Is this yaoi?

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
NadOtavlas
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:46 am
Contact:

Is this yaoi?

#1 Post by NadOtavlas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:09 am

I'm planning on making a M/M dating sim and I'm wondering if it could be considered yaoi or bara.

You might be saying in your head right now; "Is this even a question? If it has girly guys then it's yaoi. If it's got muscular hypermacho guys then it's bara."

But all 4 of the potential romantic interests in the game have very different body types from one another such as:

・A (as mentioned earlier) girly bishounen character.
・A (legal) cutesy shota character
・A hypermasculine macho boxer character.
・A fat/chubby sumo wrestler character.

Would this be considered yaoi/BL or bara?
Last edited by NadOtavlas on Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Imperf3kt
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2837
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:05 am
Location: Your monitor
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#2 Post by Imperf3kt » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:14 am

I always thought the definitions of yaoi / bara were pretty clear.
Yaoi: written by women
Bara: written by men
Bara (薔薇, "rose") is a colloquialism used to refer to a genre of Japanese comic art and media known within Japan as gay manga (ゲイ漫画), gei komi (ゲイ コミ, "gay comics"), or men's love (ML メンズラブ, "menzu rabu"). The genre focuses on male same-sex love, as created primarily by gay men for a gay male audience.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bara_(genre)
Yaoi (/ˈjaʊi/; Japanese: やおい [ja.o.i]), also known as boys' love (ボーイズ ラブ bōizu rabu) or BL (ビーエル bīeru), is a genre of fictional media originating in Japan that features homoerotic relationships between male characters. It is typically created by women for women and is distinct from homoerotic media marketed to gay male audiences, such as bara, but it also attracts male readers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi
Last edited by Imperf3kt on Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Warning: May contain trace amounts of gratuitous plot.
pro·gram·mer (noun) An organism capable of converting caffeine into code.

Twitter

User avatar
Hijiri
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:35 pm
Completed: Death Rule:lost code Overdrive Edition, Where the White Doves Rest-Tsumihanseishi
Projects: Death Rule: Killing System
Organization: MESI Games
IRC Nick: Hizi
Tumblr: mesigames
Skype: kurotezuka
itch: hijiri
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#3 Post by Hijiri » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:38 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:14 am
I always thought the definitions of yaoi / bara were pretty clear.
Yaoi: written by women
Bara: written by men

Opinion based on:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bara_(genre)
Generally, yes, although it's also fair to say not all BL is written by women. Part of the definitions are tied to art style.
BL in general has bishounen styled men with strict seme/uke (top/bottom) roles. As in, you take one look at the characters and you know exactly what role who plays what.
On the contrary, the Bara (or ML) genre has more masculine/larger men and the top and bottom roles aren't defined at all.

In terms of what the OP posted, the first and (arguably) the second LI's wouldn't be out of place in a regular BL while the last two are definitely squarely in the bara genre. Honestly, pick the label you feel fits best or just label it as both. As an example, No, Thank You!! is labeled as a BL game, but two of the love interests, Maki and Kouichi, are not the type commonly seen in BL games.
Image Image
"Perfection goal that always changes. Can pursue, cannot obtain."

NadOtavlas
Newbie
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:46 am
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#4 Post by NadOtavlas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:09 am

Hijiri wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:38 am
Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:14 am
I always thought the definitions of yaoi / bara were pretty clear.
Yaoi: written by women
Bara: written by men

Opinion based on:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bara_(genre)
Generally, yes, although it's also fair to say not all BL is written by women. Part of the definitions are tied to art style.
BL in general has bishounen styled men with strict seme/uke (top/bottom) roles. As in, you take one look at the characters and you know exactly what role who plays what.
On the contrary, the Bara (or ML) genre has more masculine/larger men and the top and bottom roles aren't defined at all.

In terms of what the OP posted, the first and (arguably) the second LI's wouldn't be out of place in a regular BL while the last two are definitely squarely in the bara genre. Honestly, pick the label you feel fits best or just label it as both. As an example, No, Thank You!! is labeled as a BL game, but two of the love interests, Maki and Kouichi, are not the type commonly seen in BL games.
I'll consider calling it both. Its worth noting that I didn't really conceptualize the VN with specific target audiences like fujoshi or gay men in mind in the first place. It was made for people who happen to be interested in M/M stuff regardless of gender which is partly the reason why there is plenty of diversity in the body types of the characters.

Thanks for the discussion.

