[SLOWDOWN] Please be careful who you give business to.

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kinougames
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#16 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:57 pm

Topagae wrote:In an effort of unity and not wanting to spread wanton hate.

Exactly what would I have to do to get this giant flame war to stop? I already said the offer is over, the best people can do right now is end up in my inbox for eventual review. Is the only way to shut down my site or something? It pains me to see such awfulness come because of me.
Looking at your most recent comments, I am much more inclined to believe now over yesterday that you are willing to fix the problems, and will edit this into the post as a benefit.
Aleema wrote:You turn me on, Jake. I want to have your babies. Damn the ocean between us.

How's that for unnecessary?
And off-topic?
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#17 Post by Jake » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:01 pm

kinougames wrote: And off-topic?
Aleema just has a grudge against me because I made her look stupid once a year or so ago, ignore her.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#18 Post by Aleema » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:05 pm

kinougames wrote:And off-topic?
Okay, I'll fix my post.
Jake wrote:Aleema just has a grudge against me because I made her look stupid once a year or so ago, ignore her.
I'm touching myself right now. Oooh, oooh God, Jake ..!

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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#19 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:09 pm

Topagae wrote:
Aleema wrote:Oh, boy. What a wank-fest.

DUH, be careful with your money? DUH, invest wisely? DUH, not every service out there is applicable to you? When my friends buy computers at a store, they actually pay upwards $100 for the technician to do something a first grader could for them, for free. You don't see me making riot signs and pissing on their store. Not everyone needs that service, but there are some really confused individuals who'd rather not risk it -- that's for them. Does it take advantage of the customer, or is the cost the price of peace of mind? That's for you to decide, but it will always be just that: a personal decision.

Making this thread (and multiple accounts) really makes you seem spiteful, like he hurt your ego and now he must pay. If you think you're doing the forum a great service by playing the superhero -- you're not. It's just exasperating. =\

I actually JUST bothered to read the topic name of this thread. Due to Aleema. Money?

I NEVER asked for money. Ever. My porting work is completely 100% free. The only thing a source porter (You guys) will lose if our port sucks and makes nothing is the time you spent dealing with me. I'm paying for porting, hosting, and every other cost to get the game up in my engine. And I think this thread is quite shadily trying to make mountains out of molehills with it's title, because yes you will in fact lose time if I turn out to be completely wrong. But it certainly won't cost you any money.

I repeat. I will not, nor will I ever, ask for your money. At this point I am asking for your time and effort.
You didn't ask for money upfront, but requiring a percentage of sales is taking a payment for your work and should be counted as a payment, not to mention would be counted as a payment in a court of American law at the very least (as in, you could sue to receive it). Again, you should really learn how business works before starting one. How do record companies make money from their artists? They put up all the costs and expect payment back if the work makes money.
I'm touching myself right now. Oooh, oooh God, Jake ..!
No offense, Aleema, but for someone calling vendettas on this post, this looks really really poor.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#20 Post by Aleema » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:11 pm

Touché. Touché means "you're wrong," right?

I'm pointing out how stupid vendettas are, yes. Trolling threads with no decency towards the poster is also my goal. We need to start a petition for a sarcasm font.

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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#21 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:13 pm

You should really rework your definition of trolling and decency.

Trolling and lack of decency = what you're doing.

Asking questions and pointing out flaws = what was done.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#22 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:14 pm

Jake wrote:
kinougames wrote: And off-topic?
Aleema just has a grudge against me because I made her look stupid once a year or so ago, ignore her.
Duly noted. o_O
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#23 Post by Aleema » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:24 pm

I'm very informed on the situation and I've read every post in that thread. If anyone is being an assbucket, then all of you are. If you look back at the thread, you will see him respond in a decent manner to every post, until yours. Why? Perhaps because you didn't watch your decency as much as he would've liked, so he did the same. fortaat, being known to say things in a crass way, reiterated it in his crass way (I don't think he would argue he gets right to the point), and thus the fire began. No, he did not react in a overly professional manner, which would have been to just ignore you -- but maybe that's because he's human, too. I would rather be involved with someone willing to fight for their product rather than someone who just blows off attacks to it. If some of the reasons to call his service a scam is based on how he reacted to your posts and how you could do the same thing he did, then that indeed is a "who's penis is bigger" match. Not answering questions is just your excuse.

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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#24 Post by Topagae » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:33 pm

@Aleema

You gotta stop acting sexy, everytime I mire myself in seriousness and then read those posts I laughed so hard I shot root beer out my noise.

The bubbles still burn Aleema.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#25 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:34 pm

Aleema wrote:I'm very informed on the situation and I've read every post in that thread. If anyone is being an assbucket, then all of you are. If you look back at the thread, you will see him respond in a decent manner to every post, until yours. Why? Perhaps because you didn't watch your decency as much as he would've liked, so he did the same. fortaat, being known to say things in a crass way, reiterated it in his crass way (I don't think he would argue he gets right to the point), and thus the fire began. No, he did not react in a overly professional manner, which would have been to just ignore you -- but maybe that's because he's human, too. I would rather be involved in someone willing to fight for their product rather than someone who just blows off attacks to it. If some of the reasons to call his service a scam is based on how he reacted to your posts and how you could do the same thing he did, then that indeed is a "who's penis is bigger" match.
There is nothing wrong with crass. Crass is how you get your point across. There IS a problem with flagrant insults that make little to no sense. I was polite. I asked questions that directly addressed my issues. I even stated that I might've missed something and might've skimmed, because I do tend to do that. Just because you don't like critique doesn't mean that the critique is rude, and that is a fact that too many people do not understand.

