Do I look fat in this dress?

[Topagae]

"Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit..."

[Ren]

For me there's no problem. I quite like to hug some chub. I mean, being healthy is important, but I like me man with some meat to bite. >:3

Oh, this wasn't meant to be seen the other way around, eh? I guess men aren't expected to be insecure ever.

[J. Datie]

I guess men aren't expected to be insecure ever.

Didn't you hear what the TV ads said? Men don't feel emotions, they only feel the urge to drink beer and shoot deer all the time. Only women can have emotions. And yogurt.

[Topagae]

"Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit..."

[papillon]

Didn't you hear what the TV ads said? Men don't feel emotions, they only feel the urge to drink beer and shoot deer all the time.

You should come hang out in my raving feminist internet communes. We protest those sexist ads too.

"Men are bumbling buffoons driven only by their physical urges" is not a healthy meme.

[kinougames]

If you think your wife is fat, that is what's shallow.

News flash - sometimes your wife IS fat.

It's a problem if you think your wife is fat and fatness matters to you and you haven't said anything.

It's also a problem if "fat" to you personally doesn't mean fat at all but means "ugly, lazy, smelly, weak, useless, gluttonous, a burden, stupid, weak-willed" or any of the long list of other things people sometimes MEAN when they say "fat". None of which actually have anything to do with being fat - you can be fat and not those things, or be those things and be thin.

A: Oh, don't worry, I don't think of YOU as fat!
B: What, you're blind now?

This I agree with. Some people like fat, like the word fat, think of wonderful and beautiful things when the word is used to describe someone. Correlating fat to being shallow shows your own poor judgement on what is beautiful; namely that fat is automatically a bad thing and to use the word makes you bad.

HOWEVER.

This is a bezerk button for me so I'm-a-gonna rant. I find the whole cultural meme of "do I look fat in this" insulting to absolutely everyone involved, male or female, fat or thin.

I'm really uncomfortable with the implication that you feel insulted for other people.

Third, if the person asking the question really cares about what visual impact they make and is trying to get an opinion on which clothes enhance a particular aspect, how is lying more ethical? Clothes do not change the actual body beneath them, but they can change its shape and they can change the way the eye is guided to look over them. I'm trying to avoid saying that some clothes look "better" or "more flattering" because there is not one central opinion/shape of how all people should look. But if you're actively trying to dress to, say, draw attention to your shoulders or breasts and away from your stomach, how are you helped by people intentionally giving you bad feedback?

This is a huge if, and very, very relevant to the case you are trying to make. What if they are not? What if the person being asked KNOWS their spouse would not be happy or comfortable to be told the truth, as they see it, about whether or not the person is fat? What if the person has an eating disorder? What if the person has had an eating disorder in the past? What if the person has low self-esteem, poor enough that you can reasonably assume that all sorts of bad things could happen from that honesty?

... now, if you're in a relationship with someone who's new to the whole idea of actually being honest and working together instead of engaging in some mars/venus bullshit, you might want to find a TACTFUL way of answering the question. but outright lying? Is counterproductive. It's not just unethical, it's actively shooting yourself in the foot and lowering your own chances of later happiness. Kinda like piracy!

Again, I'm highly unnerved by the idea that people who have body dysmorphic disorder/eating disorders/various other massive self-esteem issues are "new to the idea of being honest" and "engaging in mars/venus bullshit"? I dislike the discounting of people who don't perfectly fit the scenario set out in the original post, and saying not-so-nice things about those who might have been affected, not of their own will, by the parents, the doctors, the peers, and the media putting down "fat" and calling "thin" beautiful. And sometimes it's not about YOUR happiness. A lot of people ask their spouse certain questions because if, at the very least, their spouse can say something good about them, they can go about their own day a little brighter and a little happier. Some people have gotten nothing but insults from the above-listed people based on ridiculous societal standards, and maybe those people just want to hear a certain thing, even if some random person they don't know thinks it's stupid/wrong.

Dislike the meme, the inherent sexism of it, but if some guys want to tell their girlfriends that they look skinny because they know their girlfriend will be happy (assuming he doesn't care about fat vs nonfat), and avoid calling their girlfriend fat because their know their girlfriend has problems with that, I find them perfectly ethical.

It's hard to call a situation like this so generically because people are so different. People want to hear different things. People ask questions for different reasons. The answerers are the same way. They answer questions for certain reasons. Picking a single situation in which it would be unethical to lie to the question while ignoring the situations in which it would be considered quite ethical to do so is a logically fallacious argument that is actually named.

