Hetero is boring!

Forum organization and occasional community-building.
Forum rules
Questions about Ren'Py should go in the Ren'Py Questions and Announcements forum.
Message
Author
User avatar
carosene
Veteran
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:55 pm
Completed: That Cheap and Sacred Thing
Location: California
Contact:

Hetero is boring!

#1 Post by carosene » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:43 pm

Ok, I don't actually think that. But lately, I have been catching myself thinking that "Oh, this would've been so much more interesting if the protagonist was a lesbian..." and stuff like that.

A character who isn't straight automatically comes with all this great drama, like "Is the person I like homosexual? And if" er, let's make it a guy, "he is, would he like me? And what will my parents do when they find out I'm gay? And even if he does like me and we go out, then what will people say? Will everyone close to us reject us? Will we be persecuted?"

I mean, you can try to add some forbidden love to hetero, but let's be honest, Romeo and Juliet has been done. A million times over.

And even if the creators don't go for the forbidden love angle, the fact that the main characters aren't straight makes them a lot more interesting. I think creators have to be really creative with a hetero couple to make them equally interesting.

Anyone...
Agree? Disagree? Think hetero is awesome? Think hetero is ew?
Image
A Complete Kinetic Novel
Blog DA

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: that magical diary sequel, that vampire-raising game
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#2 Post by papillon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:58 pm

see also 'HetIsEw' :)

I agree that it's *easier* to get the angst quotient up with a non-het couple... however, 'easy' angst also gets boring. It's pretty tiring to deal with the SAME baggage all the time. Not to mention that some fans of non-het relationships would like to see some happy fantasy gay love and not just angst misery disowned blah.

Forbidden love excites people. There's plenty of other 'forbidden' relationships to drawn on... underage love, incest, cross-species (that's human-ogre, not human-dog!), teacher/student, adultery, poly...

User avatar
MaiMai
Yandere
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:04 pm
Completed: [Phase Shift]
Projects: [ None ]
Organization: Paper Stars
Tumblr: maiscribbles
Deviantart: maiscribble
Location: USA, Southern California
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#3 Post by MaiMai » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Eh, I'm a little biased since I'm not a fan of slashing of any kind and I think hetero love can be full of variety. Subtle, but still full of variety. Anyways, like for everything else when it comes to storytelling, it all depends on the execution.
Image COMMISSIONS AVAILABLE (check Tumblr sidebar)

User avatar
Koveras
Regular
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:15 pm
Projects: The King's Dragon (TBA)
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#4 Post by Koveras » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:23 pm

I don't think that het is necessarily ew but I do agree that homosexual relationships invoke more drama thanks to forbidden fruit element. In fact, I'd go further and admit that I feel bored to death with heterosexual romance dramas because their male characters usually disgust me and offend my male pride. I do not intend to sound chauvinistic but a guy gotta keep his emotions at bay and use cold logic to prevent conflicts and, thus, drama in lasting relationships. At least, in the stories that I choose to read. :mrgreen: The function of a heterosexual relationship is to form a stable two-person union for the purpose of procreation of the human species, so why all the fuss about love and feelings? Call me a cynic if you must...

Homosexual relationships, on the other hand, subvert that function in favor of purely emotional attachment. Homosexual pairings do not owe anything to the society and are hence shunned by it. Ergo, a homosexual relationship can achieve higher levels of drama without compromising the functionality, thus avoiding my rejection. I admit that I mean primarily lesbian relationships, since I'm not a big fan of yaoi (though I did enjoy a few titles), but I guess if I were a girl, I'd feel the same way about gay pairings. Long story short: I generally find yuri stories easier and more interesting to read than heterosexual romance. Though, of course, I also think that romance is like a spice: it gives food unique flavor but it cannot be consumed on its own. In other words, I find pure romance stories in general pretty boring, hetero or not. :)

Lastly, everything above concerns only fictional characters and stories. I believe that in real life, everyone has the intrinsic right to love anyone they like, same sex or not, and it's not up to me to judge and comment on their private lives.
"Yo, Buddy, you still alive?"

User avatar
Deji
Cheer Idol; Not Great at Secret Identities
Posts: 1592
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:38 pm
Projects: http://bit.ly/2lieZsA
Organization: Sakevisual, Apple Cider, Mystery Parfait
Tumblr: DejiNyucu
Deviantart: DejiNyucu
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#5 Post by Deji » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:41 pm

I wish less of the gay-centric stories were less angsty, less set on everybody-and-their-dog-is-gay paradises and with less smut!
I'd be more willing to read gay stories without all that, lol.

