Work in Progress Rules Change?

[VenusEclipse]

I was always a bit surprised to see that there were not many rules when I joined. Many other forums have a long list of rules which do give me a headache. I was amazed that this place wasn't full of spammed posts by now due to the number of members, and some members not knowing what spam posts are (maybe there are a lot and I miss them by not reading every thread). So I just decided this place is running fine without them because it's up and running fine with a number of years behind it.

I'm probably guilty for posting those spam-mish posts as well somewhere if I look. :3.
You can always remind people of "proper posting" if you like if those "I agree" and "looks good" posts are giving you a headache.

I like the idea of the recruitment section. It is tough to see who is recruiting sometimes. Not everyone changes the title to their topic when they want to recruit after their artists are MIA.

I am fine with any change, or leaving it as it is. Though of course some people will be annoyed about the changes. And as it is right now, there are people who want it to change. We can't satisfy everyone.
So then, if you all think the forum will be better in the long run after implementing any changes. If you do change it, it's going to be tough in the beginning. It'll take any dedicated person to actually see it through, maybe with recruitment of moderators.

[Aleema]

I wonder, is this decision fueled by rising bandwidth costs, or just a general distaste for the color of posts in the WIP forum?

If it is about saving resources, then I am behind it.
If it is about discouraging certain types of posts, I am against it.

I say this because I see nothing wrong with the WIP forum as it is now. Is the problem that it's too hard to moderate because of the constant stream of updates? Is it because it's seemingly breeding bad games, or bad game-makers? I'm a bit loss as to what this crack-down is about. What triggered it, specifically? Because I see supporting others' projects is an important part of encouraging development.

Lemma Soft has become a home to amateur VN makers (and the minimum required age to post in this forum is 13). Silencing these game-makers will likely slow the popularity growth of Ren'Py, and visual novels in general. Because, often, the only milestone a game here will ever reach is the development stage. (I support not posting until there has been progress, but I find nothing wrong with posting concept art.) And "I like it" posts are sometimes the only fuel for some game-makers, especially new ones. (Whatever floats their boat, I don't care.) To some people, this is just a hobby. Is that what you're really trying to eliminate? Because that would do more harm to the genre than help it. But I have no statistical proof.

It's natural to want to have a specific creative environment (because artists are fickle), so I understand why you are worried about the state of WIP. You're a really cool guy, PyTom, and you've have the most level-head of all the moderators/admins I've ever been exposed to, but this forum decision seems a bit ... well, unlike you. It's a bit elitist, if indeed this is about censoring posts you personally don't like. I don't really see any posts on this forum (besides the rules) as being forced to be read?

In summary, I'm against drawing a line as to what is and isn't appropriate feedback/updates on a project. It's purely objective, and strictly enforcing it will be like [insert form of oppressive government you hate]. Yes, I went there. But I still love you, PyTom.

Any solution to this problem (whatever it may be) should be, in my opinion, less about censoring and more about filtering. I'm on board for rule changes, but the physical deletion of posts is going to go on my for-the-love-of-god-don't list. Splitting it into fifty different forums will just cause more confusion (people have a hard enough time finding where to post as it is ...).

A problem I foresee with a recruitment forum is that recruitment threads tend to blur into a general support thread almost immediately. If you don't want to help, you'll just comment on the project. You could try creating a rule about posting in these threads, but that would require an active moderator. And after you get help for your project, the thread just sits there, open for more comments. Also, another need for an active moderator, to lock these threads or move them to a Showcase forum. So basically, you're going to need an authority to enforce your new rules, if it honestly bothers you enough to be tempted to apocalypse the forum.

[PyTom]

We're not in danger of running out of server resources.

What's kind of worrying me is that, as people get more focused on specific projects, we're kinda losing the sort of collegiality the forum is known for. It used to be, that you could read every post on the forum, and be interested in every one.

The forum interface encourages this, by asking people to click on the "View unread posts" button, and by highlighting the forums with unread posts. (Is it just me that reads everything?)

Nowadays, it seems to me that a lot of the posts in the WiP forum are getting to be mighty specific, to one game or another. They'll be irrelevant to people who aren't following a specific project closely. And that, I think, is something of a problem, as it kind of destroys our unity as a community.

