2009 Lemmy Award Discussion

[mrsulu]

I appreciate the "most effective story" impulse, but I'd like to see drama and comedy separate. You can successfully argue that many great dramas have comedy leavened within them and some comedies end with drama (see TVtropes.com: "Send out the clowns"). And that's nifty.

But dramas usually end up with awards bias---it seems trivial to say, "Sure, this tragic, lyrical meditation on the nature of good and evil was great, but I really laughed at the guy falling down in the puddle of butterscotch."

Dammit, butterscotch needs its own award. (I speak as a butterscotch producer, of course.)

Seriously though, up until now, the line between comedy and drama has been pretty easy to spot. You're comparing apples and oil paintings if you put them all in the same category.

If someone does come up with a really fantastic dramedy crossover (say, a "Buffy" or a "Sports Night"), then it gets nominated in both and someone writes a note about what an interesting crossover it is and someone else argues that it's really just a drama with a few comedic notes, etc. etc. That's what makes top-ten lists fun: Spirited discussion!

And, anyway, if it turns out the categories need flexibility, we flex them. If at the end of the year we have 11 awesome dramadies and 4 horror games, well, the judges rename the categories in early December because we've grown in a new direction as a community. Or, there may be a new evolution in gameplay, for example, like a huge wave of Princess Maker powerup games or action sequences, and these will be distinct enough to cause a recategorization.

[Samu-kun]

Why not just have a "best story" award like Chrono said to avoid the issue of differentiating between genres all together? First, genres are difficult to define because stories rarely neatly fall into just a single genre and people have different ideas of different genres. Also, the majority of the games produced here are going to be have romance in some way or another, so it seems kind of moot.

I think we should just go along with Chrono's award system. Also, all games released on Lemma should automatically be put into the pool of contestants, but there should be an opt out system where concerned creators can have their games removed from the nomination list. But I doubt there will be many games that do opt out once the fun starts and things get moving. And Cloud's retired from game making last I heard, so I doubt we'll have to deal with him in the 09 contest too much. Yes, I am singling you out, Cloud! =3

The next thing to do is to just make some sort of tentative schedule and then go back to working on our games as usual...

[JQuartz]

Also, all games released on Lemma should automatically be put into the pool of contestants, but there should be an opt out system where concerned creators can have their games removed from the nomination list.

Oh, well if everyone wants opt-out I wouldn't object since I want to join anyway (must publish a game this year...). I just thought it would be better for people who doesn't want to be involved in this contest that the system is opt-in is used instead.

[Jake]

I think it better to opt-in than opt-out since to opt-out you will need to pay enough attention to know the competition had started which usually a person who don't want to be involved don't do.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around, does it make a sound?

By which I mean - if someone totally misses that there's an awards programme, and doesn't notice that their game is being nominated, then why should it bother them? They didn't notice! Not to mention that it's not the creator's absolute or legal right to exclude their work from discussion or awards, it's just a courtesy.

But then:

competition competition

You are viewing the Lemmys as a competition, but it's not, it's an awards programme. People actively enter competitions, and they do so specifically to compete against other people; the point of the Lemmys isn't to compete against other people, it's to recognise, from a distance, that certain VNs which were created for other reasons are good. This is at least partially for the benefit of people who haven't already played all these VNs to give them a few recommendations to let them know where they might start.

Making the whole thing opt-in firstly encourages people to view it as a competition, which even I think is a bad idea. Secondly, it means there will be drastically fewer entries, meaning that there's a higher chance that a really good VN will be ignored because the creator didn't think to enter it. Some people are too modest to go and actively promote their games, but still make games worthy of recognition. Opt-in defeats one of the stated aims of the awards.

(This doesn't preclude people running competitions, of course. But due to the very nature of competitions, they wouldn't benefit from so much public discussion.)

And to anyone said elsewise, not getting an award is hardly a loss, so stop thinking like a spoilsport.

So says the person who won the first round of the Lemmys, getting nominated.

I would agree totally, and nothing I created was even nominated. It doesn't bother me, I was without an award before the Lemmys and I'm without an award after the Lemmys, it's the same.

(If anyone is looking for nominations for "Best Game With 'Renaissance' In The Title" awards for 2008, I can point you in the direction of a deserving winner...)

Well, if the VN has three genres, then he can only compete for one.

You said 'compete' again! Stop it!

Who decides which one it contends for? And really, why? If a VN has humour and also fanservice, should it also only be able to recieve one aw- OH WAIT.

I'd like to see drama and comedy separate.

(As it goes, while I'd generally be against splitting out too many different things, humour is one of the things I'd be perfectly happy with an extra award for. I don't think it's totally necessary, but I don't think it's a problem in the same way that trying to enumerate genres would be.)

[JQuartz]

You said 'compete' again! Stop it!

Yes, yes. I just thought that a contest would be better than an award. But I'm okay either way.

Who decides which one it contends for? And really, why?

Well I proposed it under the assumption that it was a contest. And as a contest, the participant will choose the genre he will compete in. So even the game was in tragedy genre, he can still enter it in comedy genre. It'll definitely lose though. Why should the chooser be the maker? Because if it doesn't win he can't blame the nominator/judges for placing his game in a genre he has no chance of winning.

You are viewing the Lemmys as a competition, but it's not, it's an awards programme.

Yeah but it won't change the people's intention to compete for the awards.

I would agree totally, and nothing I created was even nominated. It doesn't bother me, I was without an award before the Lemmys and I'm without an award after the Lemmys, it's the same.