User avatar
Imperf3kt
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2837
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:05 am
Location: Your monitor
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#5 Post by Imperf3kt » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:25 am

I'm not sure why you reference BL in this bit. BL means Boys Love. Yaoi and Bara are both forms of BL.
Hijiri wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:38 am
As an example, No, Thank You!! is labeled as a BL game, but two of the love interests, Maki and Kouichi, are not the type commonly seen in BL games.
Are you suggesting that there are heterosexual characters?
Warning: May contain trace amounts of gratuitous plot.
pro·gram·mer (noun) An organism capable of converting caffeine into code.

Twitter

User avatar
High
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#6 Post by High » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:43 am

NadOtavlas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:09 am
Would this be considered yaoi/BL or bara?
I don't think you should label your game actually. The terms Bara and Yaoi sort of lose their meaning in the West so it is pointless to try and fit in to a box that is even clearly defined. I think you should just consider your game a Gay game and that's it.

To me, what defines if a work is Yaoi or Bara is not who creates it, but the intended audience. Yaoi as a genre was created by straight women to fetishize gay male love for straight women. Bara was created by gay men for gay men. Coming Out On Top, the most famous gay visual novel of the West, was created by a straight woman, but if I had to label it, gun to my head, I would call it Bara because it was clearly created for a gay male audience. If you absolutely must label your game I think you should asks yourself : "Who am I creating this game for? What is my audience?" And that will tell you what genre it fits in.

Imperf3kt wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:25 am
Are you suggesting that there are heterosexual characters?
I'm pretty sure @Hijiri means that Maki and Kouchi are big, muscular, older men who are more common in Bara works, and not in Yaoi.

User avatar
Selidor
Regular
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:42 pm
Tumblr: gateofselidor
Location: Sussex, UK
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#7 Post by Selidor » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:02 pm

It's inaccurate to say that BL is just straight women fetishising gay male love, and it feeds into a lot of negative attitudes towards BL fans that have been on the rise over the last few months. It's true that BL is more aimed towards women and bara more aimed towards men, but the line is pretty blurred now, and historically the audience for BL had always included a significant proportion of lesbians, transgender people, and other minorities, including plenty of men. There's a great panel transcript here with a famous geicomi artist (Gengoroh Tagame) and some western manga publishing professionals which includes the complex relationship between BL and 'bara'/geicomi, and the diverse audiences for both.

As for the game, I think it's fine to categorise it as BL, but there's nothing stopping you from marketing it to both audiences. If you don't think it fits neatly enough into either category, just call it a gay dating sim or something.

User avatar
High
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#8 Post by High » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:38 pm

Selidor wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:02 pm
It's inaccurate to say that BL is just straight women fetishising gay male love, and it feeds into a lot of negative attitudes towards BL fans that have been on the rise over the last few months.
No, it is 100% acurate, you're being revisionist. Since the genre's inception the main authors of Boy's Love/Yaoi have been straight women and the target audience has also been straight women. That the genre has attracted fans outside its intended demographic, especially in the West, doesn't change that fact.

What you call "negative attitudes" is just overdue criticism the genre (and slash fiction) has been getting thanks to gay men expressing their discomfort with having their sexuality fetishized. Which is part of a larger conversation on the fetishizing of queer sexuality by straight people, like for example the conversation surrounding the Rita Ora song Girls realesed earlier this year.

User avatar
Aviala
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:40 am
Completed: Your Royal Gayness, Our War Everlasting, Love Bug
Organization: Lizard Hazard Games
Tumblr: lizardhazardgames
itch: aviala
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#9 Post by Aviala » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:34 am

Like other people have suggested, it depends on your target audience. Who do you think will want to play your game?

For example, Dream Daddy is a gay dating sim but I haven't ever seen it advertised as BL. I think that (combined with the cartoony art style) is one of the reasons that it was able to reach a wider audience. Yaoi and BL as terms have very specific and sometimes negative connotations. If your target audience is BL fans, then it makes sense to call it yaoi or BL but if not, those labels may actually hurt your game. Labels that may be a bit more neutral would be "gay" or "LGBT" for example.

I'm currently making a game that has gay romance options but since I'm aiming the game for a more general audience than hardcore BL fans it would be really, really bad for the game if I advertised it as a game with "yaoi romance" or whatever.

User avatar
Probably Alice
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#10 Post by Probably Alice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm

Just throwing in some history bc studying the relationships between yaoi/BL/bara/queer men/straight women/ect. was basically my university thesis lol.

