because their members aren't afraid to tell someone they need to start a project over, because it is past the point of recovery - but they'll also tell them HOW to make sure it stays on the tracks the next time.
Another problem is that are people here who say they want honest critique...but either they really don't or they are not actually able to handle it if that honest critique is not 100% positive. Unless the person has an Honest Critique button, I don't critique at all.

There are some people who are really young, there are people who are prone to depression and suffering from abysmally low self-esteem...there are some very fragile people here. This seems to be a place cheerleading not a place of critique.

I really appreciate the Honest Critique button and those are the people I am more likely to interact with.

One more thing...there are a lot of projects I'm not interested in and I don't say anything at all, Honest Critique button or no. Why? Because while I don't like what I'm seeing, it doesn't seem like I am the target audience. Since I'm not the target audience, I don't think my critique would be useful.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#42 Post by ThisIsNoName »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: It's funny - after years on Lemmasoft, it appears to me that a lot of the forum-goers think they are providing support by not critiquing WIP threads. Again, the discouragement issue. And as Taleweaver and yourself have pointed out, silence and platitudes kind of suck when you are looking for real feedback. After all, you can't fix something after the fact if someone said, "Oh, I'll definitely play this when it comes out!" in the WIP thread, but really wasn't enthused about the project - they just wanted to be nice and show support. Where as if they had said, "This looks nice, but I'm tired of X being used. X seems overdone at this point and doesn't excite me" something might have been done about that before release.
I think this is kind of a catch-22, though. The majority of VNs on Lemmasoft are, frankly, more closely related to ascended fan-games, rather than an independent story. The creators that do create games that are intended to stand on their own, instead relying on VN fans needing their next fix, generally don't post on Lemmasoft.

I don't mean to be blunt, but this argument just feels like the exact same platitudes it's meant to condemn. The simple fact is, if you honestly want harsh critique, there are plenty of other places to get it. JP3 on VNs Now is pretty notorious for giving extremely harsh criticism. Or, hell, just go to a mainstream gaming forum and put some blood in the water. It won't take long for people to tear into your story like hungry piranhas.

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever played a EVN that I really considered "good", much less great. But I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. Just look at how many movies are released each year that get mediocre reviews, and those are productions involving hundreds of people and millions of dollars. Most VNs on lemmasoft involve 1-5 people, and a minimal budget.
And, of course, most of the VNs released on lemmasoft are meant more for entertainment than to be considered a work of art. If you want your own work to be viewed and judged as a work of art, it's ultimately your own responsibility to treat it that way. Don't just use tropes that others use because they're familiar or convenient. Build your story from the ground up with a consistent vision in mind. Don't just think of art in terms of "anime" or "western", but consciously design them to express the themes of the story.


On another note, one thing I think would be cool to see from the VN community is more longform reviews that really get into the nitty gritty of storytelling and mechanics. Even if it's a bad game, there can still be plenty to learn.

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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#43 Post by trooper6 »

ThisIsNoName wrote: The simple fact is, if you honestly want harsh critique, there are plenty of other places to get it. JP3 on VNs Now is pretty notorious for giving extremely harsh criticism. Or, hell, just go to a mainstream gaming forum and put some blood in the water. It won't take long for people to tear into your story like hungry piranhas.
JP3 only reviews finished VNs...so won't be useful for people who want critique on works in progress. JP3 also has a particular point of view which means that certain games will never even be reviewed by him. So JP3 is not the solution to this problem. Also Honest Critique is not the same as Harsh Critique and it is telling that you conflate the two.
ThisIsNoName wrote: I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever played a EVN that I really considered "good", much less great

....And, of course, most of the VNs released on lemmasoft are meant more for entertainment than to be considered a work of art.
So, the Renpy games I play are 95% really good and not a small percentage of those are great. Also, the games I play are certainly art. And they are definitely not ascended fan games. But then I am choosy about what I pick up. Also...Honest Critiquing is not the same as ripping apart something gleefully like a pack of piranhas. Honest Critique is not the same as an attack or harsh critique. It is simply an honest critique...which might be positive. But it has a level of thoughtfulness and detail and real desire to help make something better.

"Looks Great!" is not Honest Critique.
"You are the worst ever!" is also not Honest Critique.

People come here for different reasons. Not all of them are for critique, honest or otherwise.
Some people come here for motivation and cheerleading...they don't want critique, they want people to tell them their project is worthy so they will be motivated to continue. These people get demoralized if they only get 3 positive comments rather than a regular stream of positive reinforcement. Critique is really not what they want.
On the other end, some people come here to advertise their finished game and generate sales, they also don't want critique--one because the game is done and they feel it is past the point of critique and two because critique might hamper their goal...which is to get people to download/buy the game.

Not everyone is even here for critique...and as a critic you have to navigate that...which is made more difficult when people sometimes they say they want one thing, but what they really want is something else. Which is probably why a bunch of people don't.
ThisIsNoName wrote: On another note, one thing I think would be cool to see from the VN community is more longform reviews that really get into the nitty gritty of storytelling and mechanics. Even if it's a bad game, there can still be plenty to learn.
And then a longform review is also not the same thing as an Honest Critique. A critique is aimed at the creator to help them improve a project in progress. A review is aimed at the potential consumer so they can figure out if they want to play it. Then there is an analysis (or criticism in the academic sense), which isn't about improving a project or advising potential consumers...but trying to work out something more profound about a work of art. I have done a few longform reviews that start moving into analysis (or Criticism)...but again...only when the creator has the Honest Critique button...and it is never clear if this is the place for that sort of work...and it is work. Doing a longform thoughtful piece of analysis or critique or review takes a lot of time and it is a lot of work.

