Is Lemmesoft Dying

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#16 Post by ComputerArt.Club » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:44 pm

I think certainly there also used to be a lot more posts in services offered a year or two ago, and then rule 16 was introduced exactly a year ago ( viewtopic.php?f=58&t=47728) to stop the same people from posting day after day (or otherwise very frequently) in their personal thread in attempt to get more exposure. The new rule states you can only bump your thread once every two months unless someone else replied to it). Some threads were locked. Some of those people then left - some quite bitterly. The net effect was probably a reduction of posts on the forum, but that other posts (less commercial ones - like questions or discussions) got more exposure.

Also discord. And we have a facebook group too for discussions and promotion.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#17 Post by Katy133 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 pm

This kinda reminds me of a 2014 video by Mike Falzone about an article that discussed if Twitter was dead. Like PyTom put it, have changes in their life like graduating, changing careers, or getting married. So while there's dips in interaction, I think they'll also be rises from new people discovering Ren'Py and visual novels and joining the forum to talk to people with the same interests. Unless spam bots take over and the forum is no longer maintained, I don't think Lemmasoft is going any time soon.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#18 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:35 am

Well - Lemmasoft isn't the be-all-end-all of English language visual novels any more like it once was. And that's a good thing. Visual Novels are everywhere now. We've made it to mainstream! :wink:

I remember lurking on the forums back when it was BlueLemma using it for discussions of his games. You could count the number of English language "ren'ai" games on your hands and have fingers left over. If you happened to have stumbled onto that game genre, spoke English, and searched for more - you ended up on BlueLemma's website.

It became the only place you could talk about your love of the genre on the English-speaking internet, and soon fans tried their own hand at making their own visual novels, because it was easy to play through all that existed! But there was no dedicated tool or engine until PyTom created Ren'Py. Releases were few and far between, and because there were few devs - posts by creators like Mikey and BlueLemma were eagerly followed and discussed.

Part of the "problem" (if you even want to call it one) now is that there is just so MUCH out there. So many new releases, so many devs - the fan base has been fractured and its attention fought over. The whole community could chime in on a game when only 2 or 3 were released a year, but now it is hard to keep up with the flow. Like I said, I don't think this is really a problem - it is great! But it also leads to people like me being selective when chiming in on development discussions - I know most won't be completed and the majority of them don't interest me to begin with. I'm spoiled for choice.

Additionally, I've been a member on the forums now for 11 years. :shock: (Lurked for about 2-3 years before joining.) And with each new wave of members, some of the same discussions and topics come up that I have discussed for over a decade. So it isn't that I'm not interested ... it's just - how many times would you like to have the same discussion? I sometimes feel like it gets a little pretentious if I'm quoting myself or linking to posts from years ago. I'm sure there are other members that feel the same way. They see an interesting topic or discussion, but don't join in because they've had the same conversation half a dozen times - so the newer members feel like things aren't as lively because the regular members aren't posting.

EDIT: We've also had this same discussion before........like years ago......

And yeah, Katy133 is right that life changes can affect posting and engagement on the forum. In the time I've been on the forums, I've gone from a student to having a bachelor's degree, to working at a subsidiary studio for Paramount Pictures, to doing corporate design work, to freelancing. Sometimes I've been gone from the forums for months at a time. Life just happens sometimes.
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And hey, look at me. I just reactivated my account after many, many years, due to a spurious private message notification (cue conspiracy theories). Not regretting it for a moment, either, even as my one unfinished attempt at a VN remains the only one so far. Other people sure seem productive enough. If anything, my interest in the genre isn't what it should be. Maybe this year, if some new ideas work out.
I find it darkly hilarious that you are labeled as a Newbie, but joined years before me. :lol:

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#19 Post by nerupuff » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:56 am

I'd want to say that the forum generally isn't dying. Perhaps there is a decline in the use of it compared to previous years. I've lurked for quite a bit before I formally applied for an account on here, and I remember always seeing a slew of new content back then. But still, you would notice that there is still some forum activity, though majority of the people nowadays probably prefer to lurk (?).

The available statistics say this: Most users ever online was 46 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:53 am, which has been quite long ago. Sometimes, I wish I could see a huge number like this again, but as time passes, like the other people have remarked, things do change.

Most of the new posts usually come from discussions in the Completed Games and Works In Progress, which I can probably attribute to the rule of having actual discussion of the VN itself instead of bumping the post up to the top thread. Another active thread I am aware of is the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements thread, since a lot of people still do come there to ask forum veterans for coding help (like me, I usually post a question or two there) and it's still nice to see quick responses.