I didn't say "I can do the same thing you do". I cannot create an engine that does what his does. I, the person who made the first comment there, cannot even do any programming at all. However, I DID go out and find someone for free, very easily, who COULD do the equivalent. It is a reasonable question to ask of someone; "what are you giving me extra that I should pay for when the same work is free across the internet?" If someone said to you: "I have this engine that is kind of like Ren'py, only it doesn't work as well as Ren'py works and doesn't have nearly as many capabilities, but you need to pay me to use it", you'd probably run and hard.

Learn what an attack is. Learn what critique is. An attack is throwing the word troll everywhere. Furthermore, I thought his first couple responses to my comments were actually quite nice and frank, so again, we disagree.

Lastly, I do not have a personal stake in your project. Where you decide to take it is up to you, and you alone. Not only does it not affect me, but you "not wanting to work with me/the others" when no one has asked you to doesn't affect us either.

At any rate, tossing personal insults on this thread is silly. I have not thrown any, nor have I said anything untrue. "Topa has poor, scam-like business manner" is not "Topa is a giant peenie head! Everyone hate him now, okay!"
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#26 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:35 pm

Topagae wrote:@Aleema

You gotta stop acting sexy, everytime I mire myself in seriousness and then read those posts I laughed so hard I shot root beer out my noise.

The bubbles still burn Aleema.
Attempting to stay on topic would probably help your case.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#27 Post by Topagae » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:37 pm

@kinou

Isn't the premise of the entire thread untrue, or at least very misleading? I've never asked for money. In fact I embraced porting free games for free and selling them for free, because I am so moved by the enthusiasm of this community. I fail to see how that makes me a money grubber as this title of this thread implies.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#28 Post by Jake » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:39 pm

Aleema wrote: I'm very informed on the situation and I've read every post in that thread.
And apparently not understood them.
Aleema wrote: If some of the reasons to call his service a scam is based on how he reacted to your posts
If you had, you would know that the main reason we're saying his service looks like a scam (note: not is a scam, looks like a scam) is because he:

a) refuses to actually demonstrate that the service he's selling actually exists
b) flips between one answer and the next, apparently without realising that he's contradicting himself.

If someone comes to you and offers to sell you a bridge, then you don't just jump up and down and say "this bridge sale will make you a millionaire!"; you ask to see the bridge, and the proof that the guy owns it.

Topogae showed us a deed, but when we checked it out, it was a deed to a smaller, crappier bridge than the one he tried to sell us. When asked about it, he said "oh, yeah, I just showed you that deed to get you to shut up". So we asked for the actual deed, or at least to see the actual bridge, and he said "the bridge I described exists, and I've got lots of people interested in buying it" but still didn't show us any proof of anything.

But of course you know all this, because you read the thread.
Aleema wrote: I would rather be involved with someone willing to fight for their product rather than someone who just blows off attacks to it.
Good for you. However bold you may be, though, I suspect most people would rather be involved with someone who knows what he's doing and is behaving in a professional and trustworthy manner.

Topagae wrote: Isn't the premise of the entire thread untrue, or at least very misleading? I've never asked for money.
As has been pointed out: you're asking for a cut of the profits, which is effectively asking for money.
Not to mention that, as the old adage goes, "time is money"; you're definitely asking for an investment of someone else's time.
The title is bad, perhaps, but the "premise of the entire thread" is just that people should be wary about getting into bed with you.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#29 Post by Topagae » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:42 pm

@Jake

"As has been pointed out: you're asking for a cut of the profits, which is effectively asking for money."

No it's not. Asking for money right now, and asking for money over possible sales of a product I am giving are completely different things. More-over, cash in hand is worth more, ALOT more then cash in the future, that is the basis of loans. I am not asking for ANY cash in hand. What I'm asking for is a cut of money that MAY OR MAY NOT exist later, which is much more reasonable then asking for it up front because there's no risk of loss of anything but time on the people I'm asking to help me.
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Re: Please be careful with your hard-earned money.

#30 Post by kinougames » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:47 pm

Topagae wrote:@kinou

Isn't the premise of the entire thread untrue, or at least very misleading? I've never asked for money. In fact I embraced porting free games for free and selling them for free, because I am so moved by the enthusiasm of this community. I fail to see how that makes me a money grubber as this title of this thread implies.
I never, ever, ever said you were a money-grubber. Not on your post, not on any post I've ever made about you. Please stop reading into things that are not there. I stated my reason to tell people to watch their money. Getting a percentage of profits is still money. I even said that "if this is for free, it becomes a different story with different rules", and it does, because rules are very loose when there is a completely free service. You cannot sue people who provide free things (unless payment is made by some barter of services), people who provide free things are not liable to contractual law (e.g. you can't sue the Ren'py creators if Ren'py doesn't do what you want it to do). Once you asked for a percentage, which you did, in your original post, and over and over again in the post itself, it became a contract and recompensable under contract law.

If people want to use your service for free, then worrying about their money becomes a moot point.
No it's not. Asking for money right now, and asking for money over possible sales of a product I am giving are completely different things. More-over, cash in hand is worth more, ALOT more then cash in the future, that is the basis of loans. I am not asking for ANY cash in hand. What I'm asking for is a cut of money that MAY OR MAY NOT exist later, which is much more reasonable then asking for it up front because there's no risk of loss of anything but time on the people I'm asking to help me.
And you are still liable under contract law despite you claiming that money in the hand is the only money that counts. The law disagrees with you, at least in America. If you are not running this business from America, or to Americans, then I will go on and change it. Please do your clients a favor and look up this stuff or hire a lawyer or something.
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