At the same time, co-locating WiP (and even, to some extent, completed games) with the game-development forums seems kind of limiting to the communities surrounding individual games. You don't see Ripples cosplayers in the same way you see Katawa Shoujo cosplayers. Now, part of that is the scale of the projects - but here, we're sort of discouraging developing the community to that scale.

While the rules I proposed above might help, I don't relish the thought of enforcing them. I'm already at the point where Ren'Py and the forums are actually eating into the time I spend actually playing games, which isn't a great state to be in. Also, there isn't really much control I have other than hitting the delete button, and I don't like hitting the delete button, except for obviously-spam posts. (I delete more accounts than individual messages.)

Thinking a bit more about this, an alternate solution might be to create an LSF Annex. This would be a second board devoted to works in progress, and perhaps to more in-depth discussion of completed games. Recruitment and and announcements could go here, but most other game-specific discussion would live on the annex.

While the Annex might have rules as to when a game can have threads, and perhaps even when a game could have its own section, I suspect these rules could be made fairly objective. (Perhaps factoring things like community size and demonstrated progress into account.)

In this model, the LSF would then become a sort of college of game-makers*, while the annex provides a place where games can form a nucleus of community around them. I _think_ it's win-win, at least once people start visiting the Annex. It's also a rules-light solution, which I think is a more stable thing.

* Of which I'm the grounds-keeper.

[lordcloudx]

I've noticed huge changes in the forums since I joined here, of course. (Some of them I just couldn't stomach personally.)

I don't think LSF is too bad as it is right now though. There's been a change in demographics, I think, which accounts for the less collegiate tone of a majority of posts here recently. That aside, I've noticed there's almost no trolling and a lot less aggressive behavior nowadays, which I think is a step in the right direction.

As for community unity... well, I think that concept is eventually going to be lost as the forum grows. I liked it the way it was way back then, but I don't think there's any way to bring that sort of unity back without losing the current LSF userbase. Also, I'm not even sure if it's the same type of community unity that you're looking for. Personally, I feel that the new active members are sorta different from my own idealized LSF, but that doesn't mean they should be made to feel any less important to the community in general.

Lemma Soft has become a home to amateur VN makers (and the minimum required age to post in this forum is 13). Silencing these game-makers will likely slow the popularity growth of Ren'Py, and visual novels in general. Because, often, the only milestone a game here will ever reach is the development stage. (I support not posting until there has been progress, but I find nothing wrong with posting concept art.) And "I like it" posts are sometimes the only fuel for some game-makers, especially new ones. (Whatever floats their boat, I don't care.) To some people, this is just a hobby. Is that what you're really trying to eliminate? Because that would do more harm to the genre than help it. But I have no statistical proof.

I concur with this.

At the same time, co-locating WiP (and even, to some extent, completed games) with the game-development forums seems kind of limiting to the communities surrounding individual games. You don't see Ripples cosplayers in the same way you see Katawa Shoujo cosplayers. Now, part of that is the scale of the projects - but here, we're sort of discouraging developing the community to that scale.

Is that really such a bad thing though? Is that kind of popularity really all that desirable? Personally, I don't think so.

[Samu-kun]

Oh yeah, now that Pytom mentions it, I do remember a time when people talked about general interest matters in WIP threads back in the days. Nowadays, I think the focus in a particular WIP thread is generally building up anticipation for the project at hand. For the most part, the creator posts progress updates on the scenario and shows new game art and the members who are interested show their support. A long time ago, people used to post about more common interest issues, like whether it would be interesting to include some novel idea into a project (like the creator asking for input on a side idea that hadn't been done before, rather than giving people a summary of the main premise to build up anticipation for the release), or writing about what it's like to work in the genre, or what one's goals were as a creator. It'd be pretty interesting if people were to talk about those things again. I'd certainly get to know people a whole lot better, since right now, I mostly know people based on what projects they are tied with and by their art styles.

Thinking a bit more about this, an alternate solution might be to create an LSF Annex. This would be a second board devoted to works in progress, and perhaps to more in-depth discussion of completed games. Recruitment and and announcements could go here, but most other game-specific discussion would live on the annex.

