2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

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monele
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#16 Post by monele » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:58 pm

I'd probably avoid "genre" categories and go, as suggested, for things like Writing, Art (or Visuals to include visual effects, animations and the overall assemblage of visual elements), Sound (including music of course). Fan Service is not really genre specific, so it could work... and Best Overall could also still work. I'd still like to see Innovation, but not limited to technicalities. Anything new and bold of the "oh, never thought of that before, cool!" variety should be there (I put The Fucking Question in this category for this year because it did something bold for example).

I still favor the idea of a popular vote, possibly complemented by a Judges' Choice for each category. But if I *had* to choose, I'd probably pick popular vote as it just feels fair. And anyone could still give their personal opinion, with detailed reasons if they feel a particular game has been left off by the popular vote. (or said differently, I'd hate for a very small group of people to have the say on what deserves attention)

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#17 Post by mikey » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:33 pm

I have a bit of a challenging thought - it's all about improving Lemmys 2009, but is it really a good way of thinking about all this? Shouldn't we take a step back and try to first establish what the Lemmys are for in the first place?
Lemmys wrote:Their purpose is to recognize games that stand out above the rest, giving creators a pat on the back, and people new to the English doujin visual novel world some leads on which games represent the best of the community.
If this is the goal, are there not other or more efficient ways of making those goals happen? Specifically, whether it has to be an award with a vote by the forum/community members that achieves this.

I have to wonder whether especially in an area (free VNs to share with others) the primary focus of the community shouldn't simply be to allow people to express themselves with their VN, help in creation and cooperative (not competitive) motivation, and should this be the case, whether in turn bringing ranking and judging into all this is beneficial.

This is quite a fundamental question, and I'll just say I don't think Lemmys should exist in the first place (since there was no chance to publicly discuss this before, the Lemmys were just announced and in progress, so questioning that would have been counterproductive at that point) - so if it's possible, at least not throw away the idea entirely that they may be discontinued, and talk about either alternative ways of achieving the goals (though we should also see whether the community needs them), or redefine the goals entirely.

I know it was all meant well, but it looks just a bit too much like "hey let's have LSF oscars because it's cool and competition always helps" or even worse "let's have a competition, because others say we aren't competitive enough and we don't push envelopes", without too much thought about consequences, problems and controversies this may bring. And I also think it makes no sense to try to improve a concept if (it's decided) that concept isn't fitting in the first place.

So, what should the Lemmys achieve? How, if they work, should they manifest in the games released by members of the forums? Or other people's (since any game can be nominated, not just "LSF" games, if there is such a thing)? Is the quoted goal sufficiently clear, is it a good goal to have?

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#18 Post by musical74 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:18 pm

I looked at all the replies and I agree with most of them :)

IF you are going to have a genre, you should have all of the genres, that way you don't get a *but....X was such a great game! Just because it was in (mystery, for example) it got snubbed!* Granted, that might be hard to do, but that way you avoid the mess of *why did you just pick THESE genres and not THESE?*

I think there should be a nomination for Writing, Music, Innovation (which ya had!), Art, and Best Game Overall...that way you honor each style (artists, musicians, writers)

However, overall, I think it went well (if a little disorganized)
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#19 Post by LVUER » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:37 pm

Why don't we make it like Oscar, with best writer, best original music, etc, etc?

The judge will be votes from LSF registered user (and I prefer that only "veteran" / old-time members that are able to vote, to avoid some people purposely register lots of account to votes). And the nominated games must be renai VN that made with RenPy.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#20 Post by PyTom » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:02 am

LVUER wrote: And the nominated games must be renai VN that made with RenPy.
I disagree with this limitation. While I think Ren'Py (especially the Ren'Py of six months from now) is a great engine, I believe we shouldn't try to force the creator's hand. Be they made with Blade, Fire, KiriKiri/KAG, Novelty, ONScripter, Ren'Py, or Sylph, may the best game win.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#21 Post by usul » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:32 am

I think it's great to hear that PyTom wants these awards to be open to games created with other engines, I still have a bias for Ren'py seeing as it allows for publishing its games on multiple platforms. As a Linux only user, I'm often limited in the games I can play on my computer and this engine is fantastic for its wide range of compatibility.

