What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

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Lightworker
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What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#1 Post by Lightworker »

Basically, what pisses you off about these new romantic OELVNs so much? I am speaking generally here within this particular genre.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#2 Post by Mutive »

Oh boy...there are a number here that I despise:

1. The "destined" lovers. I get how infatuation can feel that way, but it's a problematic trope.

2. The "we show each other love by hating on each other". Teasing is fine, but when it gets to the point of negging, it's icky. And if it gets to the point where it's abusive, it's REALLY problematic.

3. The "everyone loves the mc despite being a "completely ordinary" character (who has nothing in common with any of the love interests because he/she is a total blank slate).

4. The "keep giving them presents and they'll love you despite how otherwise obnoxious you are to them" mechanic that's (unfortunately) pretty common.

5. Shy, modest, virginal girls are good while sexy girls are bad.

6. The heroine falls for any dude who rescues her. (No matter what they might or might not have in common.)
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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#3 Post by skybeargames »

Wow Mutive, I just went over your list a couple of times against examples and it fits so many other media too :D like YA and romance in general

(furtively takes notes for her own game)

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#4 Post by felix »

The resident jerk being a viable romantic option to pursue. That perpetuates a harmful stereotype.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#5 Post by Mutive »

skybeargames wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:27 am Wow Mutive, I just went over your list a couple of times against examples and it fits so many other media too :D like YA and romance in general
Yep, a lot of these tropes are pretty pervasive. (Which makes me think some people must LOVE them. But I clearly don't.)
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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#6 Post by skybeargames »

felix wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:36 am The resident jerk being a viable romantic option to pursue. That perpetuates a harmful stereotype.
Ugh, yes, I hate that. There's a fine line between someone being aloof, cool, detached, and just straight up being rude, and I feel like it's really hard to get right.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#7 Post by Renpie »

Mutive wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:47 pm Oh boy...there are a number here that I despise:

1. The "destined" lovers. I get how infatuation can feel that way, but it's a problematic trope.

2. The "we show each other love by hating on each other". Teasing is fine, but when it gets to the point of negging, it's icky. And if it gets to the point where it's abusive, it's REALLY problematic.

3. The "everyone loves the mc despite being a "completely ordinary" character (who has nothing in common with any of the love interests because he/she is a total blank slate).

4. The "keep giving them presents and they'll love you despite how otherwise obnoxious you are to them" mechanic that's (unfortunately) pretty common.

5. Shy, modest, virginal girls are good while sexy girls are bad.

6. The heroine falls for any dude who rescues her. (No matter what they might or might not have in common.)
Most of this is because of simplicity.
Authors probably dont want to create multiple characters to present for the mc and then write them off.
Stories are usually what happened, not what might happen ie simulating real life.
Giving presents, rescuing and girls being virgin are anime tropes, mc rescuing some random person and moving on does feel like a filler to the story, giving presents can be simply a game mechanic, give present, get likes.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#8 Post by Mutive »

Renpie wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:00 pm

Most of this is because of simplicity.
Authors probably dont want to create multiple characters to present for the mc and then write them off.
Stories are usually what happened, not what might happen ie simulating real life.
Giving presents, rescuing and girls being virgin are anime tropes, mc rescuing some random person and moving on does feel like a filler to the story, giving presents can be simply a game mechanic, give present, get likes.
Oh, I understand a lot of *why* this happens. I just don't particularly like it.

For instance the present/spend time with the character to get them to love you makes perfect sense within game mechanics. You don't want the players annoyed that, just because they did X, they won't be able to get with character Y. (Or because they said one wrong thing in a conversation or whatever.)

But it can also come off as *super* creepy.

e.g. the super sweet, lovey dovey character comes off as pretty hypocritical if she *still* falls in love with my character even after he slaughters several bus loads of orphans. ("Isn't it nice that a few pairs of shoes makes you forget about my child murder?" OR "Sure, I disagree with you about every single thing, but since I kept hanging out with you, I guess it's fate that we're together.")
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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#9 Post by gekiganwing »

1. Main characters seem shallow. The love interest who likes music never has other hobbies. The romantic rival stays buffoonish.

2. No external conflict. Your story doesn't need fight scenes or antagonists. But it can help to include a goal or an obstacle for the main characters.

3. The plot and characters seem like the hand-me-down versions of ones from published fiction. Think about how to manage your influences. Get into stories from different media formats, eras, regions, etc.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#10 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Mutive wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:47 pm Oh boy...there are a number here that I despise:

1. The "destined" lovers. I get how infatuation can feel that way, but it's a problematic trope.

2. The "we show each other love by hating on each other". Teasing is fine, but when it gets to the point of negging, it's icky. And if it gets to the point where it's abusive, it's REALLY problematic.

3. The "everyone loves the mc despite being a "completely ordinary" character (who has nothing in common with any of the love interests because he/she is a total blank slate).

4. The "keep giving them presents and they'll love you despite how otherwise obnoxious you are to them" mechanic that's (unfortunately) pretty common.