That could be a pretty fun idea. If you need help, I could try doing something, as long as it isn't very programming intensive. =w=

[Aleema]

Oh, so this all about nostalgia, then? You guys sound like a bunch of old men, complaining about kids today. =P

I think the difference between then and now is the size of the community. I'm sure it would be lovely to go back to a tightly-knit group of pals where everybody knows everybody, and the order of the day was just some sound game advice. But ... with more people, there will be more threads and posts, and not all of it will be interesting to everyone else. Forcing the forums to conform to appeal to everyone seems like a selfish desire, especially if the only problem you're trying to fix is that you're tired of reading all the posts ever made.

The "LSF Annex" sounds like it's just the WIP forum, shoved somewhere else where you don't have to look at it. Are you really going to blast an entire forum out into space just because you're tired of it showing up on your "new posts" digest? It seems like a highly isolated problem, affecting a very small percentage of the users (albeit, the most important one). Quality game-making discussions have not been dissolved because of its existence.

And if managing the forum is really as much trouble as we all know it is (we know you work too hard for us, it's a fact), then you should seriously consider delegating the work. You have enough reputation and respect to where no one will try to usurp you or anything. It's okay, let us heeeelp. <3

[sayuri]

I agree with Aleema. If there is a capsize on LSF Annex, shouldn't that be the game makers' forum, not the other way around? From my understanding LSF would be the more serious, core forum but the annex would be a restricted WIP forum. It seems be two ways of dwindling down the forum. Feel free to ignore me because I've been on the forum all of three months. To me it seems there are two groups in the forums that overlap. People that are currently making a game and want to generate buzz/receive feedback and those who like to keep tabs on in development VNs. My experience was that I had found the website while looking for updates on a certain game. I decided to join just to keep an eye out for any news. After that I stalked the WIP page, played some great VNs, and eventually felt that I should make my own VN. I think it's a cycle, and a healthy one at that. Slicing up the forum will kind of kill that, in my opinion. Again, I'm a newb so if the forum was genuinely better a few years back then I have no room to say anything. That's my two cents.

[J. Datie]

Oh, so this all about nostalgia, then? You guys sound like a bunch of old men, complaining about kids today. =P

I think this has less to do with nostalgia and more to do with organization. Back during the first few years of the Lemma Soft forums (which required walking uphill in a blizzard just to get to), most of the people here were some kind of creator (ie. writer, artist), with very few people who were VN fans who happened to speak English. Because of that, most discussion would happen from a developer's point of view and tend towards topics that would be relevant to people creating their own visual novels. As the forum grew, more and more VN fans joined who were mainly interested in reading/playing VNs, and less so in creating them. Now, I don't believe that this is a bad thing, as I believe that a more diverse community would be a good thing. The problem is that this group is interested in only the games/VNs, and not in the creation process behind them. Once again, not necessarily a bad thing, but there are now two different groups of users with two different interests posting two different kinds of messages in the same area. So now there's posts about how great a game looks, which appeals to the game's fans only, mixed in with posts about what could be done to improve said game, which appeals to developers only. Of course, it's possible for people to be both fan and developer, you could easily be interested in a VN for its story and for inspiration for your own project, but most people aren't following every project on the forum.

This means that fans have to scroll through posts about for loops will improving their reading experience (whatever the heck those things are supposed to be), and developers looking for developer-talk will have to scroll post about how "super-duper kowai" the art looks (I've got an art style that could be summed up as "kowai"). Fans get bored with listening to Codese, developers stop trying to mine through the Looks Good Mountains trying to find precious Advice Ore, and everyone loses. I think separating the Works in Progress into "for fans" and "for developers" sections would work for the same reason General Discussion and the Game-Makers' Corner are separate. At this point, it's pretty much two different sections trying to exist as one anyways.

Of course, this is assuming that I understand the situation correctly. Otherwise, feel free to pretend this entire post was merely describing Blue Lemma's dashing good looks.

[Aleema]

Very well-argued post, J. Datie. No one has yet to touch upon this as being the issue, so I assume it will be adopted fairly soon.