The debate about the potential harm of BL (most useful blanket term as its remains more accurate to its original context and meaning unlike yaoi) started all the way back in the 90's and there was intensive back-and-forth discussion over it in Japan, so this is not a new topic of conversation. BL began within a very specific cultural and historical context. It is not accurate to apply absolutisms such as "only straight women consume yaoi" (there are queer people and straight men who consume it as well, even if they are not the primary audience) and "yaoi has strictly defined heteronormative roles of uke and seme" (for example the very first BL, Kaze to Ki no Uta, which established many later popular tropes, does not use this dynamic), same as it is inaccurate to apply absolutisms to any genre (or most things, honestly). Also because of the fact that BL specifically is a cultural import, there is necessarily a filter through which Western audiences received it. Not all BL became distributed outside Japan, and understanding of its history, terms, and cultural context have also been misconstrued and adapted by new international readers. We can see that by the fact that every poster in this thread so far seems to have a different definition of what "yaoi", "BL," and "Bara" even are.

I'd also like to say that while the 'Yaoi Debate' (as it's called in Japan) is far from over, at the conclusion of that original back-and-forth there was a greater understanding and acknowledgement on both sides, and lots of healthy introspection which helped the genre to evolve as a result. :> I'd also like to point out that often (though of course not always) women who consume BL are more open to learning about real gay issues, even if the initial context they are introduced to them is misguided. And finally, without going into even more unnecessary details, BL has since its inception been a platform for women to escape patriarchal pressures and explore their own identity. I'm not saying that makes it any less uncomfortable for gay men to reckon with, but there is more to it on a cultural and subconscious level than just women looking to get hot or perniciously fetishize a subculture. BL has even helped some trans people come to term with their identities.

Bara is also really interesting as it's been coopted a bit more forcefully by the gay community in the West. If we are talking about what "strictly" is Bara in its original context, then it's limited to publications from a specific magazine. Originally it was even seen as an insult so it was not tied to any specific artform or genre at all. I will add this from the Wikipedia article since it sums it up much better than I could: "The use of "bara" as an umbrella term to describe gay Japanese comic art is largely a non-Japanese phenomenon; the term is not used within Japan, and its use is not universally accepted by creators of gay manga." In the Western context I think it was a very useful safehaven for people who enjoy """"anime"""" style queer narratives but wanted to push back against the influx of extremely stereotyped BL works that were being introduced to the West in the late 90s/early 2000s.
And no, I would not say that BL encompasses Bara, as Bara was partially created in reaction to BL.
High wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:38 pm
Selidor wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:02 pm
It's inaccurate to say that BL is just straight women fetishising gay male love, and it feeds into a lot of negative attitudes towards BL fans that have been on the rise over the last few months.
No, it is 100% acurate, you're being revisionist. Since the genre's inception the main authors of Boy's Love/Yaoi have been straight women and the target audience has also been straight women. That the genre has attracted fans outside its intended demographic, especially in the West, doesn't change that fact.

What you call "negative attitudes" is just overdue criticism the genre (and slash fiction) has been getting thanks to gay men expressing their discomfort with having their sexuality fetishized. Which is part of a larger conversation on the fetishizing of queer sexuality by straight people, like for example the conversation surrounding the Rita Ora song Girls realesed earlier this year.
The article you linked was based off of a very limited understanding of McLelland's work (I think I've read practically everything by that man lol) and moreover showed deficiency in their understanding of the terms as they relate to the people who use them (ie purposefully misleading the reader through the use of the term 'rotten girl' without properly contextualizing why that term is used, which they would know if they read the full of their own reference). I do not think it is a good source to teach people about the 'Yaoi Debate' as it is more inflammatory than academic.

In response to the original question, I would agree that using a blanket term such as "LGBT(QA+)", "gay", "BxB", "queer", or maaaaybe "BL" is the best way to go. As this thread has pretty succinctly shown there are countless preconceptions over what constitutes "yaoi" and "bara" in the West and few people seem to be able to agree on them, so using those terms comes with their own sets of baggage which can unfortunately alienate certain audiences. Unless you have a specific target audience in mind, going with something less specific is probably better. Besides, using these different tropes means that at least on some level you already don't feel like limiting yourself to the perceived limits of a single genre, so why force yourself into them?

