Expectations of convention vs. narrative

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Zurafel
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Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#1 Post by Zurafel »

I'm new to visual novels. I'm creating an otome, or at least I think that's the genre it fits in. I know otomes usually have all male love interests, and although my game is 50/50 male and female romance options, exploring the story with the romances is still the point of the game, and for that reason it will probably appeal to women more than men? (If anyone could tell me what category that is, I'd appreciate it.)

My main question is, how upsetting would it be to players to have one of the romance routes end in near total bloodshed? I'm talking "everyone dies except the MC and her love interest." Every beloved side character and every friend along with the antagonists. From a narrative standpoint, I think it's what's best for the story. Actually, it's crucial. It isn't just pathos for the sake of pathos. Still, despite having a happily-ever-after ending with the romance, or as happy as one can get after that experience, I know that's a grim path to take. The other routes in the game are more conventional: there is conflict, clear-cut villains, some loss, but the MC can protect almost everything and everyone important to her, and they conclude with a clear sense of victory. In this bloody route, it's a series of lows and highs riddled with doubt, sympathetic villains, near total loss, and wondering if the outcome was worth the cost.

I'm concerned that people that like that particular love interest will feel disappointed or angry that their "husbando's" route is the only one so tragic and different from the other routes, that they'll get to the end and assume they got the bad ending, and try to go back to see what they need to do to get the "good" one.

I have more of a background with traditional writing, so that's how I'm writing this game. I think that's mostly a good thing, that video games need more "outsiders", but I recognize that the conventions of a genre cannot be totally ignored. I once read a book series in which the first few novels were happy-go-lucky, good triumphs over evil adventures, and then felt terribly betrayed when the final book killed almost everyone off and turned the protagonists into villains. I'd hate to leave my players feeling betrayed the way I did.

How would you guys feel about playing an otome type game in which one love interest had such a devastating climax compared to the other romance options?

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Re: Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#2 Post by Mammon »

If it's crucial and fitting to the story and the very relationship, then keep in the everyone but those two dies ending. When they get to live, that's probably still enough. In fact, if it's really crucial yet the story chickens out with an ending where everyone lives happily ever after, then the readers might feel cheated.

This of course depends on the what and how of what you're pondering about, I don't know the finer details. However, especially with these kinds of things it's probably important to stick to what you think should happen and what makes the most sense. That's an advantage of indie games, they can make such decisions and take gambles. If we want an absolutely secured good ending where the good guy always finds a way to resolve things without mayor sacrifice, then the audience might as well watch the much better funded hollywood films about similar stories.
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Re: Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#3 Post by gekiganwing »

Zurafel wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:01 pmI know otomes usually have all male love interests, and although my game is 50/50 male and female romance options, exploring the story with the romances is still the point of the game, and for that reason it will probably appeal to women more than men?
There are visual novels which have both male and female love interests. That said, if the protagonist is female, and at least half of the love interests are male, then I believe the final product can be called an otome game.
Zurafel wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:01 pmHow would you guys feel about playing an otome type game in which one love interest had such a devastating climax compared to the other romance options?
1. Think about professionally published fiction which had a plot twist. You can probably remember some examples where the plot twist made sense. Likewise, you can probably remember some examples which seemed like nonsense (it seemed like an attempt to shock the audience, or it broke your suspension of disbelief).

2. I've been active on the r/visualnovels and r/otomegames sub-Reddits. As such, I've seen people talk about story routes that were tragic or horrifying. Their comments have usually been positive. (I've skipped nearly all computer visual novels since 2011... :oops: ...so I haven't experienced most of the stories which they have.)

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Re: Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#4 Post by arcadeparty »

What you're describing doesn't sound that unusual to me, honestly! I know there's plenty of otome VNs with some truly sad/tragic endings, as far as I've heard from otome fans, but I usually stick to the BL side of things -- which is absolutely loaded with bloody, brutal bad ends! :lol: I would recommend both taking a look at other VNs on a similar basis by exploring things like VNDB's "Bad Ending With Story" or "Only One Bad Ending" tags.

This is really interesting territory that has a lot of room for individual takes on the idea, so don't worry, you're not going to be the only person exploring it in a totally rigid genre otherwise or anything like that! A lot of brand new Western developers might get bogged down in worrying about "[breaking] visual novel genre conventions", but I'm going to echo Mammon in just saying that you should make whatever story seems most coherent and interesting to you as a developer. Dev cycles can go so slowly and trends can change so quickly!

And as far as your concern about whether or not you can call it an otome if it has GxG -- I think otome fans generally just want at least a fair share of GxB routes? (Correct me if I'm wrong!) If you're worried about making it clear what kind of game it is otherwise, you could always label it more deliberately as a "GxB/GxG visual novel" and rely on the other genres (horror, slice of life, etc) as descriptors. I imagine a fair few GxB-only otome fans will still look at a lot of games labelled GxB, even if they're not marked otome specifically.

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Re: Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#5 Post by Zurafel »

These answers are heartening to read.
Mammon wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 5:29 pm If it's crucial and fitting to the story and the very relationship, then keep in the everyone but those two dies ending. When they get to live, that's probably still enough. In fact, if it's really crucial yet the story chickens out with an ending where everyone lives happily ever after, then the readers might feel cheated.
You've got a point. Having something terrible almost happen would not have the same impact as it actually happening. If I read through this story line and it didn't happen, I'd feel like it took the easy way out, and it'd be weakened for it. There are ways to signify loss on a lesser scale, but the big scale is the point of it here, and necessary to justify the dynamics in a certain relationship, not to mention other running themes.
arcadeparty wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:00 pm
This is really interesting territory that has a lot of room for individual takes on the idea, so don't worry, you're not going to be the only person exploring it in a totally rigid genre otherwise or anything like that! A lot of brand new Western developers might get bogged down in worrying about "[breaking] visual novel genre conventions", but I'm going to echo Mammon in just saying that you should make whatever story seems most coherent and interesting to you as a developer. Dev cycles can go so slowly and trends can change so quickly!
I hadn't taken into consideration the change of trends in the genre when I became concerned about this, which is ironic because that is what drew me to visual novels in the first place. With so many indie visual novels being made and the requirements to make them accessible for nonprofessionals, it feels like the perfect platform for growth in an otherwise stale industry. If this sort of thing hadn't happened already, though it seems like it has, given your links, then I should be less concerned about precedent and make the game I'd like to see.
arcadeparty wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:00 pm And as far as your concern about whether or not you can call it an otome if it has GxG -- I think otome fans generally just want at least a fair share of GxB routes? (Correct me if I'm wrong!) If you're worried about making it clear what kind of game it is otherwise, you could always label it more deliberately as a "GxB/GxG visual novel" and rely on the other genres (horror, slice of life, etc) as descriptors. I imagine a fair few GxB-only otome fans will still look at a lot of games labelled GxB, even if they're not marked otome specifically.
Hmm. With that in mind, with such few male romance options, I guess I don't feel comfortable calling it an otome, but GxB and GxG could work.

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Re: Expectations of convention vs. narrative

#6 Post by dreamfarmer »

All I suggest is warning people. And, as many games do, labeling your ends. If something says ‘good end’ or ‘true end’ or ‘best end’ then nobody is going to assume they got a ‘bad end’. They may in fact be furious at you, but you have to tell the story you want to tell and just accept that it might not be a raging success as a result.

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