But, wasn't this forum orignally designed to talk about Lemma Soft's particular games? I certainly wasn't here at the beginning of it all, and I'm not going to pretend I was, but wasn't the forum for the discussion and following of "Tales of Lemma" and such? I figured that's why it was called "Lemma Soft" and not "Ren'Py Forums" or something. If so, it's transformed into a forum to advance the English visual novel. Let us not pretend the medium is more popular than it is, right now. We need to be a strong, unified community in order to expand and thrive. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." -Abraham Lincoln

There are plenty of fences between fans and developers as it is. There are totally different sub-forums for each particular need. If you're not interested in Ren'Py code, don't go into the Ren'Py subforum ..? And what about wading through comments about how art looks? What if I don't care about those? And what if I'm a composer and only want to know about the game's music? Now we're being ridiculous. So what if there's a post that you don't care about? You were forced to scroll a little further? When did this become a huge cataclysmic problem to where we need to secede the WIP forum?

[Samu-kun]

Well, I don't really care too much about the nostalgia, I just remembered that the way we used to do it in the past led to some pretty good discussions and didn't see any reason why we couldn't do the same now. In fact, back then, I think it was impossible to get discussion going because there were too few people, which obviously isn't a problem any more. There's still a small enough number of regular members here that I'll probably be able to remember everyone anyways, so I wouldn't mind it if people started talking more about how they develop their projects. Er, couldn't people just do both? It's not like you can't post updates on your games and also go into a little bit more detail about what exactly you're doing... It'll personalize your WIP thread, let me actually remember who you are and what you're trying to do, and overall, make your project a lot easier to remember later.

I'm not trying to say that the current set up is unusable, I'm just saying that maybe we could improve it to make it better. I admit, for most of the WIP threads, I have to skip 90% of the responses just because they're all exactly the same... Honestly, I think I read that forum just to see the pictures...

[Wintermoon]

Nowadays, it seems to me that a lot of the posts in the WiP forum are getting to be mighty specific, to one game or another. They'll be irrelevant to people who aren't following a specific project closely.

Duh?

If you have something to say that is of general interest, then the WIP forum is the wrong place to do it. Post in a forum that people actually read instead. People read threads in the WIP forum if they are interested in a specific project. People avoid threads in the WIP forum if they are not interested in a specific project. I usually avoid the entire forum, not because of the inane back-patting, but because I want to avoid getting interested in a project that may never materialize.

At the same time, the WIP threads seem to serve a purpose for thread starter, at least. I don't see anything wrong with giving some forum space for what are essentially self-indulgent private blogs divorced from the rest of the message board.

(One minor suggestion: it should be easier to ignore the WIP forum than it currently is. Maybe a way to hide the entire forum in the user preferences.)

[azureXtwilight]

I should agree with Aleema and Wintermoon. Sometimes the "looks good" or "kawaii" made peoplf more inspired to do their work. If you are not interested in a project, just ignore it. Sometimes those comments motivate a maker to complete the project. I'd rather see those than see a project I am expecting drops dead. It will be very dissapointing.

Anyway, that is just my two cents. Not everyone here is a programmer, or artist, or writer. Sometimes there are some who are only enjoying the games here and willing to buy the commercial ones and spread it to everyone else. The way people accepts comments and give comments are different. That is why every thread in a forum is unique in its own way. We should respect it.

[IceD]

Yeah, but how can we talk about respect, if people don't respect forums in the first place? Samu-kun has a point here. Honestly, there's to much chit-chat on the board, and it's mostly useless trash talk. Forums were made for a specific reason, but as far as I can see now, there are long strings of "posts" in almost every thread, that look like lines from a generic IRC or any other chat box and I find it at least a little bit disturbing . As Aleema said, I also feel some people treat various responses in a different manner - some might find even "wow, thats so cool!" type of posts inspiring, while others mark all those threads as "read" and won't care to look at them in the next few days. I don't mind that, but I don't see a point for them to exist in a proper forum manner. Why? Because it's just plain lazyness. It's incredibly easy to write such a short sentence and it doesn't require any thinking at all. It comes straight and naturally and we have our post finished in a matter of seconds, while a proper post takes alot more effort to finish, sometimes a real lot of time. Of course, usage of such posts leads to a total impoverishment of a forum. We, as users should be obliged to fight with that darn lazyness and if required, advise on how to make proper posting. That's when forum rules come into play, along with admins and moderators, who SOMETIMES HAVE TO ENFORCE THEM in order to prevail the correct state, otherwise there will be chaos, seconded by more serious issues that will come later. I'm sorry, there is no other way . People should know that forum isn't a chat client, it's a place for people to gather and share their thoughts in a proper, intelligent way. Anyway, we also have a chat, do we?