I wouldn't want to shut out a game because of it being built with another engine, I probably couldn't play it if it doesn't run on my platform.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#22 Post by Blue Lemma » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:52 am

Wow, lots of good suggestions and discussion :mrgreen:

I'm liking the expert nominations and equal general voting idea. The categories seem to be the biggest area of controversy, and there are all sorts of good arguments to be made for the different types. I think it might be helpful to the discussion to have more examples in this area: If you were in charge of categories for the 2009 awards, what would you have them be? (As in the full list)

As for mikey's point about stepping back, I think the awards are good in that they give recognition and help draw more attention to the best games (as determined by the voting community). However, I also learned that there is the added bonus of motivating people to try games they otherwise wouldn't. For instance, chrono said he tried a game since it was nominated (forgot which one >_<) and I tried one I wasn't going to and ended up liking it :) The more discussion there is of games and their merits, as came out of the Lemmy discussion, the better in my book 8) The awards aren't about putting games and people down, but rather giving credit to those that stand out the most. If we had categories like "Worst VN of the Year", "Most Laughable Art", or "Least Inspired Writing" award it would obviously be a problem, but the spirit is positive.

More discussion and feedback please! :D
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#23 Post by Adorya » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:33 am

Samu-kun wrote:Actually, I think not allowing copyrighted material goes against the spirit of doujin, since 99% of all doujin works all violate copyright laws anyways.
Nitpicking a bit but please don't say that. It's better to say "game created with copyright material without giving credit and claiming on its own".
C75 was 45% made of touhou materials and they had ZUN agreement so don't say 99% is thievery

And again doujin = indie = non mainstream distribution so even your work is doujin until it make to Bigfish or Steam.

About the 2k9LA, I didn't vote because of works, lack of a poll voting system and shame because I was beginning to review the games nominated but didn't have time to finish & post my complete review like others in the other thread. The good thing is that I gained a bit more motivation to finish my own work and hope to make it for next lemmings...lemmies :mrgreen:

One thing that could be possible is to make a subforum available only for those who subscribed 6 month ago and make that poll in there (or voting post only available to them).

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#24 Post by sciencewarrior » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:22 am

musical74 wrote:IF you are going to have a genre, you should have all of the genres, that way you don't get a *but....X was such a great game! Just because it was in (mystery, for example) it got snubbed!* Granted, that might be hard to do, but that way you avoid the mess of *why did you just pick THESE genres and not THESE?*

I think there should be a nomination for Writing, Music, Innovation (which ya had!), Art, and Best Game Overall...that way you honor each style (artists, musicians, writers)
I agree with this. Genre prizes are usually created to give "non-serious" works their own ghetto. They simply don't make sense here, specially when you consider how few VNs fit neatly into a single genre. I think the only distinction that may make sense is separating linear and non-linear novels.

Also, copyright-infringing works, no matter how great, just can't be part of the Lemmies, because then the site's staff would run the unlikely but real risk of being sued for "promoting" illegal material. What works for doujin-friendly Japan doesn't necessarily work for the copyright-conscious Western world.

(sorry I wasn't around to vote; I hit a rough patch these last 4 or 5 months)
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#25 Post by JQuartz » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:57 am

musical74 wrote:IF you are going to have a genre, you should have all of the genres, that way you don't get a *but....X was such a great game! Just because it was in (mystery, for example) it got snubbed!* Granted, that might be hard to do, but that way you avoid the mess of *why did you just pick THESE genres and not THESE?*
Another way could be making an award only if the genre has a lot of games (say 100 games of mystery genre was made in 2009) while all the other games will be in another genre category. If there isn't enough games in any genres then just have the all encompassing genre (so all games competes for the only award which makes it more prestigious). I mean if there's only one game of the genre romance made then having an award for the genre romance is kind of silly...
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#26 Post by Jake » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:08 am

JQuartz wrote:Another way could be making an award only if the genre has a lot of games (say 100 games of mystery genre was made in 2009) while all the other games will be in another genre category.
So then, all you have to do to win a Lemmy is pick an obscure sub-genre nobody's written a VN in for 2009, write a single decent VN in that genre then release 20 or so stub-VNs with only just enough content and variation to be distinguishable from each other, then you've created the Lemmy for your obscure sub-genre and also automatically won it... ;-)


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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#27 Post by JQuartz » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:21 am

Jake wrote:So then, all you have to do to win a Lemmy is pick an obscure sub-genre nobody's written a VN in for 2009, write a single decent VN in that genre then release 20 or so stub-VNs with only just enough content and variation to be distinguishable from each other, then you've created the Lemmy for your obscure sub-genre and also automatically won it...
Well, since there is no cash prize involved, if that person really would do this just to get the award, it wouldn't worth anything. The only thing that person can get from the award is the satisfaction that his work is better than everyone else's. If all the other work is his then he would get no satisfaction at all. Furthermore don't forget that the voters might just cast blank votes if all the games he made (including the main one) are lousy. If his main one isn't lousy, then he probably deserve the award anyway.

