2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

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azureXtwilight
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#61 Post by azureXtwilight » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:36 am

I kinda have a stupid idea here.. But how about inserting some character award as well? :oops:
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#62 Post by F.I.A » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:37 am

I suggest that a month before Lemmys, whoever interested should submit their game(s) for it. That way, author is allowed to decide whether to have his/her game(s) included or not, and also to promote active participation in forum's events.

Personally, I don't understand with the digression over Lemmys. Comparisons occur even among games by the same author, so is there any difference if we are to mutually agree on the cream of the crop for the year? I think Blue meant good will with this event to allow newcomers to check on notable games the community has to offer. It is similar with how "Ori, Ochi & Onoe" being a benchmark of a notable game.

And to anyone said elsewise, not getting an award is hardly a loss, so stop thinking like a spoilsport.

EDIT: Moe Award will be totally unverdictable and lead to chaotic moments, so no. Period
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#63 Post by Jake » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:52 am

Hime wrote: Here comes the difference that mikey talked about before: it's no wonder if inviduals judge, but in Lemmy's, the community is publicly and organisedly judging and comparing.
So you think that creators should have a right to not have their creations reviewed on third-party sites? Similarly, there's nothing much you can do to prevent it, and to an extent it's pretty healthy.

Why is community X over there judging your work so different from this community judging your work?



That said, I'd agree that it would be polite and wouldn't hurt the idea of an awards programme too much to allow people to opt-out. It would be simple enough for people like Cloud, who don't want anything to do with awards, to PM Blue Lemma and ask politely for his games to not be included even if they do get nominated. If public nominations occur, then he can just drop any nominations for Cloud's games; if an expert panel nominates games, they can be made aware which ones to avoid.

But I'd also agree with Wintermoon that something like the Lemmys should be opt-out rather than opt-in, because the point of the exercise is essentially a review of the year's games. It's true that written comments and fanart and so on is a better indicator of how much you like a game, but I see no reason why having an awards programme should prevent people from writing comments or drawing fanart.


And I'd also note that game-making communities elsewhere on the 'net have no problem having actual opt-in competitions which they still approach in a 'properly artistic' manner, without any real populist whoring and without any real loss of the friendly and supportive atmosphere we have in LSF, so I see no reason why the same couldn't happen here. Go check out the competitions TIGSource regularly runs, for example - some particularly up-their-own-arse beret-wearing arteestic games get produced for those, the ones which are crap (both arty and not) still get supportive and friendly comments, people are helped out and help out... it's generally not too dissimilar a forum, on the whole.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#64 Post by IceD » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:07 am

Jake wrote: And I'd also note that game-making communities elsewhere on the 'net have no problem having actual opt-in competitions which they still approach in a 'properly artistic' manner, without any real populist whoring and without any real loss of the friendly and supportive atmosphere we have in LSF, so I see no reason why the same couldn't happen here. Go check out the competitions TIGSource regularly runs, for example - some particularly up-their-own-arse beret-wearing arteestic games get produced for those, the ones which are crap (both arty and not) still get supportive and friendly comments, people are helped out and help out... it's generally not too dissimilar a forum, on the whole.
You've got good arguments, with which I agree entirely. I'd also love to see such competitions held here as on TIGSource, especially because VN's have more to do with books and are a stories in overall. For example, something like TIGS'es Commonplace Book Competition would be great :)

As to compos, I think there's no problem if we would just organise them by ourselves? isn't it? At least, after NaNoReNo ends. We can always discuss this subject later...

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#65 Post by chronoluminaire » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:06 am

Blue Lemma wrote:The categories seem to be the biggest area of controversy, and there are all sorts of good arguments to be made for the different types. I think it might be helpful to the discussion to have more examples in this area: If you were in charge of categories for the 2009 awards, what would you have them be? (As in the full list)
I think it's fine to have a balance between subjective and more objective awards. My list might go something like:

Best Overall (I think it's good to keep one overall-best award)
Most Effective Story (wanting to include things like Best Drama but also mystery, romance, etc; I considered phrasing this as "Most Evocative Story" and I'd like it to have that kind of flavour but that might be a bit specific)
Best Art and Presentation
Best Sound and Music (generally focused on original music, and nominees should have an indication of whether the SFX and/or music are original, but outstanding use of non-original audio could count too)
Best Technical Achievement
Best Character (this one would take nominations of a character from a VN rather than a whole VN)

Things I couldn't fit into the above list, but would have liked to:
* Some distinction between shorter and longer VNs
* Some kind of "gameplay" award (for hybrids, VNs with minigames, or just the difference between a KN and a VN)
* I'm not against the humour or fanservice awards, but they didn't seem to fit with the others I was listing

Jake already provided his suggested list. Let's see some other people answer Blue's question and provide their lists :)
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#66 Post by lordcloudx » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:33 am

Jake: Wonderful! I just love how I'm being specifically singled out here.
How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#67 Post by Jake » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:44 am

lordcloudx wrote:Jake: Wonderful! I just love how I'm being specifically singled out here.
You're the only one I'd noticed in the thread who'd essentially said he would actually feel offended at being included in such an awards programme, so if I'm going to pick someone for an example, you're the obvious candidate. :P

I get the idea that Hime, for example, protests at the idea of awards because they might cause people to aim specifically for an award when making their VN, but that if someone downloaded one of her stories because it had been nominated and then really enjoyed it, then she'd still be pleased.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#68 Post by lordcloudx » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:46 am

Nice justification. I just LUUUUUV how I'm getting singled out here.
How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#69 Post by Jake » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:21 am

chronoluminaire wrote: Most Effective Story (wanting to include things like Best Drama but also mystery, romance, etc; I considered phrasing this as "Most Evocative Story" and I'd like it to have that kind of flavour but that might be a bit specific)
It's something that I did wrong when I wrote my list as well, I should have used 'or' instead of 'and', but - is there any reason to exclude non-fiction works from a writing award?