I feel as though majority of the community also exists outside LSF, considering that there is a Ren'Py Discord server. I can't say much about the activity there since I'm not a part of it, but I feel as though that server might have daily interactions with VN devs and such.

It may not be as lively as before, but there's still a decent amount of activity, so it's definitely not "dead" yet.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#20 Post by Sunlit-Dreamer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:21 pm

aliciarune wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:06 pm
I just ask because it seems not many people are on here compared to a few years ago. Also, have most of the moderators left? I know some retired from ren'py like the original creator, I just wasn't sure. And I know I've seen people post a thread introducing themselves, but many don't post again or rarely. Why I am asking is NaNo is coming up and I haven't really seen much about it here or on twitter from the people I follow. Is it because I'm too early? I really hope lemmesoft isn't dying. I miss when people engage each other with small talk or topics about visual novels. I mean, whether someone posts a new vn in the works in progress section or the completed games it seems no one or barely anyone takes interest. I know it's weird, but I like seeing people's games and what others think and how they help or encourage them.

Sorry if this is negative. I just ask because not many topics seem to around anymore....
Hello there, thought I should at least answer regarding Nano. It was a wee bit early when you posted, since a thread isn't usually posted until mid February or so. I glanced over at the Recruitment thread and there it is. Here's a link in case you haven't seen it yet.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=53763

There'll probably be more posts as we get closer to March. There didn't seem to be a recruiting channel in Discord, so there's a high chance you'll find a team there.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#21 Post by illuminate001 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:03 pm

Hi Aliciarune,

Honestly, I myself am guilty of not going onto LSF as much as I had and even not replying to threads like I used to. Lately, I attribute that to a new relationship, but I've noticed in general it seems LSF isn't as active as it used to be. I'm glad someone mentioned the elephant in the room tbh, as I've felt this for awhile, and for instance noticed, that in threads no one replies except for the creator to update their own thread.

I know alot of ppl are probably lurking but it definitely doesn't lead to the sense of community.

I attribute this to VN's being more visible now, and more successful. Alot of VN's are now commercial so instead of them being created by a suite of passionate creators who come across here as real people, alot of them seem to be made by faceless companies or teams, who are really just here to promote instead of engage the community. So what is the point of posting to a thread to not have your contribution acknowledged?

Sad.

I'd say that if people don't want to see LSF die, they may have to step out of their comfort zone and make a concerted effort, possibly even alittle forced, or push themselves, to take part more. If they don't want to see something they actually like die.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#22 Post by sendo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:22 am

I'd say the decline in activity is because of so many different platforms for discussion nowadays. There's Discord, which is pretty active (though it has more noise compared to the forum) I think new users, in general, prefer Discord since everyone uses it nowadays.

There's also Twitter and Tumblr dev blogs which people can follow to get development news as they break, effectively phasing out the WIP section of the forum. They're also better in terms of getting your project visible because of retweets and reblogs whereas updates in LSF don't propagate outside the forum.

I think there's also a decline in interest in Visual Novels in general? Now don't quote me on this since I have no data to back this up. But interests change over time. Some prolific devs years ago may not have the same passion for VNs today. Likewise, some players may have moved on. There's just so many games being released nowadays, there's always something to fill the void in the absence of new VNs.

I don't think LSF will completely die though. It mostly serves as a Q&A and Marketplace and I think it does it well. I'd definitely like to see more new blood and more activity in the forums but I'm really not getting my hopes up.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#23 Post by Chiagirl » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:07 am

I feel like forums in general are dying as most of the population seems to have migrated to social media platforms such has Facebook, Reddit, Discord, Instagram, Twitter, etc...it makes me sad as I vastly prefer the forum feel since you tend to get more in depth answers and better information searching, but most people seem to prefer the swift response times and instant gratification of social media sites. About half the forums I used in my childhood have already died, and I feel like most of the other half are on their way there.

As for people posting introductions and then leaving...it's pretty common for any forum. I've joined quite a few that I rarely if ever pop back into, this forum included. I expect it's probably worse with this type of forum as people will quickly figure out making a visual novel isn't as easy as it looks, and then give up once it proves more labor intensive than they were expecting. To add onto what others have said, I feel like people post less here because there are more other avenues to talk about VNs now. If you want to advertise or write a review for a game you can do it on Steam, Kickstarter, their Facebook page, or a wide variety of other places. I doubt people think about this place as much since many older members have likely left due to changes in life or interest, and there hasn't been as much of in influx of more permanent new users to replace them due to the competition social media provides.

