2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

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JQuartz
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#46 Post by JQuartz » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:53 pm

sake-bento wrote:Well, calling it a contest rather than awards actually seems like a good idea. As in, creators will willingly enter their works into the annual contest. That way, anyone who does enter is going in knowing full well that there's a chance of not being a "winner." And anyone who just doesn't want to deal with it doesn't have to.
Yeah, I think it's better to be a contest as well. There are people in this board who had joined competitions before, lost and knows that he must improve himself. But there are also people that when loses a competition becomes discouraged and decides to quit what they were competing for (like yours truly...). So I think it's better if a maker can choose whether to join or not since he should know how losing or winning would affect him. If losing would have negative effects on the player then it would be better not join the competition. If losing is somewhat beneficial to the person, then he should join. It's important to give the power to chose whether to join the competition or not to the makers and not to the nominating audience. That way both the people who wants the competition and people who don't want the competition can be satisfied.
mikey wrote: There is a difference between individual judgment and judgment by the community (see above).
I been insulted almost all my life and the only difference I felt between a community insulting me and an individual insulting me is just the magnitude of destruction. It doesn't mean a community's judgment/opinion is much more correct than an individual's judgment. So I don't see any real difference between an individual's judgment and a community's judgment.
mikey wrote:Plus, even if judging and comparing is the default mode, is it really so out of place to try to get people to let this go and (at least) try to appreciate the game for what it is, without thinking of top lists?
It's not out of place but it's not something that can be done. People will compare and judge but admitting or saying it aloud is another matter. You can stop their speech but not their thoughts.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#47 Post by Wintermoon » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:43 pm

I think the Lemmys are a nice way to point people (both newcomers and regulars) toward some of the better English-language visual novels. As such, the Lemmys serve a real need. The same need could also be served by one or more independent review sites, but no such sites exist.

I don't think the Lemmys should be considered competitive at all. Why feel bad about "losing", when you never set out the please the community in the first place? By the same token, why feel good about "winning"? If the community's taste coincides with your own, that's just a mildly interesting curiosity, not a reason to feel proud.

The Lemmys should be for the benefit of the audience (who want to find quality games that match their tastes), not for the benefit of the game creators (who already know about the quality of their own creations and their own tastes).

Turning the Lemmys into a contest is a horrible idea. It would mean that the Lemmys no longer serve their real, useful purpose, because not all games would enter. Worse, it would turn the Lemmys into a competition, where entrants are expected to try to win.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#48 Post by JQuartz » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:03 am

Wintermoon wrote:Why feel bad about "losing", when you never set out the please the community in the first place?
Yes, but losing never feels good.
Wintermoon wrote:By the same token, why feel good about "winning"? If the community's taste coincides with your own, that's just a mildly interesting curiosity, not a reason to feel proud.
Having the community's taste coincides with your own will give you an advantage but it won't guarantee that you will win. You also must have good writings, art and music. So winning also means your work is good. That is a ego booster.
Wintermoon wrote:Turning the Lemmys into a contest is a horrible idea. It would mean that the Lemmys no longer serve their real, useful purpose, because not all games would enter.
It's better if all the people who joined are willing participants instead of being forced to join. The feelings of the audience is important but the feeling of the maker is equally important as well.
Wintermoon wrote:Worse, it would turn the Lemmys into a competition, where entrants are expected to try to win.
And make better games in order to win as well. The overall effect would still be an improvement in the quality of games made which isn't a bad effect at all.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#49 Post by dreamer » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:13 am

So basically, what you're all trying to say in a roundabout manner is that those who don't like it should GTFO, amirite?

Fine! Have it your way commercial-fags

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#50 Post by Blue Lemma » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:22 am

My head is swarming with thoughts after reading all the posts since I dropped in last, so I'll just do a random brain-dump :shock:

I'm really surprised this is so controversial. I do see the arguments people are presenting, but I'm just surprised.

I think there is a point of view that hasn't been discussed much, and that is of the newcomer to this whole OELVN thing. That was the main reason I started the awards. We've all been on the inside, if you will, for a while now, but what about someone who is curious and new?