Anyways, I would never want to say that queer men questioning the place of BL is illegitimate as I've often struggled with those feelings myself (part of the reason I took up studying it lol). But I think that constructing barriers between consumers/creators of genres and relegating some games to an 'undesirable' category maybe does more harm than good. These are extremely complex and nuanced topics which have the double edge sword of having to cross cultural contexts, so I think they should be treated with due respect and care... and that's why I felt like opening my big mouth so sorry to anyone who actually read this Ted Talk and thnx
Last edited by Probably Alice on Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
High
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#11 Post by High » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:51 pm

I will not post in this thread anymore, it has already veered enough into Off-Topic territory. (I'm really sorry @NadOtavias) If anyone would like to continue to discuss Yaoi, make a thread for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
Just throwing in some history bc studying the relationships between yaoi/BL/bara/queer men/straight women/ect. was basically my university thesis lol
Okay, cool. Maybe you could even link us to your thesis and we could disc...
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
(so of course my ears prick up when I see it being discussed & I have to throw my big d energy around).
...thank u, next
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
The debate about the potential harm of BL (most useful blanket term as its remains more accurate to its original context and meaning unlike yaoi) started all the way back in the 90's and there was intensive back-and-forth discussion over it in Japan, so this is not a new topic of conversation.
The harm that it does to Japanese gay men isn't "potential", it is real. Whether you would like to acknowledge it or not.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
BL began within a very specific cultural and historical context.
Which you for some reason neglected to tell us. Also the the very specific cultural and historical context which BL was created is not relevant to the conversation at hand. We're are trying to define what that term, and Bara, means to an English speaking public to help @NadOtavias label his game.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
It is not accurate to apply absolutisms such as "only straight women consume yaoi" (there are queer people and straight men who consume it as well, even if they are not the primary audience)
Literally not a single poster in this thread has said that only straight women consume BL. In my post that you've quoted I said that straight women were the main authors and main consumers of it, I never said only.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
and "yaoi has strictly defined heteronormative roles of uke and seme"
Funny thing is no one in this thread has said this either. So why do I feel like you went through my posting history to fish out this post of mine, where I talk about how the Uke/Seme dynamic reinforces heteronormativity. And even on that post I said that "typical pairings" incorporate that dynamic, I never said all. And even then you can't deny that the Uke/Seme dynamic does reinforce heteronormative gender roles because, overwhelmingly, the Uke despite being male is coded as female and the Seme as male.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
(for example the very first BL, Kaze to Ki no Uta, which established many later popular tropes, does not use this dynamic)
And? How is this relevant? This is pure grasping at straws. The first work in the genre might not have included it, but somewhere along the line the Seme/Uke dynamic has become a genre staple. And you can't deny that.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
same as it is inaccurate to apply absolutisms to any genre (or most things, honestly).
The only poster I've seen on this thread applying absolutisms to anything was me in my first post when wrote that 'yaoi is for straight women' and 'bara is for gay men' to help the OP find his game's audience. And that... just doesn't seem crazy or far fetched to me. It is just acknowledging the main audience of the genre.

Despite attracting fans of other demographics, the target audience of Yaoi is straight women. It's made for them. So called 'Chick flicks' in the West often attract a gay male audience, but there are still not made for gay men, there are made for women. My Little Pony : Friendship Is Magic has, notoriously, an adult straight male audience, but it is still not made for them, it's made for young girls. Acknowledging that certain works or genres have a target audience doesn't mean others outside that audience don't enjoy it too.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
Also because of the fact that BL specifically is a cultural import, there is necessarily a filter through which Western audiences received it. Not all BL became distributed outside Japan, and understanding of its history, terms, and cultural context have also been misconstrued and adapted by new international readers. We can see that by the fact that every poster in this thread so far seems to have a different definition of what "yaoi", "BL," and "Bara" even are.
I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed to be an expert on the history and cultural significance of Yaoi/BL/Bara in Japan, except you. We are all posting our opinions fully aware that the terms we are discussing have a different meaning in the Anglosphere than they do in Japan. And the definition we seem to have collective created for what those terms means for an English speaking public is "it depends on your audience."
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
I'd also like to say that while the 'Yaoi Debate' (as it's called in Japan) is far from over, at the conclusion of that original back-and-forth there was a greater understanding and acknowledgement on both sides, and lots of healthy introspection which helped the genre to evolve as a result. :>
When one side is a sexual minority that is being fetishized and the other the ones doing the fetishizing I don't think there is much to debate.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
I'd also like to point out that often (though of course not always) women who consume BL are more open to learning about real gay issues, even if the initial context they are introduced to them is misguided.
"Often" is very generous of you, I think "rarely" would be more accurate. The very state of LGBT+ rights in Japan (no same-sex marriage, no same-sex adoption, no nationwide anti-discrimination laws) is proof that the transformation of a fujoshi into a gay ally is a pipe dream more than anything.