Fourth, if you are in a relationship, how can you possibly think it's a good thing to set up a cycle of intentional lies? There's this NONSENSE being peddled by sitcoms and advertisers to lie, lie, lie. "Don't tell her she looks fat even if she does. Don't tell her she looks like her mother even if she does. If she says she doesn't want presents, buy her presents anyway. If she says she'd rather have a new computer than a diamond ring, ignore her and buy the diamond ring. She's just afraid of looking too eager." etc, etc. They tell women that they must lie or be viewed as brazen whores, and they tell men that they must engage in some secret code dance or be "exiled to the couch". This is complete bs on both sides and does nothing but enforce bizarre gender stereotypes and contribute to unhappy relationships - which is GOOD for advertisers, unhappy people cycling through multiple relationships will BUY MORE CRAP.

Some people think it's sweet when people do a bit of "wrong" for the sake of making them feel good. It's similar to saying "how are you?" when you're chatting casually with someone, but don't really expect or want them to go into an intense depressing story about their lives. Please don't decide what other people should like based on your personal beliefs.

[papillon]

Yes, I definitely agree that it's different if you know the specifics of the situation and there are good reasons, such as disorders, not to say "Yup. Fat!" (Although I would tend to argue that if there is a serious disorder at work, one might wish to be trying to treat that? Certainly it's not always that easy, and recovery from those things can take a long time.)

But I was addressing more the deep-rooted cultural mythology that comes up in movies/ads/sitcoms/magazines/etc, that ALL WOMEN must be deeply afraid of being fat at all times, and ALL MEN must lie to them for their own good, and the similar programming about other male/female relations which is, really, mars/venus bullshit when it's taken seriously. If both parties know they're playing a game and can talk openly about the rules of the game and be amused by them, it's a whole different story. It's not lying if you're both playing.

Frankly I've been too many places and seen too many men ranting about the evils of women and how they deserve [long list of horrible things] because they're "all lying, manipulative bitches" who supposedly require all of these behaviors to be executed perfectly. And other guys who aren't jerks despairing that THEY (the guys) must be horrible people because they can't carry out this whole song and dance routine. And women frustrated that their actual requests and desires are routinely overlooked by their boyfriends who think it's their duty to make decisions for the little lady. Also, no surprise, I am an adult woman of larger than national-average size and have some objections to "faaaaaaaaaat" being whispered in hushed voices like it's the worst thing ever. And to having eggs thrown at me. Ow! Luckily, they BOUNCE off my padding without breaking.

I make an extra-loud noise about this not because I intend to march into everyone's house and tell them 'How DARE you flatter your wife?' but because extra-loud noises are necessary to help get the point across that not all people think this way or have to. Meme war!

[kinougames]

Yes, I definitely agree that it's different if you know the specifics of the situation and there are good reasons, such as disorders, not to say "Yup. Fat!" (Although I would tend to argue that if there is a serious disorder at work, one might wish to be trying to treat that? Certainly it's not always that easy, and recovery from those things can take a long time.)

The proper way to treat these disorders is not to scream "fat!" at a person repeatedly until they get over it, so whether you're being treated or not wouldn't matter. You can be in recovery (and anyone with these disorders will tell you; it's for life. You will never, ever, be completely comfortable with those ideas) and people can still do their part to help.

I make an extra-loud noise about this not because I intend to march into everyone's house and tell them 'How DARE you flatter your wife?' but because extra-loud noises are necessary to help get the point across that not all people think this way or have to. Meme war!

Noise wasn't the problem. I rant all the time and you can bet your butt I'm loud and probably ridiculous. My problem was that you did come across as "marching into everyone's houses" and saying just that, without regard (or even a mention) for the numerous exceptions. And this is from someone who not only doesn't subscribe to the gender binary, but sits completely outside of it.

[neowired]

>Falls into writer's persona<

My love, you know what the doctor said, you're overweight, how you look matters not.

My love, you have a medically perfect weight, you are a healthy female/male why would I care about anything else?

My love, my fat little piggy, just how I love *kiss*

My love, those clothes don't do your figure best

My love, those clothes compliment your figure perfectly

My love, you know I have no fashion taste, my help would make it even worse.

My love, we don't have time for this, we're already late

[papillon]

Yes, I definitely agree that it's different if you know the specifics of the situation and there are good reasons, such as disorders, not to say "Yup. Fat!" (Although I would tend to argue that if there is a serious disorder at work, one might wish to be trying to treat that? Certainly it's not always that easy, and recovery from those things can take a long time.)