5. Shy, modest, virginal girls are good while sexy girls are bad.

6. The heroine falls for any dude who rescues her. (No matter what they might or might not have in common.)
Really well said.

Related to #3, I really despise when it is impossible to not end up with someone. I.e. I want to be able to totally fail as the protagonist. If I am an unlikeable jerk who makes no effort, I hate being handed a 'consolation' romance (usually the childhood friend) as a default fallback.

Related is another thing I hate, but seems really common in the genre: Mandatory dates with all the romance partners. An example is were the game makes you go on two or three outings with each love interest before they let you make a choice. I know it is done so the player can "get to know" the love interests, but that can be done so much better than setting up mandatory scenes with each one. I hate being made to play through a long scene or event with a character I have zero interest in or actively dislike.

It wasn't a visual novel, but I recently saw a show that brilliantly subverted #1 and #6 and I didn't realize what a breath of fresh air it was going to feel like until I saw it. It was great, and hopefully a good lesson to young people that watched the show.
gekiganwing wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:38 pm 2. No external conflict. Your story doesn't need fight scenes or antagonists. But it can help to include a goal or an obstacle for the main characters.
Yes. Thank you.

I know Slice-of-Life is a thing, but important stakes still happen in life!

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#11 Post by Mutive »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:25 pm

Related to #3, I really despise when it is impossible to not end up with someone. I.e. I want to be able to totally fail as the protagonist. If I am an unlikeable jerk who makes no effort, I hate being handed a 'consolation' romance (usually the childhood friend) as a default fallback.

Ooof, yeah, that's one I hate, too.

I love being given the opportunity to fail. (It's pretty entertaining to play someone who's despised by all of the other characters for good reason.) But even more than that, if I *am* given the option to fail, I want to actually fail. There's something decidedly creepy about the childhood friend (or whoever) seeing the good in my character if options allow me to make the character a person who literally has no good aspects.

(Although I'm now tempted to write a game in which the childhood friend is also an awful, awful person or such a low self esteem sad sack that this somehow all makes sense within the story...)
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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#12 Post by papillon »

these new romantic OELVNs
new?
There's something decidedly creepy about the childhood friend (or whoever) seeing the good in my character if options allow me to make the character a person who literally has no good aspects.
I can't think of any games in which I'm allowed to choose to be a completely unlikeable asshole and yet characters love me for no reason. (Exception being games where you don't *choose* to be unlikeable because the protagonist is 100% worthless all the time; that's a specific fetish)

I can think of a lot more games where you get a bad ending for being a mildly social human being and actually saying hello to more than one person in the entire world, therefore failing to demonstrate sufficient devotion to any love interest and getting a bad end. I hate it when you have to be 'faithful' to one option from the start of the game in order to progress. This is more commonly a Japanese thing though in my experience rather than an EVN thing.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#13 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

papillon wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:16 pm
There's something decidedly creepy about the childhood friend (or whoever) seeing the good in my character if options allow me to make the character a person who literally has no good aspects.
I can't think of any games in which I'm allowed to choose to be a completely unlikeable asshole and yet characters love me for no reason. (Exception being games where you don't *choose* to be unlikeable because the protagonist is 100% worthless all the time; that's a specific fetish)

I can think of a lot more games where you get a bad ending for being a mildly social human being and actually saying hello to more than one person in the entire world, therefore failing to demonstrate sufficient devotion to any love interest and getting a bad end. I hate it when you have to be 'faithful' to one option from the start of the game in order to progress. This is more commonly a Japanese thing though in my experience rather than an EVN thing.
Yeah, that's usually what happens in the those VNs - you don't necessarily CHOOSE for the MC to be an unlikeable, terrible person, the game just makes it happen. "A Drug that Makes You Dream" made the MC a spineless coward who participates in bullying a suicidal classmate out of peer pressure even though he likes her (supposedly) and I have never wanted to reach through my screen and strangle a fictional character to death more than I did that MC.

And I totally agree on that 'totally faithful' trope in Japanese VNs. The whole cultural thing where popular idols cannot be seen to have love interests or boyfriends in public (so they aren't unfaithful to their fans) just drives me nuts.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#14 Post by Renpie »

Most hated is obviously that you cannot romance the best girl. Usually she's the main villain or something similar.

Game I'm playing right now has such character, I hope she's an option later on.

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Re: What are some things you hate about romantic Visual Novels??

#15 Post by Chronocide »

Lightworker wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:56 am Basically, what pisses you off about these new romantic OELVNs so much? I am speaking generally here within this particular genre.
Minigames which punish failure is probably my least favorite function. Especially when the minigame depends on precise hand-to-eye coordination, facts from outside of the game, or real timers.

Even more annoying if the game has a paywall to bypass the minigames, as that makes it clear that they are aware that their minigames are annoying and that your irritation is intentional. I've uninstalled otherwise amazing quality games because they added minigames in patch. I'm not here to play tetris...

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