I like het romance, though, not because it's interesting or deep (normally it's not) but because I want to get those "Awwww <3" feelings when I relate to the heroine (because I'm a 95% het girl myself).
It's like porn you just watch/read for the sake of getting horny xD

For non romance-centric stories (stories where the focus is somewhere else, even if the main characters is a couple), I think homosexual relationships are pretty interesting for the cultural and social factors, and the hardships they might have to overcome just to live in peace with the person they love. Though I think you can make straigh couples interesting andcomplicated (or StraightxGay, or StraightxBi couples)
Image
Tumblr | Twitter
Forever busy :')
When drawing something, anything, USE REFERENCES!! Use your Google-fu!
Don't trust your memory, and don't blindly trust what others teach you either.
Research, observation, analysis, experimentation and practice are the key! (:

User avatar
Wintermoon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 701
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 3:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#6 Post by Wintermoon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:41 pm

I like homo relationships and I like angst, but the (admittedly realistic) angst caused by being homo in a homophobic society is just a boring cliché to me.

The problem with hetero relationships is that they come with tons of baggage. Society has already written the script for both roles; all that's left is for the actors to play their part. This is made worse by how my own biases cause me to judge male and female characters by different standards.

Homo relationships are (in theory at least) symmetrical. Any asymmetrical aspects come from the personalities of the characters, not from the roles society has imposed on the characters. I like that.

User avatar
maybox
Newbie
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#7 Post by maybox » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:44 pm

Deji wrote:less angsty, less set on everybody-and-their-dog-is-gay paradises and with less smut!
I'd be more willing to read gay stories without all that, lol.
I agree (tho I'm a sucker for angst)
Also, I wish more gay manga/anime/whatever characters were over 20. I'm 'only' 18 myself, but I have a hard time relating to most fictional teen romances. For some reason I almost exclusively go AWWW over middle age(30-60) gay stories LOL

User avatar
Hime
Veteran
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:46 pm
Projects: Project Nattsu, Take Rena Home
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#8 Post by Hime » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:01 pm

Honestly, I think gay love in entertainment is pretty... saturated. In the real world, not everyone has a problem being of a sexual minority - and it does not have to be a problem, unlike in the TV and such. Not to mention that people of all sexualities can have problems accepting their own feelings and being accepted. No romantical endeavour is completely free of obstacles.

You say Romeo and Juliet has been done a million times, but I would love to see more works that do not depict homosexuality from such a biased, out of date and done-a-million-times-already standpoint. It might even enforce the stereotypes about how it is difficult and how everyone is homophobic, which does not really inspire young, unsure homosexuals to express their sexuality. The assumption of homophobia breeds homophobia, and I have seen this happen in real life.

And for the aspect of interesting, I guess it is interesting if you are used to thinking that most people are straight, or if homosexuality is considered a crime in your culture or religion. As for myself, well, I see it as 100% normal and everyday, so uhh... this whole thread looks a bit silly in my eyes. I try to write love between two people, no matter what kind, as love, not as the way society and media brand the love between those kinds.

Anyway, love is awesome. Regardless of genders.
Image

User avatar
F.I.A
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:49 pm
Projects: Winter Shard, EVE, Hyperion
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#9 Post by F.I.A » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:32 pm

This and this for all your need. If you are really that desperate, try writing a story yourself.

And seriously, the example the OP gave is nothing but ridiculous. Why should the homo be concerned about others' view on his/her homosexual life? Or why should the homo be bothered whether the other is a homo or hetero? Does that mean the homo knows that it is not meant to be? If there is anyone who should be bothered, it is the hetero he/she confessed the feeling to. What you proposed is nothing but a closet homo.

Also, about this Romeo and Juliet being overdone, just how often you see two died for love? Or you are like those before you who just based their thoughts after playing a few "good" visual novels with main characters who are straight?
「通りすがりのメーカだ。覚えとけ。」

----------
Winter shard
Image
WIP: Hyperion(Trace unknown), ?????(Progressing)

adrix89
Regular
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#10 Post by adrix89 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:00 am

If you think hetero and homo is boring and want to spice things up look no further then...
Deus Ex Machina potion of Gender Bender!
After all what can be more entertaining than the total inversion of ones world and principles!
I currently Synfig and then I Ren'py,I wish I could Construct but its not Linuxed yet,I Blend some and for my next project I'll Intensty the Syntensty

User avatar
papillon
Arbiter of the Internets
Posts: 4030
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:37 am
Completed: lots; see website!
Projects: that magical diary sequel, that vampire-raising game
Organization: Hanako Games
Tumblr: hanakogames
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#11 Post by papillon » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:25 am

Why should the homo be concerned about others' view on his/her homosexual life?
Because unless you're independently wealthy, other people's views do affect you? In some cultures and some time periods, being revealed as gay would cost you your job. Possibly even your home, if the landlord Hates Gay. And many people have huge angst over their parents not approving of them - and many people's parents won't stop trying to interfere in their life EVEN IF you've told them to shove it. (No, not me, but I know at least one person whose parents will not stop jerking her around over her 'lifestyle'.)