I mostly lurk here to see new games that come out and occasionally take advantage of the free resources section, and I'm willing to bet a lot of other users do the same. As I've yet to seriously start to work on a VN myself, I generally don't feel I have much to add to discussions here as I'm more of a player than a creator. I also mostly use Steam to search for new VNs these days, so I really only pop back in here when Steam is lacking in new interesting content or I want to play something short and free. It's also harder for new users to want to become active in a forum that isn't terribly active itself. I use active to mean several new threads and replies a day in each section, which was the norm in most forums I frequented before the social media takeover happened. It's sort of a catch 22, users won't be active if the forum doesn't look active but the forum won't look active unless users are active and posting. It starts a downward spiral that most places fail to truly recover from.

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#24 Post by ComputerArt.Club » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 am

Chiagirl wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:07 am
I vastly prefer the forum feel since you tend to get more in depth answers and better information searching, but most people seem to prefer the swift response times and instant gratification of social media sites. About half the forums I used in my childhood have already died, and I feel like most of the other half are on their way there...
Yes, I really like the forum for finding, organizing and archiving solutions and discussions. That is the big benefit, it is organized. For this reason, I don't think it is likely to die completely, at least not in the near future. The core technical support section is important and cannot be replaced adequately by social media alternatives.

I also help to run and set up a Renpy Facebook group, and I really like that for the ease of posting images, videos and rich links. When ever I want to post images here it is a real pain, I have to resize them, upload to Google Photos, and use a website to individually convert the Google photos links for each picture to an acceptable link format. Facebook is just drag and drop. The forum architecture feels dated and inconvenient as a result, but at least it is organized. Facebook works well for sharing news, game updates, and discussing topics. Things that don't need to be archived and organized and are temporal in nature. It is also convenient for those who are already visiting Facebook regularly, it makes Facebook a bit more personalized. I like following a bunch of open source art software groups on Facebook, it is nice to have it all in one place and to see the overlap in the communities too.
Chiagirl wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:07 am
...It's sort of a catch 22, users won't be active if the forum doesn't look active but the forum won't look active unless users are active and posting. It starts a downward spiral that most places fail to truly recover from.
Yes, I remember a few times when I tried to start discussions in the general discussions/Japan/Game Engines section here but no one would respond, or I would go looking for active general discussion threads but find there were none. Then there are the other threads that go on forever, but people aren't really interacting much, just introducing an aspect of themselves and perhaps not even reading any of the other responses.

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#25 Post by xino_zero » Sun May 19, 2019 8:39 pm

I sure hope not since i have only just started my journey It would be a shame if i wasnt able to make any friends or comrades..

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#26 Post by illuminate001 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:37 pm

ComputerArt.Club wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 am
I also help to run and set up a Renpy Facebook group, and I really like that for the ease of posting images, videos and rich links. When ever I want to post images here it is a real pain, I have to resize them, upload to Google Photos, and use a website to individually convert the Google photos links for each picture to an acceptable link format. Facebook is just drag and drop. The forum architecture feels dated and inconvenient as a result, but at least it is organized. Facebook works well for sharing news, game updates, and discussing topics. Things that don't need to be archived and organized and are temporal in nature. It is also convenient for those who are already visiting Facebook regularly, it makes Facebook a bit more personalized. I like following a bunch of open source art software groups on Facebook, it is nice to have it all in one place and to see the overlap in the communities too.
I really what ComputerArt.Club is saying, and I think that despite LSF not feeling as vibrant or bustling as it once was, I do like the organization of it...particularly the way things like tutorials are archived and easy to find. I guess the equivalent of it on Discord, is pinned messages, but that would never work long term.

Perhaps what would help keep LSF alive in future, is if it found a way to bridge itself between what's great about it being a forum (archived posts/threads, organized, easily searchable etc.) and what makes things like FB popular for posting about things organically and temporal as CAC has said.
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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#27 Post by ComputerArt.Club » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:09 am

illuminate001 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:37 pm
ComputerArt.Club wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 am
I also help to run and set up a Renpy Facebook group, and I really like that for the ease of posting images, videos and rich links. When ever I want to post images here it is a real pain, I have to resize them, upload to Google Photos, and use a website to individually convert the Google photos links for each picture to an acceptable link format. Facebook is just drag and drop. The forum architecture feels dated and inconvenient as a result, but at least it is organized. Facebook works well for sharing news, game updates, and discussing topics. Things that don't need to be archived and organized and are temporal in nature. It is also convenient for those who are already visiting Facebook regularly, it makes Facebook a bit more personalized. I like following a bunch of open source art software groups on Facebook, it is nice to have it all in one place and to see the overlap in the communities too.
I really what ComputerArt.Club is saying, and I think that despite LSF not feeling as vibrant or bustling as it once was, I do like the organization of it...particularly the way things like tutorials are archived and easy to find. I guess the equivalent of it on Discord, is pinned messages, but that would never work long term.