I applaud the women who become more emphatic to the gay cause after reading BL. I really do.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
And finally, without going into even more unnecessary details, BL has since its inception been a platform for women to escape patriarchal pressures and explore their own identity.
And? Because women suffer from the patriarchy does it make it acceptable for them to punch down on and fetishize a sexual minority they outrank in power and privilege?
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
I'm not saying that makes it any less uncomfortable for gay men to reckon with,
No, you're doing worse than that. You're acknowledging their discomfort of gay men and handwaving it.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
but there is more to it on a cultural and subconscious level than just women looking to get hot or perniciously fetishize a subculture.
Their intent is not the point, the effect it causes is. I don't think any of the women set out to do harm, but that is what they are doing anyway.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
BL has even helped some trans people come to term with their identities.
I am well aware. It has specially helped trans woman come to terms with their gender identity because they see themselves in the Uke character, who is coded as female.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
Bara is also really interesting as it's been coopted a bit more forcefully by the gay community in the West.
True.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
If we are talking about what "strictly" is Bara in its original context, then it's limited to publications from a specific magazine. Originally it was even seen as an insult so it was not tied to any specific artform or genre at all. I will add this from the Wikipedia article since it sums it up much better than I could: "The use of "bara" as an umbrella term to describe gay Japanese comic art is largely a non-Japanese phenomenon; the term is not used within Japan, and its use is not universally accepted by creators of gay manga."
That's is a honestly very interesting historical factoid. But it's not relevant to the discussion at hand.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
In the Western context I think it was a very useful safehaven for people who enjoy """"anime"""" style queer narratives but wanted to push back against the influx of extremely stereotyped BL works that were being introduced to the West in the late 90s/early 2000s.
Also true.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
And no, I would not say that BL encompasses Bara, as Bara was partially created in reaction to BL.
I don't think anyone was wondering this.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
The article you linked was based off of a very limited understanding of McLelland's work
(I think I've read practically everything by that man lol)
I get it. You are very smart and have a college degree.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
and moreover showed deficiency in their understanding of the terms as they relate to the people who use them (ie purposefully misleading the reader through the use of the term 'rotten girl' without properly contextualizing why that term is used, which they would know if they read the full of their own reference).
You haven't contextualized it for us either, so how are we, mere mortals without higher education, supposed to know.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
I do not think it is a good source to teach people about the 'Yaoi Debate' as it is more inflammatory than academic.
It's a gay man's opinion on the matter. The article is also supposed to accompany this episode of a docu-series(skip to 11:28 for the relevant part). You want an "unbiased" take on the "Yaoi Debate" but you don't seem to realize that you have, clearly, already taken a side.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
In response to the original question, I would agree that using a blanket term such as "LGBT(QA+)", "gay", "BxB", "queer", or maaaaybe "BL" is the best way to go. As this thread has pretty succinctly shown there are countless preconceptions over what constitutes "yaoi" and "bara" in the West and few people seem to be able to agree on them, so using those terms comes with their own sets of baggage which can unfortunately alienate certain audiences. Unless you have a specific target audience in mind, going with something less specific is probably better. Besides, using these different tropes means that at least on some level you already don't feel like limiting yourself to the perceived limits of a single genre, so why force yourself into them?
Oh so you agree with me on that? I think that's four people now that said to go with a just gay.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
Anyways, I would never want to say that queer men questioning the place of BL is illegitimate as I've often struggled with those feelings myself (part of the reason I took up studying it lol).
And yet you dismissed an article written by a gay man as "inflammatory" just a few lines back. And wrote a long ass post to dismiss mine.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
But I think that constructing barriers between consumers/creators of genres and relegating some games to an 'undesirable' category maybe does more harm than good.
I think straight women objectifying gay male sexuality does more harm than good to Japanese gay men.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
These are extremely complex and nuanced topics which have the double edge sword of having to cross cultural contexts, so I think they should be treated with due respect and care...
It's really not that difficult to understand. One group is being fetishized, one group is doing the fetishizing.
Probably Alice wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm
and that's why I felt like opening my big mouth so sorry to anyone who actually read this Ted Talk and thnx
I accept your apology.

I'm really disappointed by the kneejerk reaction of someone who claims to have studied the genre Japanese gay fiction as deeply as you said you have. It felt very "that mean gay man is attacking the thing I like so let me trow some big words at him." Was the time and energy you spent writing an essay that amounts to "It is too complicated for y'all to understand" really worth it? If you've studied the "relationships between yaoi/BL/bara/queer men/straight women/ect" you would know that Yaoi/BL/WhateverTermIsAcademicallyCorrect is (to use that dreadful word everyone is tired of reading) problematic. And... that's entirely okay.