Let's say I'm new and curious about the original VN thing. I get pointed to/stumble upon the Ren'Ai Archives. What do I see? A HUGE list of games, and no real way to tell which ones are any good. In fact, I'm sure some of them suck. I don't want to waste my time playing a crappy game, and I want to see a decent representation of the genre. Honestly, with nothing much to really go on, I'll probably pick the game with the best art.

From the newbie example, I think not having any distinction between games at all can hurt all of the games. Newcomers will have their first experiences of the community's production determined through superficial criteria, leaving good games with less-polished art unplayed, and many people might be turned off altogether if they happen to pick a bad game. This would prevent them from trying any others in the future.

I know I just heard people (esp. mikey) cringe when I used the term "bad game" or "suck", but the reality is that in most people's eyes, some of the games are pretty bad and suck. Within the community, we do not condone panning and insulting them. Rather, we give constructive criticism and encouragement. This is something I really like about this community :) However, many more people who are potential future members of the community, or are just random newbies, are not at that place yet. They want to know what a good game to play is.

We would be kidding ourselves to claim that all games are equal (I know this isn't quite what has been said earlier, but there's sort of that tone). It's kind of like saying people are equal: Yes, everyone has innate worth as a human, just as all completed VNs are a significant accomplishment. However, would we say Saddam Hussein and Mother Teresa are equal? Certainly not. I'm proud of Tales of Lemma, but I would freely admit that Ori, Ochi, Onoe and Songs of Araiah are better. Yes, they each have their strong points and weak points, and some might like ToL over O3 or O3 over SoA, etc etc, but in general, I'm guessing that's how most people would feel. And we learn how most people feel through the voting. We don't learn anything like "Crappy Game X sucks" or "everyone hates X", though. (And I would, of course, hate to see that kind of dialogue.)

It's inevitable that as the community grows and interest in these games grows, people will make comparisons. By conducting an award in a positive spirit, it can preempt or provide a counterbalance to someone who might decide to make a review site with "game X gets 1/5 stars" and "game Y gets 4/5 stars".

The opt-in contest idea is intriguing.

I think it's easy to get swept up in the Lemmy thing thinking it will change the whole community, but remember that in a week or so it will probably fade away until it's nomination time in 2010 ^_^; So I don't think it will have a big negative competitive effect.

Also, I'm not married to the idea of the awards. It's not like I get anything out of it besides the fuzzy feeling, and I lose a bunch of time. If a lot of people think it's a bad idea, I'm open to dropping it.

This thread has gotten quite interesting :)

(Please keep this civil, everyone.)
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#51 Post by JQuartz » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:49 am

dreamer wrote:So basically, what you're all trying to say in a roundabout manner is that those who don't like it should GTFO, amirite?
Not really. It's more like shouldn't get on instead of get off. An analogy would be everyone is riding a comfortable ship and then another ship comes along. The captain of the other ship then says those looking for a challenge should get on his ship. And so people who wanted a challenge gets on the other ship while the other who doesn't like the ship remains on the first ship. So the first ship is for everyone which is like this forum while the other ship is for those who wanted to join the contest which could be just a thread in this forum.
Blue Lemma wrote:Rather, we give constructive criticism and encouragement. This is something I really like about this community
I like it as well. Other than that, the people here tend to put forth their arguments quite intelligently not like the other forums I visit that after a few posts, comes the post with only the f-word.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#52 Post by Wintermoon » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:04 am

JQuartz wrote:Yes, but losing never feels good.
Not getting an award is not the same as losing.
JQuartz wrote:Having the community's taste coincides with your own will give you an advantage but it won't guarantee that you will win. You also must have good writings, art and music. So winning also means your work is good. That is a ego booster.
I already know if my works are good, what I like about them, what I dislike about them, and above all if I accomplished what I set out to do. I don't need an award to tell me if I succeeded.
Blue Lemma wrote:I think there is a point of view that hasn't been discussed much, and that is of the newcomer to this whole OELVN thing. That was the main reason I started the awards. We've all been on the inside, if you will, for a while now, but what about someone who is curious and new?
That was my point of view from the beginning, although I also feel that regulars can use the awards to catch up on notable visual novels they missed. I know I would not have downloaded Tying Threads if it wasn't nominated.
Blue Lemma wrote:I know I just heard people (esp. mikey) cringe when I used the term "bad game" or "suck", but the reality is that in most people's eyes, some of the games are pretty bad and suck.
There's a huge difference between saying that something sucks and picking out the visual novels with the greatest mainstream appeal (and I include production values under mainstream appeal).

