A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#16 Post by Jake »

fortaat wrote:Really? I thought guns are a much easier option. Animating a gun being fired is infinitely easier than animating a character using a sword.
Animating is easier with guns, sure. But that's not what I was talking about, and animating a character walking is far harder than either, really, so in the kind of game where you're likely to be animating such things, it's not really that much of an issue.

In terms of game design, it's much easier to write a fantasy battle system that's fun to play because you can utilise movement quite easily; characters generally need to be right next to the enemy to attack them, and thus you can create interesting battlefield terrain with meaningful bottlenecks quite easily. If you give everyone a ranged weapon rather than restricting them to a few specialists (bowmen, magic users, etc.) then your battlefield flows completely differently, cover is more important than motility, and you have to try harder to make interesting varied battlefields. Look at Jeanne d'Arc, for example, on the PSP: there are very very few ranged weapons, one or two guys with bows and a few more with magic, despite the fact that in the real-life Hundred Years War, pivotal battles like Crécy and Agincourt were won by massed bowmen.

For a simple battle system with no movement component, there's really no difference between guns and swords mechanically speaking, and dropping back to the lower-tech option means you don't have to answer awkward questions like "why are all my soldiers standing up in a line waiting to get shot and not hiding behind barricades or something". And battles with gun-armed heroes against wild creatures fighting with tooth and claw should by rights be over before the monsters get within striking distance pretty much every time, so again, dropping down to a fantasy setting avoids breaking suspension of disbelief.
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#17 Post by Mirage »

jack_norton wrote:Thanks for the replies. Is good that at least a sci-fi setting doesn't seem to have a big impact on trying/buying choice (otherwise I'd be doomed at this point, lol).
About the combat:
1) the problem with adding animations is that at that size/quality they're hugely expensive. I am not competing with the commercial games of course, but with other indie games. If you have played any RPGMaker XP games you'll notice that there are some SFX when using special combat skills/spells, but the enemies are "static" like in my game. I agree it's not cool to watch: however as I said I need to compete with those games and not with AAA titles.
2) many options in combat: actually, there are 4 options. attack (with the weapon), psionic skills, defend and item. I don't think it's too much. Again, I compared that to other RPGMaker games and there are exactly 4 options in most of them :D
3) about combat music, surely will add some! and also more "feedback", beside reading "you hit roboant 02 for 5 damage" I'll also at least flash the robot or make it shake or some other minor SFX so you know what you have done.

I plan to have an open alpha/beta anyway using my auto-updating system so I can grab the feedback since I really want to make a game based on people's feedback.
^^; I wasn't comparing you with AAA games. I was talking about simple effects like the one you've mentioned. Anything from shaking screen, to flash lights or beams, they shouldn't be difficult to add. Anything that could help me to see things are happening instead of just texts and SFX. The comment about Chrono Cross is merely for the lack of battle sound track. I am not saying you have to make 3D effects and animated sequence lol~ I am a game maker too so I know exactly what's our limitation.

For options, it was the Psionic part that makes me feel overwhelmed. I don't remember clearly, but there were lots of choices, and due to the lack of effects, I can't tell the differences when using them. So I feel like I was randomly clicking things while waiting for things to actually happen.

Speaking of which, I know that you said you didn't want to add voice overs anymore, but would you consider of adding them only during battle? I know some games who do that, and it's pretty effective IMO~

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#18 Post by jack_norton »

Yes, I am considering redesigning the psionic interface using icons. The actual interface (version 0.3 which I haven't uploaded yet) is already much better since has a "tooltip" or help always on in the bottom of the screen :)
Adding voiceovers on the battle only could be indeed a good choice, have already thought about it and I agree!
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#19 Post by DaFool »

Mirage wrote: Speaking of which, I know that you said you didn't want to add voice overs anymore, but would you consider of adding them only during battle? I know some games who do that, and it's pretty effective IMO~
jack_norton wrote: Adding voiceovers on the battle only could be indeed a good choice, have already thought about it and I agree!
Any chance that these battle voice-overs are in Japanese? (One of the main reasons I prefer JRPGs is because of "Yataa!" or equivalent phrase combined with sexy or cute posing whenever a female party member levels up). I just shot an email to CuriousFactory (managers of English DLsite), but with the economy and all and lack of activity on their site I'm not sure if they're still alive. (Gotta have some high-pitched squeeking in my game if I can!)