It's entirely okay to love Yaoi. It's okay to love problematic things, as long you are aware that they're problematic. It is not okay to pretend the problematic aspects of things you love don't exist. It is not okay to defend the problematic aspects of things you love, or pretend like they don't cause harm, or talk over the people they are harming. Honestly you calling it a "debate" when one side is clearly the victim of the other is really fucking gross. Like I've actually felt physical disgust when I read it.

And good luck with your project, I can not wait to see how a VN that deals with mature themes such as homophobia, self-harm and religious extremism from a college certified gay fiction expert like you will turn out like. I'm expecting a masterpiece.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will not post in this thread anymore, it has already veered enough into Off-Topic territory. (I'm really sorry @NadOtavias) If anyone would like to continue to discuss Yaoi, make a thread for that.

User avatar
Hearthrob
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:29 am
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#12 Post by Hearthrob » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:40 am

I'm a lesbian woman so I don't know much about BL, but I do know about having my sexuality co opted by straight folks, I'm a pro at it, so I'm going to add my two cents anyway. Fetishizing a minority not okay to do. Period. It doesn't matter if you're man or woman. It's a very shitty thing to write stories about gay men, make a profit out of those stories but then become defensive and make excuses when gay men tell you the stories are harming then.
All I want to get is a little bit... you know :wink:

User avatar
Aviala
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:40 am
Completed: Your Royal Gayness, Our War Everlasting, Love Bug
Organization: Lizard Hazard Games
Tumblr: lizardhazardgames
itch: aviala
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#13 Post by Aviala » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:58 am

@High I don't think that post was meant to attack you personally even if at one point your post was mentioned. I understand why you might have take in that way, but I think it's an bit over the top to quote the post line by line and assume everything was specifically in response to your post. Otherwise, I agree on what you said about enjoying problematic media -- it's ok to enjoy it as long as you understand that it can be harmful.

Generally, I definitely do agree that yaoi is problematic and harmful, but it's also true that it has helped queer people in the west. It's okay to acknowledge that while yaoi definitely causes issues, there have been some positive effects as well. In my experience, almost everyone who I grew up with who read yaoi as a teenager realized they were queer later on in life, and the ones who are cis/straight are allies. So in my experience yaoi has made people more aware of gay issues in the west. Maybe it's because in the west we have more LGBT media available -- yaoi was a gateway to less problematic queer content.

Again, I'm not saying BL isn't harmful because it definitely is, but it's effects in Japan and in other parts of the world seem to be different due to the surrounding culture. I can see how yaoi can cause (and does cause) massive problems when it's the only queer media widely available...

User avatar
Bertran
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 12:58 pm
Projects: Summer Paradise!
Deviantart: bertranway
Skype: bertranway
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#14 Post by Bertran » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm

Oh, what a discussion...

To be honest, I thought that "bara" genre means M/M with muscular appearance or something like that... Yeah?
I think every person understand "bara" in their own way... It is not exactly creating only by men...

User avatar
Imperf3kt
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 2837
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:05 am
Location: Your monitor
Contact:

Re: Is this yaoi?

#15 Post by Imperf3kt » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:38 pm

In my opinion, that is perception vs definition. You perceive it as that, but perception and definition have two different meanings.
Perception.
noun.
2. the way in which something is regarded, understood, or interpreted

Definition
noun
1 the act of defining, or of making something definite, distinct, or clear

So for example, I perceive the Wikipedia definition, as correct, and you perceive the Wikipedia definition, as a general guideline, because of stereotyping based on the media you've been exposed to.

It's kind of like gigawatt verses jiggawatt.
The pronunciation was "gi" "ga" "watt", until a certain movie actor mispronounced the word as "Ji" "ga" "watt" and an entire generation of people now mispronounce the word, but accept it as an alternative pronunciation.
Those people were exposed to the incorrect use of the word, so they came to believe it correct, despite it not being. But that exposure came from perception of how the word was pronounced, not the definition of it.


Words have a specific meaning. People confuse that and pass the incorrect meaning onto soneone else, much like a game of Chinese whispers, until a lot of people no longer know the actual meaning of the word, only what they think it means.
They've lost the definition, and substituted it with their perception.
Warning: May contain trace amounts of gratuitous plot.
pro·gram·mer (noun) An organism capable of converting caffeine into code.

Twitter

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users