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#53 Post by PyTom » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:15 am

In general, I think excellence is something to be encouraged. So I'm for trying to spotlight games that we consider to be the best, in the hope that people will strive to make their games better. In the words of Stan Lee, "Excelsior!"

That being said, I do think that we want to make a few changes for the 2009 Lemmys:

1) The category list should be arrived at more openly, and made known well in advance. (Preferably, in the next few weeks.) I think that the lack of visual and music awards was an oversight, and one that we should fix this year.

I'd break the categories down like this:

- Best Dramatic Game
- Best Comedy Game
- Optional: Best Game In Another Genre*

- Technical Achievement
- Artistic Achievement
- Musical Achievement

- The Gordon R. Lemma Memorial Award for Excellence in Fanservice and the Ecchi Arts

* I'm strongly considering running a contest in August for the best non-fiction/educational VN, so those might qualify here as well.

2) Balloting should be secret, and
3) Only the winner of each category should be announced.

The idea here is that while we want to recognize the winner (except in the case of ties), we don't want to reveal much else about the voting. I think it's a bad idea to tell us all who came in second (and third, and last, etc.)

4) One person, one vote.

Let's keep voting simple. I'm almost willing to say that we shouldn't have a nomination process, except perhaps one in which people point out eligible games.

5) Make a schedule, and stick to it.

We should create a schedule towards the end of this year, and try not to deviate from it. If such a deviation becomes necessary, please do the forum the courtesy of saying what happened.

I think with slightly improved rules, the Lemmys can become a positive forum institution.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#54 Post by Vatina » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:44 am

No, no one should get out :(

I agree that maybe some people are dreading the worst from this. It's just a fun end-of-the-year event. You make games like you always do, and if people really like it, then they get another chance at showing their appreciation. You don't have to care about this. The Lemmies are not the purpose of this community, it's just a part of it.

And I also like how it makes the "scene" easier to approach. I already feel pretty lost at sea when I feel like playing a new oelvn. My choice is to pick whatever new game has popped up in the forum, or make a completely random pick in the archives, since I don't know what to aim for. In the end I often do nothing at all.
And I don't I have seen anyone complain about PyTom's featured games on his site?

There is the fear that in the end people coming here will only care about the winners, but I don't think that's the case. Newcomers will play a winner - and if they liked it, they will want to try more. They will look for similar things, new things, and if not, they probably wouldn't give us a chance in the first place.

I'm going to continue making my game the way I want to. If I win, awesome! If not, then I'll still just be happy if someone comments and likes my game. The Lemmies are not the ultimate purpose of my game, and they won't be in the future. But they are a fun event that I look forward to nonetheless.

Besides, we don't win anything except a badge.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#55 Post by Samu-kun » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:48 am

I'll reflect most of Tom's suggestions, except maybe the music award. Since nearly all doujin visual novels use royalty free music, I doubt there'll be enough competitors in this field for a real contest, unless we're judging on how much the music selection fits the story. But that seems like such a less prestigious award than say, for overall best art direction.

And me being me, I think we should have a bonus "The Special Tsukasa Seal of Distinction for the Most Moe Character of 09," awarded to the cutest character in a visual novel. (Not necessarily the actual visual novel itself)

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#56 Post by mugenjohncel » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:56 am

- CONTENT NO LONGER RELEVANT -
Last edited by mugenjohncel on Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#57 Post by Hime » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:18 am

Wintermoon wrote: Turning the Lemmys into a contest is a horrible idea. It would mean that the Lemmys no longer serve their real, useful purpose, because not all games would enter. Worse, it would turn the Lemmys into a competition, where entrants are expected to try to win.
So what if someone is offended by the idea of getting his or her game publically and systematically compared to those of others? Does that mean that those who think like that would well, have to... Well, to quote what has been said already:
dreamer wrote:So basically, what you're all trying to say in a roundabout manner is that those who don't like it should GTFO, amirite?
People must have the right not to participate. :|
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#58 Post by ficedula » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:28 am

Hime wrote: People must have the right not to participate. :|
Not sure I see that. People must have the right to not have their game compared to other games?