Perhaps what would help keep LSF alive in future, is if it found a way to bridge itself between what's great about it being a forum (archived posts/threads, organized, easily searchable etc.) and what makes things like FB popular for posting about things organically and temporal as CAC has said.
I'm glad to hear someone relates on some level. Structure is a HUGE plus here, though ideally I think forums would be more convenient to use and add rich content to.

Do we even still need the image size limitations? Is there a way the images could be hosted by forums instead of with third party sites? Is there an example of a forum that has more modern features? Is it feasible (and desirable) to upgrade a such a site or do they just start from scratch with a site separate from the older one?

I think, whatever the case, this site and its content shouldn't just disappear if it is ever eventually replaced with something else. There is a lot of useful content here, even if some of it is dated it may still be useful to someone.

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#28 Post by Andredron » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:46 am

Stumbled upon this article a long time ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex ... s_written/


And I noticed that the 1% rule works in reality.

Well, so, the lemma does not die. Just her age of transition roughly. The old bones leave, the new one is in no hurry to come.

I myself had been watching the lemma for a year. Until one comrade explained how to register with him.

After he began to actively attend this forum. Published materials from the renpy Russian community.


I hope someone helped, and in general the community as a whole.

I wrote a book on renpy, the only one in the Russian community that explains many renpy subtleties for a Russian user. Old Russian community is very experienced programmers, but the trouble is they do not willingly share knowledge. And it turned out 2012 is a very active community, and a lot of oldies. 2016 old people grew up, abandoned renpy, the community was almost dead. 1 post question per week.

After writing a textbook every day a bunch of questions, a new backbone of the community appeared. A lot of people appeared that port a novel from nscripter, rugp .... to renpay from the old engine. The community is evolving.

As in the saying: if a samurai does not know what to do, he takes a step in front.

Everything is in your hands members of the renpy English community.
I know, I'm writing terribly in English.

I'm writing a Renpy textbook (in Russian). https://yadi.sk/d/ZX_DonP63USRru Update 22.06.18

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#29 Post by JBShields » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:51 am

It's the darn Discord chat rooms where most of the community is staying active. Don't give up on the forum, though! Post those jobs threads and VN updates. This is how we can reach those curious about VNs and don't want to deal with temporary timeline that a chat room has.

I still highly recommend posting about your completed projects here. Unfortunately, I know of at least two VN devs of good projects who still failed to make those posts here, yet they're on our Discord. I don't know why folks won't do such an easy step--especially if their VN is for sale.

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Re: Is Lemmesoft Dying

#30 Post by JBShields » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:57 am

Andredron wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:46 am
Stumbled upon this article a long time ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex ... s_written/


And I noticed that the 1% rule works in reality.

Well, so, the lemma does not die. Just her age of transition roughly. The old bones leave, the new one is in no hurry to come.

I myself had been watching the lemma for a year. Until one comrade explained how to register with him.

After he began to actively attend this forum. Published materials from the renpy Russian community.


I hope someone helped, and in general the community as a whole.

I wrote a book on renpy, the only one in the Russian community that explains many renpy subtleties for a Russian user. Old Russian community is very experienced programmers, but the trouble is they do not willingly share knowledge. And it turned out 2012 is a very active community, and a lot of oldies. 2016 old people grew up, abandoned renpy, the community was almost dead. 1 post question per week.

After writing a textbook every day a bunch of questions, a new backbone of the community appeared. A lot of people appeared that port a novel from nscripter, rugp .... to renpay from the old engine. The community is evolving.

As in the saying: if a samurai does not know what to do, he takes a step in front.

Everything is in your hands members of the renpy English community.
That's too bad they're so tight-lipped. Not sharing knowledge or contacts only hurts them imo. It's been my experience that usually helpful hands receive later help in return. That's what I love about VN Devs. We're willing to help each other out-- and in the long run it'll help the whole community produce better VNs. The industry is too small for VN Devs NOT to support each other--whether it's sharing about other projects, to recommending a good voice actor or artist, to giving each other tech support. It's good that you wrote a book on renpy.

Good--I love Russian projects. I usually read quite a few Russian VNs once they're translated to English.

My team plans to make a Russian translation as well, but we're no where finished on the build. [Our project is Twice Reborn]

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