I doubt very much that we'll see enough non-fiction VNs to fill out a category of their own, unless there's some other stimulus to write them, but if one or two crop up, why should they necessarily be excluded from a writing award?
lordcloudx wrote:Nice justification. I just LUUUUUV how I'm getting singled out here.
Good for you. :P
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#70 Post by azureXtwilight » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:32 am

Most effective story? Hmm, but everyone has different preferencesof story, right? Won't it be better if we put 'best horror', 'best drama', or 'best mystery'? (Horror and mystery isn't the same, you know).
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#71 Post by Jake » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:52 am

azureXtwilight wrote: Won't it be better if we put 'best horror', 'best drama', or 'best mystery'? (Horror and mystery isn't the same, you know).
If you split them out to such specific subgenres (horror and mystery both typically come under the broader heading of 'drama', for example) then there are two immediate problems:

- You have to be careful not to miss a genre, because otherwise you're rewarding some writing while ignoring other writing. Which is easier said than done, there are lots. (And does a comedy horror set in a post-apocalyptic sci-fi world qualify for three awards?)

- As a result of there being lots of genres, you'll end up with lots of separate awards. This not only dilutes the value of the individual awards, it also means you're more likely to end up with an award that only one VN is eligible for, if nobody explores a particular genre in a particular year. And if nobody makes a horror VN at all in one year, what do you do with the award?

There's always going to be writing and art/presentation in a VN, and it's pretty unlikely that a year will pass without anyone writing a VN with technically-impressive parts or without original music. But it's pretty plausible that a year might pass without anyone writing a mystery VN, to pick an example.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#72 Post by Hime » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:54 am

Jake wrote: I get the idea that Hime, for example, protests at the idea of awards because they might cause people to aim specifically for an award when making their VN, but that if someone downloaded one of her stories because it had been nominated and then really enjoyed it, then she'd still be pleased.
I don't really know about that, and like cloud, I'd rather not have my games in the awards at all. Things I'd have wanted to say had already been said by cloud and mikey, which is why I said I agree with them, and made a few more points about these awards. Nonetheless I have the same feelings about other things these awards may cause, such as competition, so technically I guess my opinion could be grouped with that of cloud's.
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#73 Post by Jake » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:12 am

Hime wrote: I don't really know about that.
Well, it was the impression I got from talking to you on IRC last night about exactly this, put it that way.


By all means read "Cloud" in my previous post as "Cloud, Hime or anyone else who doesn't want their works examined", the meaning remains the same. :P
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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#74 Post by mikey » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:57 pm

I should just mention that I'm glad that I was able to say what I felt, I do actually understand that the particular philosophy (preferring praising positives over constructively criticizing negatives, if those two should come into conflict) doesn't come naturally to anyone, not even me. But for me, this was an idea worth presenting and fighting for because I honestly believe for one reason or another and from experience, that this is something special - and if it just isn't what we all (the LSF, the community, people who visit, the majority) want, then I'd like to simply acknowledge that opinion. To end this particular suggestion/thought in a dignified way.

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Re: 2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

#75 Post by JQuartz » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:07 pm

Jake wrote:But I'd also agree with Wintermoon that something like the Lemmys should be opt-out rather than opt-in,
I think it better to opt-in than opt-out since to opt-out you will need to pay enough attention to know the competition had started which usually a person who don't want to be involved don't do. On the other hand people who wanted to join the competition would pay attention to news about the competition and would not miss the opportunity to opt in. A few years ago there's this company that added a new service to their existing customers and it caused an uproar cause if you didn't want the service you got to opt-out. The company keep saying "But you didn't tell us you didn't want the service." The mob's reply "We didn't say we wanted the service either!" So I suggest opt-in than opt-out.
F.I.A wrote:And to anyone said elsewise, not getting an award is hardly a loss, so stop thinking like a spoilsport.
So says the person who won the first round of the Lemmys, getting nominated. 1 win 1 lost so it's not really a lost. More like a draw. Given that the award is just a badge so it won't make the participants hurt too deeply but nonetheless hurt. Having a natural reaction is not considered a spoilsport (as long as he doesn't make it too difficult for everyone else.).
Jake wrote:You have to be careful not to miss a genre, because otherwise you're rewarding some writing while ignoring other writing. Which is easier said than done, there are lots. (And does a comedy horror set in a post-apocalyptic sci-fi world qualify for three awards?)
Well, if the VN has three genres, then he can only compete for one. And even if the his game is the only one in the genre for that year, using the following method might be okay:
1) The game can only be declared a winner if it gets a number of votes (eg:100 votes) within a specified amount of time (eg:1 month). Failing to do this will mean that it lost. Using this method, even if there's only one game, it still is pretty hard to win. If the person chooses to vote all 100 votes himself then just give him the badge since he wants it so badly. (Gives him a pitiful look)
mikey wrote:preferring praising positives over constructively criticizing negatives, if those two should come into conflict, doesn't come naturally to anyone
Hmm...I think it depend on what the person values more. If the person wants to be happy then he'll prefer praising positives. If the person wants to improve then he'll prefer constructive criticism. Nobody wants venomous criticism though. (if you get a praising positives event: +10 mood; if you get a constructive criticism event: -10 mood, +10 ability; if you get a venomous criticism event: -50 mood)
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