People get beaten up for being gay, even now, even in the US. Not all the time, obviously! Not everybody, obviously! But it makes an easy source of drama and conflict.

User avatar
PrettySammy09
Veteran
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#12 Post by PrettySammy09 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:25 pm

There are plenty of forbidden romances you can do in a hetero situation. A mixed race couple in an old fashioned society anyone? It used to be illegal for a white woman/man to marry a black woman/man. In America. I'm not talking some third world nation in the middle of Asia. That's full of drama, in my humble opinion. What about kids from rival schools? Or one person in the couple has a terminal disease? One person is extremely rich while the other is working class - society class big time. What about differing religions?

I'm just saying that if you really sit down to think, there are plenty of dramatic situations you can come up with - even with hetero couples. There are romantic comedies made every year with various types of romantic drama involved between hetero couples.

Just to slap two gay characters together and call it a forbidden fruit romance is a bit lame, imho. "Hmmm, I can't come up with a dramatic story that hasn't been done - oh well, being gay'll work!" Unfortunately, the forbidden fruit gay story has been done to death as well. (Brokeback Mountain anyone?)

A story between two people who are gay is just great! But it needs to have more dimension other than "we're gay" or it'll come off as flat and even, in some cases, offensive. How would you feel if your hetero relationship was so overly simplified? (I've seen it in theaters in some drastically bad romantic comedies - and believe me, I'm offended that whoever wrote the movie assumes that men are nothing but sex driven children and women are nothing but nagging cry-babies who just want someone to love them.)

Also, I don't really read a lot of man-on-man romance, simply because I...well...this is going to sound lame, but I feel left out. ;__; When two guys are screwing each other, I feel so invasive (even if it's completely fictional). I'm just like "okay. I'll...I'll let you guys just keep doing what you're doing! And I'll...stand over here...watching... Hey, I've got boobs! Do you care? Oh yeah, you don't. Nevermind...don't mind me."

User avatar
Hime
Veteran
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:46 pm
Projects: Project Nattsu, Take Rena Home
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#13 Post by Hime » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:28 pm

PrettySammy09 wrote:Also, I don't really read a lot of man-on-man romance, simply because I...well...this is going to sound lame, but I feel left out. ;__; When two guys are screwing each other, I feel so invasive (even if it's completely fictional). I'm just like "okay. I'll...I'll let you guys just keep doing what you're doing! And I'll...stand over here...watching... Hey, I've got boobs! Do you care? Oh yeah, you don't. Nevermind...don't mind me."
Funnily though, I have heard this precisely is the charm point in yaoi for a lot of adolescent girls: when one is not confident about her romantic and sexual, adult side yet, being left out in that fashion can feel a lot more safe than feeling involved. Some young girls also prefer boy's love because they see that in a romance that features a female or two, they should be like that character, and when they see themselves being inferior to the girl in any way, it makes them feel uncomfortable about their still growing selves. That way, yaoi and boy's love let them explore adult feeling in a safe, and from their female viewpoint, completely unrealistic environment. :) This is probably also the reason so many girls grow out of it: as they mature sexually, they start to have feelings similar to yours and switch over to (or at least quit hating) romantica/erotica that features girls.

Of course this is not the case with everyone and many mature, sexually confident women like yaoi, but it happens with a lot of people and is probably one of the biggest reasons boy's love is so popular these days.
Image

User avatar
MaiMai
Yandere
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:04 pm
Completed: [Phase Shift]
Projects: [ None ]
Organization: Paper Stars
Tumblr: maiscribbles
Deviantart: maiscribble
Location: USA, Southern California
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#14 Post by MaiMai » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:09 pm

PrettySammy09 wrote:There are plenty of forbidden romances you can do in a hetero situation. A mixed race couple in an old fashioned society anyone? It used to be illegal for a white woman/man to marry a black woman/man. In America. I'm not talking some third world nation in the middle of Asia. That's full of drama, in my humble opinion. What about kids from rival schools? Or one person in the couple has a terminal disease? One person is extremely rich while the other is working class - society class big time. What about differing religions?

I'm just saying that if you really sit down to think, there are plenty of dramatic situations you can come up with - even with hetero couples. There are romantic comedies made every year with various types of romantic drama involved between hetero couples.

Just to slap two gay characters together and call it a forbidden fruit romance is a bit lame, imho. "Hmmm, I can't come up with a dramatic story that hasn't been done - oh well, being gay'll work!" Unfortunately, the forbidden fruit gay story has been done to death as well. (Brokeback Mountain anyone?)