The proper way to treat these disorders is not to scream "fat!" at a person repeatedly until they get over it, so whether you're being treated or not wouldn't matter.

Good thing I didn't suggest that, then.

You can be in recovery (and anyone with these disorders will tell you; it's for life. You will never, ever, be completely comfortable with those ideas) and people can still do their part to help.

Yeah, I know. I don't suffer from those disorders myself, but from having talked to people who do, lying still wouldn't be the right answer and would still tend to be counterproductive to their mental health. However, I don't really want to get into the details of that particular subset of cases because I *don't* have direct experience here, and the actual best thing to say to people who do suffer from such disorders is going to depend on individual experiences anyway.

The initial statement was a sweeping one about a generic wife, suggesting that it would always be inappropriate to be truthful to one's wife about her appearance. It gave the impression of being an off-the-cuff remark that you wouldn't have expected anyone to disagree with. If your initial statement had been about a recovering anorexic I wouldn't have gone off on the rant in the first place.

Not to mention that one of the things that helps drive up the rates of such conditions is the frothing societal fat-hatred that's getting to epidemic proportions, and that a lot of people in recovery from such disorders are not going to ask that question but are going to be painfully triggered by someone else asking that question. In general, the person asking the question is just as much a subject of my criticism as the person struggling to answer it.

[kinougames]

You can be in recovery (and anyone with these disorders will tell you; it's for life. You will never, ever, be completely comfortable with those ideas) and people can still do their part to help.

Yeah, I know. I don't suffer from those disorders myself, but from having talked to people who do, lying still wouldn't be the right answer and would still tend to be counterproductive to their mental health. However, I don't really want to get into the details of that particular subset of cases because I *don't* have direct experience here, and the actual best thing to say to people who do suffer from such disorders is going to depend on individual experiences anyway.

This part I agree with, at least, though you didn't reflect it at all.

The initial statement was a sweeping one about a generic wife, suggesting that it would always be inappropriate to be truthful to one's wife about her appearance. It gave the impression of being an off-the-cuff remark that you wouldn't have expected anyone to disagree with. If your initial statement had been about a recovering anorexic I wouldn't have gone off on the rant in the first place.

Not to mention that one of the things that helps drive up the rates of such conditions is the frothing societal fat-hatred that's getting to epidemic proportions, and that a lot of people in recovery from such disorders are not going to ask that question but are going to be painfully triggered by someone else asking that question. In general, the person asking the question is just as much a subject of my criticism as the person struggling to answer it.

The initial statement had nothing to do with an actual wife. It had nothing to do with being truthful to one's wife about her appearance.

It had to do with providing a situation in which it is not necessarily unethical to lie. One that a guy, the person being replied to, was going to understand quickly. It was used as a meme, and a comparison, not as a statement to "YOU MUST NEVAR BE TRUTHFUL!" >O

If you pay close attention, the original case was exactly the same: In certain situations, it would be a dumb, unethical idea to lie about your game release. In others, it's simply about being smart and knowing what you're dealing with. You taking it as more than that is your perogative, but as I said it, and knowing exactly why I said it, it was simply easiest to relate to, and you can bet the meaning was gotten. ^-^

Lastly, one: I really would not, after admitting you have no experience with the aforementioned disorders, guess at what you think is going on with people who have those disorders based on anecdotal data. But if they're coming under your own sweeping generalistic criticisms, then I will not blame them in any way.

[Nanashiko]

For some reason when I hear this question. All I can think of is a little skinny girl who has never been fat in her life who is concerned about her looks. Honestly I am fat. I know I am fat. I don't have to ask someone if I look fat in something cause I know I will look fat anyways. =/ I just try and find clothes that I feel comfortable in and look pretty good in. If I am going to ask someone how I look I want to really know how I look. I don't ask this all the time cause really only I care what I look like. Unless I was going to an interview or something I would never ask someone how I look. Which I would want an honest opinion on how I look so I can quickly fix myself up to make me look more suitable for the occasion.

My room mate is always asking me how she looks and I say: You look good to me. Or I wouldn't wear that but if you like and feel good in it, wear it. Honestly how you want to look is all up to you. My taste greatly differs from the norm I guess.

[HumbertTheHorse]

Marriage can be pleasant as long as both partners like each other so, be nice. It's just that simple.

edit: This whole tirade has a touch of the 'virgin lecturing on sex' feel to it. No offence, just being ethical.

[papillon]

I'm fat, female, and married, so I don't think I qualify as completely virginal on the subject?

[HumbertTheHorse]

Sorry, I was mistaken. (As a married man, that is a phrase I say often. )