Anyway, maybe the number of good games of a genre must reach a certain amount before the genre is categorized as a different category. This would stop the a person making tons of stub-VN since those VN won't be taken into account.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#28 Post by Jake » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:59 am

JQuartz wrote: Anyway, maybe the number of good games of a genre must reach a certain amount before the genre is categorized as a different category. This would stop the a person making tons of stub-VN since those VN won't be taken into account.
OK. Seriously, that was a joke. But for what it's worth, good luck on finding a metric to reliably, automatically and objectively determine a 'good' game from a 'not good' game.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#29 Post by lordcloudx » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:00 pm

First of all, I'm going to concur with Mikey on finding an alternative to the Lemmy's (before his post gets buried in obscurity without ever being read by most people). I was against the idea from the very beginning, which is why I never voted nor accepted the honor of becoming one of the judges.

Secondly, I'd like to address/give a dissenting opinion on a few points posted by Blue Lemma.
Blue Lemma wrote:I think the awards are good in that they give recognition and help draw more attention to the best games (as determined by the voting community).
While I agree that it does give recognition to the games chosen by the community, it actually draws attention away from the more unique EVN games within the community which never got as far as the nominations.

In effect, it sets up a competitive benchmark when there was previously none.
Blue Lemma wrote:However, I also learned that there is the added bonus of motivating people to try games they otherwise wouldn't.
But is this necessarily a good thing? I'm not that desperate for attention for my games. If someone happened to stumble upon it, read it and enjoy it, then that's all well and good. However, if someone read through my game with the intent of giving a review/vote specifically for the Lemmy's, I'd feel quite insulted (even if they do end up liking it).

I'm blowing my own horn here, but I write my stories for people who want to read a story and not for someone reading to deconstruct it for literary analysis (or some semblance of it).
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#30 Post by chronoluminaire » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:26 pm

I think mikey raises an interesting point. Should the Lemmys exist, and is competition a good thing to be encouraging? It's good to address this question head-on.

I answer yes. There are several benefits that others have mentioned - one of the chief ones to me is having a list of a few really notable games that people outside the community can see to get some guides on what's good to play. (Depending on how much time this outsider has, maybe they'll only try the Best Overall, or all the winners, or all the winners and nominees, etc. And if they're interested, then they'll come to the forum and discover the others, amongst whom there may well be some hidden gems, and so on.)
mikey wrote:I have to wonder whether especially in an area (free VNs to share with others) the primary focus of the community shouldn't simply be to allow people to express themselves with their VN, help in creation and cooperative (not competitive) motivation, and should this be the case, whether in turn bringing ranking and judging into all this is beneficial.
That's one focus - and it's clearly traditionally been one of the greatest foci of the community. And the community should clearly work to keeping that focus. But it's clear that that's not the only focus for everyone here. I think the popularity of the Lemmys has shown that the community are interested in some other goals as well - in fact, the same goals you quoted:
* Recognize games that stand out above the rest
* Give creators a pat on the back
* Give newcomers pointers to good games to start with
So, what should the Lemmys achieve? How, if they work, should they manifest in the games released by members of the forums? Or other people's (since any game can be nominated, not just "LSF" games, if there is such a thing)?
That's part of the aim of this thread :)
Is the quoted goal sufficiently clear, is it a good goal to have?
If this is the goal, are there not other or more efficient ways of making those goals happen? Specifically, whether it has to be an award with a vote by the forum/community members that achieves this.
The specifics of whether the voting should be by community members is one question to debate here. But I think the Lemmys' stated goals are worth doing, and it seems a number of others think so too.
lordcloudx wrote:But is this necessarily a good thing? I'm not that desperate for attention for my games. If someone happened to stumble upon it, read it and enjoy it, then that's all well and good. However, if someone read through my game with the intent of giving a review/vote specifically for the Lemmy's, I'd feel quite insulted (even if they do end up liking it).

I'm blowing my own horn here, but I write my stories for people who want to read a story and not for someone reading to deconstruct it for literary analysis (or some semblance of it).
Really? You'd feel insulted if somebody heard that one of your games was in the running for an award, and tried it out to see what all the fuss was about? I think awards to recognise the outstanding games of the year are a bit different to "literary analysis".
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