It doesn't feel good to do that work to find out that the creator really only wanted you to say, "Looks great! Keep going!"
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#44 Post by NialGrenville »

It pleases me to see the thread back on point. Tanking out like it did seemed unfair to TaleWeaver; it seemed more of a thread radiating the "come fite me" aura. Just from inference of posts others made. Yet, better reasoned people took your word for its wealth. Besides addressing that.

This thread had me, and I assume more, guessing at the intent of "If only..." statements. Whether or not we like it, human nature is to be conceited. Humility is a virtue after all! So, if "If only..." statements piggy back the mentality of "I said this to feel like I am giving the creator pity. Instead of telling him 'I am just not interested.'" Then it is not constructive, and very arrogant. (Also including evasive!) However, there are some who say it genuinely.

Both are important to acknowledge in the community. Both are fruitful, and unproductive. (That is more mentality towards said individuals.)

Short, sweet, and to the point. I enjoyed this refreshing thought stimulus in the communities mentality.
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Re: "I would totally play your game if I had the time and mo

#45 Post by ThisIsNoName »

Sorry, I just got off a rough day of work and made my post more aggressive than I meant it to be. I should also point out that my post was replying to LateWhiteRabbit, and I only glanced at your post before hitting submit.
trooper6 wrote:So, the Renpy games I play are 95% really good and not a small percentage of those are great. Also, the games I play are certainly art. And they are definitely not ascended fan games. But then I am choosy about what I pick up.
Firstly, I should have mentioned that I'm very solidly in the "not good" category, as are most of the stories I enjoy. Secondly, I'm curious how many of those games did you find through lemmasoft. The point I was trying to make (rather clumsily) is that the majority of creators on lemmasoft (including several of the people complaining about not getting critiques) aren't necessarily here to make games that are "Good". They're trying to emulate the types of visual novels that got them into development. Being "Good" might be an end goal, but there are plenty of people who know that the games they're releasing aren't the greatest.

And, again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But just saying "I'll play this when it comes out" can help give them the motivation to finish the game, while giving them a list of "here's all the things you did wrong, and if you want to fix it, you'll have to scrap the entire project" is an easy way to get people to quit.

In other words, I'd rather have a game that isn't good or great, than a perfect game that doesn't exist.
trooper6 wrote: Also Honest Critique is not the same as Harsh Critique and it is telling that you conflate the two.
I wasn't talking about honest critique. I was talking about harsh critique. You might have to wade through a lot of bad/unhelpful comments, but if you're truly interested in getting critique, harsh is better than nothing. My point was that people were complaining that critiques weren't falling into their lap on a site where, at least right now, very few people offer critique, but they haven't made any effort to seek out any critique, honest or otherwise.
trooper6 wrote: "Looks Great!" is not Honest Critique.
"You are the worst ever!" is also not Honest Critique.
But "your sprites do a good job conveying visual information" is honest critique. When someone says in their opening post that they know their anatomy isn't great, it's frustrating to see the only critique be about their anatomy.
trooper6 wrote: People come here for different reasons. Not all of them are for critique, honest or otherwise.
Some people come here for motivation and cheerleading...they don't want critique, they want people to tell them their project is worthy so they will be motivated to continue. These people get demoralized if they only get 3 positive comments rather than a regular stream of positive reinforcement. Critique is really not what they want.
On the other end, some people come here to advertise their finished game and generate sales, they also don't want critique--one because the game is done and they feel it is past the point of critique and two because critique might hamper their goal...which is to get people to download/buy the game.
We're saying the same thing. But there's a big difference between between only getting 3 positive comments, and having people tell you what you did wrong/what you should do better, without mentioning whether they enjoyed the story or not. It's like going to the opening of someone's gallery, pulling them around and pointing out all the mistakes, then leaving without saying anything else. It just feels like "why are you even here if you don't enjoy it?"
trooper6 wrote:
ThisIsNoName wrote: On another note, one thing I think would be cool to see from the VN community is more longform reviews that really get into the nitty gritty of storytelling and mechanics. Even if it's a bad game, there can still be plenty to learn.
And then a longform review is also not the same thing as an Honest Critique. A critique is aimed at the creator to help them improve a project in progress. A review is aimed at the potential consumer so they can figure out if they want to play it.
Again, I wasn't talking about Honest Critique. I suppose I should have clarified I meant something like Digibro's Evangelion Analysis(or academic criticism, like you mentioned). Basically, take a VN that's been out for a while (moonlight walks is a good example) and take a look at not just what was good or bad, but also the themes and techniques they use to convey the story.
trooper6 wrote:..and it is work. Doing a longform thoughtful piece of analysis or critique or review takes a lot of time and it is a lot of work.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't a lot of work, or that you should be the one to do it.

I agree that it's frustrating trying to figure out whether someone actually wants "Honest Critique" when they have the button. But I don't think banning encouragement for everyone is the answer.

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