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#20 Post by jack_norton »

Haha have to see if I can find voice actor/actresses who can speak japanese first! :D Maybe not all, but could put some japanese voices in game since one of the characters is indeed japanese.
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#21 Post by dott.Piergiorgio »

plot, plot, plot !!!!

and combat preferably turn-based or otherwise not in realtime, because my other major favorite genres are true (that is, turn-based) wargames and TRPG.

tangentially, Valkyrie Profile's "action" mechanism is an huge exception, because this mechanism (reused in Resonance of Fate) fully render the "look around and act" nature of post-WWI small units fighting (and VC IS all around small unit's fighting story during a major war....)

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#22 Post by kara24601 »

It depends on how both are done. I can get annoyed real quick with many "massive multiplayer/multilevel" games simply because of the endless fighting you have to do in order to advance and often how hard the combat is in the first place. I adore easy modes and when people put "easy" they better mean it or I will be mad at the creator for creating a so-called "easy" mode that is not really easy for me at all! I prefer plot and character-driven stuff, exploration, talking with npcs and trading items, virtual fishing, romance, virtual farming and raising virtual children or creatures, ect. over combat even though I do at times enjoy combat. I am really into fantasy games because it lets me be a warrior or wizard or whatever for a while and whacking at stuff with a sword. I love bows and arrows. I love other fantasy/medivel weapons. I sometimes even love games where you use a gun instead of a sword. But I prefer swords and such things. I enjoy sci fi sometimes but I love fantasy more and when it comes to sci fi games I've enjoyed star trek related games and Space Quest. I want to play Ratchet and Clank someday. I want to play Oddworld: Abe's Odyssey and other Oddworld game(s) someday. I think there's a few others but I don't remember their titles. I sometimes even enjoy sports games, shooters, puzzlers, ect. even though they usually annoy me. It all depends really. It just depends on the game.

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#23 Post by Riviera »

Plot. Always plot. Plot trumps all for me.

I pretty much view RPGs as interactive novels. Gameplay can be great, but plot is number one followed by characters, graphics and sound.
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#24 Post by Doggy Nino »

For RPG games I tend to like to focus more on the fight and developing the right skills for my character than the plot...but at the same time I also like the idea of a story plot to help me better understand the reason why I'm fighting. But also it really depends on what kind of plot the story would have and also how the fighting on the game is played. Is their different paths you can take depending if you win or lose? Can I have a variety of different weapons?? I guess it would be a intersting idea to combine the two together in my final opinion.
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#25 Post by maypaymusic »

hmmm I always tend to go for a plotline especially if it has a tinge of romance in it...sorta like aveyond 1...I mean I liked the fighting but it got in the way sometimes when I'm just trying to find out what's going to happen next...that's why I tend to like those games which have a story mode or some way to cruise by all the battles so I can just find out about the story but of course the story itself has to be interesting :P
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#26 Post by Auro-Cyanide »

PLOOOOOOOT!!!!! Partly because I like stories and partly because I tend to suck at gameplay.

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#27 Post by neowired »

combat/management focuses your attention, plot gives you a reason to fight - it's synergy

without combat/management it becomes a book
without plot it becomes tetris
both can be fun if they are well made

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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#28 Post by jack_norton »

Well, following the advice of another veteran indie, I decided to put a story on Planet Stronghold, but with short dialogues, so that even people who hate stories won't find it too much boring. Right now I finished the first day of training, and I'd say that at normal reading speed there is 5-10 min of dialogues between each battle (which can last a variable amount of time, but mostly they're between 5-15min).
I noticed on some JRPG battles can be very lengthy, I don't like that much, except of course for "boss" battles.
Also, I'm going to implement a system so that you can't really "DIE" and get "GAME OVER". You'll be penalized if you lose battles but I am not a fan of the save/try/reload system :)
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Re: A question for RPG lovers: plot or combat?

#29 Post by LordShiranai »

I'm going to be an oddball on this topic and say the following:

Plot is the most important aspect for the first play through of most RPGs. After that, however, having a fun and interesting combat system is what is going to make me play through it multiple times. This is why I'll happily play most of the Tales game over and over, but I haven't done a second play through of any Final Fantasy game since FF7.
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#30 Post by Topagae »

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