Once you release a game to the public, you can't control what people say or feel about it. Much as you might like to pull a Twisp and Catsby it's just not possible to dictate to people how they should play it and what comments they're allowed to make. You don't have to pay attention to them, but short of requiring a signed NDA before anybody can obtain a copy, you can't stop people viewing your creation in a manner of their choice.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#59 Post by Hime » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:40 am

ficedula wrote: Not sure I see that. People must have the right to not have their game compared to other games?
Here comes the difference that mikey talked about before: it's no wonder if inviduals judge, but in Lemmy's, the community is publicly and organisedly judging and comparing. That is something we should have a right to avoid, since holding the Lemmy's is a conscious choice, not a natural reaction like it might be to some to compare games as an individual.

Besides, if there is no chance to leave one's games out, that might work as a great non-motivator to some. As you can see, there are people who care about it, so how much of a loss would it be to not include a few games a year? I'd say it's a lot smaller than the loss of these people not releasing their games, or having to put huge "please do not vote this game for Lemmy's because I don't want to be involved" banners in it. :|
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#60 Post by LVUER » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:27 am

mugenjohncel wrote:
Samu-kun wrote:I think we should have a bonus "The Special Tsukasa Seal of Distinction for the Most Moe Character of 09," awarded to the cutest character in a visual novel.
I have to disagree with this one. What may be MOE/CUTE to one person may not be MOE/CUTE to another and MOE itself is subject to different interpretations... in my case, I define MOE as "this Warm FUZZY Comforting feeling" I always get when I saw a thing/person/situation... In my case, I usually get this FUZZY feeling whenever I look at Guro and Cute Girls in cruel situations... I feel this particular category will be biased against the likes of me.
Is MOE the same as cute? Since cute already have its standard definition (just search it in dictionary) while MOE is indeed still in rather "gray" area. So if it's an award for most cute character, I think it's not a problem.
Samu-kun wrote:I'll reflect most of Tom's suggestions, except maybe the music award. Since nearly all doujin visual novels use royalty free music, I doubt there'll be enough competitors in this field for a real contest, unless we're judging on how much the music selection fits the story. But that seems like such a less prestigious award than say, for overall best art direction.

And me being me, I think we should have a bonus "The Special Tsukasa Seal of Distinction for the Most Moe Character of 09," awarded to the cutest character in a visual novel. (Not necessarily the actual visual novel itself)
I think music award is not a bad idea. Since most doujin VN use free-music, this award will motivate people creating original music. Only one track is fine (one original and 10 free music in one game is quite common). Although if in one year there is only one game has original music means that that game will definitely win the music award ^_^
Hime wrote:
ficedula wrote: Not sure I see that. People must have the right to not have their game compared to other games?
Here comes the difference that mikey talked about before: it's no wonder if inviduals judge, but in Lemmy's, the community is publicly and organisedly judging and comparing. That is something we should have a right to avoid, since holding the Lemmy's is a conscious choice, not a natural reaction like it might be to some to compare games as an individual.

Besides, if there is no chance to leave one's games out, that might work as a great non-motivator to some. As you can see, there are people who care about it, so how much of a loss would it be to not include a few games a year? I'd say it's a lot smaller than the loss of these people not releasing their games, or having to put huge "please do not vote this game for Lemmy's because I don't want to be involved" banners in it. :|
I agree with that, people should have chance to not participate (although if it is kept in secret, no body will know which game "lose" except the winning game. We can force them to participate (like all LSF user game or all game submitted in Renaigame must be submitted for the award). But I believe no one want to force something to anyone in this forum.

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