A story between two people who are gay is just great! But it needs to have more dimension other than "we're gay" or it'll come off as flat and even, in some cases, offensive. How would you feel if your hetero relationship was so overly simplified? (I've seen it in theaters in some drastically bad romantic comedies - and believe me, I'm offended that whoever wrote the movie assumes that men are nothing but sex driven children and women are nothing but nagging cry-babies who just want someone to love them.)

Also, I don't really read a lot of man-on-man romance, simply because I...well...this is going to sound lame, but I feel left out. ;__; When two guys are screwing each other, I feel so invasive (even if it's completely fictional). I'm just like "okay. I'll...I'll let you guys just keep doing what you're doing! And I'll...stand over here...watching... Hey, I've got boobs! Do you care? Oh yeah, you don't. Nevermind...don't mind me."
Ah, when you put it that way, I completely agree. :) I think that's what I was trying to convey, but you basically put it down better than I could.
Image COMMISSIONS AVAILABLE (check Tumblr sidebar)

User avatar
carosene
Veteran
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:55 pm
Completed: That Cheap and Sacred Thing
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Hetero is boring!

#15 Post by carosene » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:01 pm

13 responses...I guess I should've expected that... ^-^;;

A lot of people are sounding defensive... maybe I should've phrased my prompt a bit differently...

And let's keep in mind that we're only talking about stuff in the media...
PrettySammy09 wrote:There are plenty of forbidden romances you can do in a hetero situation. A mixed race couple in an old fashioned society anyone? It used to be illegal for a white woman/man to marry a black woman/man. In America. I'm not talking some third world nation in the middle of Asia. That's full of drama, in my humble opinion. What about kids from rival schools? Or one person in the couple has a terminal disease? One person is extremely rich while the other is working class - society class big time. What about differing religions?

I'm just saying that if you really sit down to think, there are plenty of dramatic situations you can come up with - even with hetero couples. There are romantic comedies made every year with various types of romantic drama involved between hetero couples.
Loving v. Virginia, I remember that one. You have very excellent points. And I agree with you one hundred percent! There are lots of interesting ways to write a heterosexual story! I'm not trying to say that just because it's heterosexual it's boring. (Remember? I disowned the title of the thread in the first sentance.)
But my point is people have to, as you say, sit down and think of dramatic situations. And I'm all for people thinking. I'm a big fan of thinking.

But a lot of people don't think. And as I sit there, and I read an average story or manga, or watch an average anime, or play an average VN, all of which a central theme is romance, I think "An easy way to make this a lot more interesting would be if they made character XY an XX, and considered it seriously." The fact that this thought struck me is what prompted me to make this thread, and I was wondering if anyone thought something similar.
F.I.A wrote: And seriously, the example the OP gave is nothing but ridiculous. Why should the homo be concerned about others' view on his/her homosexual life? Or why should the homo be bothered whether the other is a homo or hetero? Does that mean the homo knows that it is not meant to be? If there is anyone who should be bothered, it is the hetero he/she confessed the feeling to. What you proposed is nothing but a closet homo.
Alright, I proposed a very narrow-minded intro. But my point was that that kind of drama was not easily repeated with a heterosexual couple.
F.I.A wrote:If you are really that desperate, try writing a story yourself.
NOOO! Not the classic "Why don't you do it better" retort! I am defeated! *evaporates*
Ok, seriously. Shall we stay on topic rather than make assumptions about what I feel or what I have written?
Koveras wrote:I don't think that het is necessarily ew but I do agree that homosexual relationships invoke more drama thanks to forbidden fruit element.
I don't think it's ew either. Maybe I should rephrase my prompt... (But then all the lovely arguments defeating my prompt wouldn't make sense...)
Koveras wrote:Homosexual relationships, on the other hand, subvert that function in favor of purely emotional attachment. Homosexual pairings do not owe anything to the society and are hence shunned by it. Ergo, a homosexual relationship can achieve higher levels of drama without compromising the functionality, thus avoiding my rejection. I admit that I mean primarily lesbian relationships, since I'm not a big fan of yaoi (though I did enjoy a few titles), but I guess if I were a girl, I'd feel the same way about gay pairings. Long story short: I generally find yuri stories easier and more interesting to read than heterosexual romance. Though, of course, I also think that romance is like a spice: it gives food unique flavor but it cannot be consumed on its own. In other words, I find pure romance stories in general pretty boring, hetero or not. :)
Yay! Someone agrees with me and sounds smart!
I hadn't thought of the "function in society vs. emotional attachment" side of it, that's a really good point.
Image
A Complete Kinetic Novel
Blog DA

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users