I just say, create some STRAIGHTFORWARD rules that will point people and especially new users on how the things should be done. There is a way to restrict the length of posts, so people will have to write at least a few lines, otherwise they won't be able to post. Make a little forum clean-up, make an allowed area for such "simple posting", set up an angry mod legion ready to strike at forum deliquents, and with little extra effort this forum might become a better place for all of us.

There is also another issue... WHY DON'T YOU ALL USE THE CHAT for normal talk instead?! I'm utterly bored sitting there alone all the time! Are you embarassed to talk there or what?! Don't tell me you don't have anything to talk about there. Problems with set up? Post about it in the forum then and we will make a step-by-step help for all of those that have problems with it. FORUMS were designed as a place for constructive diggresions only!

I know many will disagree here, but there is no other way for a forum to be decent. I can see why PyTom is worried, and he is completely right. I've already been an admin few times so I have some experience in this and I've seen many good forums, that were once constructive and helpful being uterly lost because of such posting and disregard towards the rules, admins and moderators. Don't make the same mistake here. Rules are made by people and for people; they aren't created to annoy us but to help and provide a proper, happy place for everyone to enjoy.

It's funny, but I shouldn't be writing all of this; I know that only proper people read those looong posts anyway and even less take anything away with them.

[chelxoxo]

The way I see it, if a person is giving a WiP run-through with images, a summary and the like, it is up to decide whether they are going to ask for constructive feedback or not. If a person wants critique, they can ask for it. If it's a more serious topic, people should say so. Unless people are asking for no trivial comments on their progress, whether it's through small updates or a giant step in production, they are going to get supportive remarks as well as input on how to improve. I do think that recruiting threads should be separated, but linked in the WiP page. That way, when the team places are filled, the recruitment thread can be deleted, and then the team status updated.

I agree with IceD to a small degree, because people ARE lazy, and it would be nice sometimes to see a proper comment that is more than three words long. But if a person creates a WiP post just to show what they're doing, what do they expect? They've given no indication to what they want people to say- and no one wants to be told what to say all the time. And has anyone tried to read several critiques at once? You still end up with different ideas and opinions all over the place. You can't make everyone happy, and nothing's perfect.

Games are there for fun, and even a small comment shows that people are interested. If people can't honestly say that they think a project is good and that they are looking forward to it, it'll seem like a WiP's popularity has plummeted, even if people are still interested in it. I've said before that separating the two pages can stop the recruitment//comments getting mixed... and if the creator of a game wants critique, just say it. But in my experience as a writer, asking for critique tends to put people off commenting all together... and supportive, short comments offer much more motivation than none at all.

[DaFool]

If you're looking for "LSF Annex", a more 'collegiate atmosphere', etc, there's already Teacup:

http://teacup.lunaen.com/index.php

Why am I here? I may need to improve some more in terms of art or writing, but what I really need, are programmers and their opinions.

Almost all the posts here by Jake, Aleema, Jack Norton, Papillon, Counter Arts, and maybe a few others are of extreme interest to me as an overall game designer, one who creates an interactive experience. And they can't be found in Teacup, unfortunately, even though they're my peers in the 'good old days' LSF kind of way.

The way I improve myself is to learn from mistakes from past projects and try to make the next one better until I finally get that magnum opus completed. To me critique such as 'pixellated edges', 'pose a bit stiff', or 'wrong subject-verb agreement' are minor and can be remedied by asking my mom or your mom to help spellcheck. What I need to know is if the overall experience is ruined or if it's cohesive... and one can only know that when there's at least a Beta release, if not the final game.

I've long ignored the WIP forum (except for Battle Engine, obviously) and focus on GameMakers and RenPy mostly. I say let everyone have their own private blog thread... at least they probably will get more eyeballs than if they started a blog out of the blue. Only the bigger projects and 'bigger' gamemakers manage to sustain their own blogs anyway.