Probably you don't hold the Lemmys in high regards but some people do. This reminds me of a basketball competition I joined in the past which I lost and I was totally devastated by the loss. On the other hand, I also joined a soccer competition and I didn't even bother about the result. Both are competitions but why the huge difference? Because I have high regards for the basketball competition (the winner gets nothing except the ability to claim they are the top of the school. They don't even get medals.) not like the soccer competition (this one the winner gets a trophy though)which I have no interest in.

[lordcloudx]

Samu... shut the FUCK UP!

[Jake]

Probably you don't hold the Lemmys in high regards but some people do.

Or perhaps I'm just capable of objectively realising that the one VN I created in 2008 wasn't as good as the ones which won the categories it was eligible for? Being recognised with an award would be pretty nice, but being recognised with an award that I knew I didn't deserve would be insulting.

Or perhaps I appreciate that as nice as it would be to be recognised by my peers as doing X better than everyone else in the community one year, it's hardly the end of the world if they're too blind to recognise my incomprehensibly vast genius?

Please, there's no need for baseless assumptions.

[JQuartz]

Please, there's no need for baseless assumptions.

Understood. My assumptions must have been coloured by my experience.

t's hardly the end of the world if they're too blind to recognise my incomprehensibly vast genius?

Yeah, I guess because this judgment is quite subjective so there still the possibility that the judges just don't have such a refined taste.

[Wintermoon]

I don't agree with the idea of opt-in or opt-out. If I think that a certain visual novel is the best of the year, it's my right to say so. The original creator doesn't have the right to censor me.

I also don't see why a community award is more problematic than some person posting their list of what's best. This message board is just a message board. It doesn't define the bounds of the English-language visual novel community. People can and do post their visual novels to other message boards. Visual novels that were never posted on this message board can and should be eligible for awards. Likewise, other websites can and do post their own rewards, without asking permission from the original creator.

As a compromise, how about this. At the end of the year, everybody posts their own list of what visual novels they felt were the best of the previous year. People can use any categories they want to, or no categories at all. No voting, no counting. If people want to see which visual novel got the most mentions, they have to do the counting in the privacy of their own homes, or on their own websites. That way we have a list of notable visual novels at the end of the year without some people getting offended. Or would some people still find that offensive?

I'd rather see the Lemmys continue as a community award, but anything is better than turning them into an opt-in contest.

[Samu-kun]

Somebody here obviously needs a potty break. =3 This discussion is getting too detailed now and is dampening the fun of even having award ceremonies in the first place. People are arguing now just for the sake of arguing, so I think it's about time for Lemma to come to a decision about Lemma 09 before things get even more tl;dr.

[JQuartz]

The original creator doesn't have the right to censor me.

That's true but just like venomous criticisms which the creators couldn't censor, it could get you on the creator's bad side. We're here to make games not enemies. (Though I find it weird that people actually wouldn't welcome praises as stated in your example. I thought the people don't want to be involved in the awards because it causes unnecessary comparison...)

[musical74]

Wow...lot of discussion for this!

I THINK the main complaint is that the Lemmys are seen as a competion. At least, that's what I'm getting from everyone... I would rather that the Lemmys not be viewed as a competion but rather as a *which do you think is the best of these?* By calling it a competion, it has a negative connotation and no matter what happens, someone is going to be ticked/upset over the results. For example, I say that Magical Boutique is a wonderful game, someone else says "eh, that's so so* and someone else really dislikes it. Who's right? All three are right because it's a point of view. Please keep that in mind...if I vote for a given game/VN, it's becaise I liked it. Jake may have a different view. Samu-Kun may have a different view. Hime may have a different view. Lordcloud may have a different view. EVERYONE has the right to vote and explain why they voted the way that they did IF everyone voted the same way it would make for a VERY boring Lemmy award

[F.I.A]

So says the person who won the first round of the Lemmys, getting nominated. 1 win 1 lost so it's not really a lost. More like a draw.

I am sure none of my games were nominated. EVE and Limitless Fire were not nominated, and Attorney D was out of the league by day 1. Just where do you get that number from? And for the last time, Lemmys is not about winning and losing.

Given that the award is just a badge so it won't make the participants hurt too deeply but nonetheless hurt. Having a natural reaction is not considered a spoilsport (as long as he doesn't make it too difficult for everyone else.).

It is just you that find it hurt. Please refrain from assuming that everyone will follow suit.

[JQuartz]

I am sure none of my games were nominated.

I thought one of your games was nominated because I saw this:

Real Life: A Bishoujo Adventure
The Baka Trio (FIA, Ignosco, Lordcloudx)

And for the last time, Lemmys is not about winning and losing.

Got it.

It is just you that find it hurt. Please refrain from assuming that everyone will follow suit.

I didn't find it hurtful (especially since I didn't participate) but I can't assume everyone will follow suit. I seen so many types of people before in my life that I just think there would be people that would be hurt by the lost. I seen before a person who eats uncooked instant noodle straight from its packaging and a person who eats crackers seasoned with instant noodles' seasoning and a person who eats instant noodle with milk as soup so I nowadays I believe there's people of every type imaginable.

[PyTom]

I seen before a person who eats uncooked instant noodle straight from its packaging and a person who eats crackers seasoned with instant noodles' seasoning and a person who eats instant noodle with milk as soup so I nowadays I believe there's people of every type imaginable.

Heck, on some deserted island somewhere, there might even be people for whom instant noodles don't even figure in their diet.