Do I look fat in this dress?

[fortaat]

Please name me a matriarcal country where women are working more than men to end your argument, cause I don't see any around the world – and please notice that men are immune against breast cancer.

I can't, because:

There are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal

Since nearly every test group (country) shows the same results (women live longer than men), than it's most likely a characteristic of the test groups (genes), and not something that varies between them (sociology).

Still, I don't want to enter in any silly “man against woman” discussion, because it's just plain boring. We can discuss it if you want, for you not to think I'm running away, but life expectancy debates was especially what I was deploring in my previous post – because they are totally sterile.

You and Neowired questioned well established facts. I corrected you, and added some information.
This has nothing to do with a “man against woman” discussion.

and please notice that men are immune against breast cancer

They aren't immune actually. It's just very rare.

Let's call it "a very very powerful resilience".

They aren't more resilience, it's actually more lethal to men.

Breast cancer is about 100 times more common in women than in men, although males tend to have poorer outcomes due to delays in diagnosis.

The delay is a result of little awareness - many men assume they are immune, and don't bother to check for this sort of cancer.

--------------------
Fortaat - raising awareness, saving souls.

[Cathar]

Wikipedia, Matriarchy wrote:
There are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal

Since nearly every test group (country) shows the same results (women live longer than men), than it's most likely a characteristic of the test groups (genes), and not something that varies between them (sociology).

That was my point. Since every test group is more on less patriarcal, making men as actively working and women stay at home passively, a statistic study can conclude nothing serious about genes.
And I have strictly no doubt that when feminism will have a major effect on our society, men statistic lifespan will widely enlarge.

For the rest. Ultimately, men are peeing farer, and there are nothing you can do with this xD

Seriousely, I'm totally aware of the fact I'm hurting some kind of gender pride when I say this ; and I'm not here to fight with women. So it would be a really clumsy move to answer anything on breast cancer, which was as a matter of fact a (stupid, indeed) joke to swap subjects.
Believe what you want to believe, and let's talk about something we can debate on.

[fortaat]

Since every test group is more on less patriarcal

Matriarchal and patriarchal aren't binary options. Many societies don't fit to either definition.

making men as actively working and women stay at home passively, a statistic study can conclude nothing serious about genes.

Search for "work hours around the globe" on Google, I'm tired of doing the hard work for you. In many societies women work the same hours, if not more. And yet, we still see they have a higher average longevity.

I suggest you ask your science teacher the same question you asked here. Not only will he be able to answer it better than a random guy on the internet could, he's also paid to do it. He probably knows some good introductory books on the subject, ask him what you should read.

And I have strictly no doubt that when feminism will have a major effect on our society, men statistic lifespan will widely enlarge.

That's fine, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like. I just gave some facts on why your theory is likely incorrect, and explained why the general consensus of the science community is to "blame" the genes.

BTW, feminism already had a major effect.

Seriousely, I'm totally aware of the fact I'm hurting some kind of gender pride when I say this ; and I'm not here to fight with women.

Again, this has nothing to do with gender pride. I brought up some facts both of you seemed oblivious to - these facts were deducted without asking every researcher what he feels about his gender.

[Cathar]

Search for "work hours around the globe" on Google, I'm tired of doing the hard work for you. In many societies women work the same hours, if not more. And yet, we still see they have a higher average longevity.

Don't tire yourself for such a trivial question, which I told you for the third time I'm not interested in. Because work may reduce your lifespan.
Thanks for your answer anyway.

I suggest you ask your science teacher the same question you asked here. Not only will he be able to answer it better than a random guy on the internet could, he's also paid to do it. He probably knows some good introductory books on the subject, ask him what you should read.

Paternalizing me is a bad idea in general. I read books on the subject, and only one work (from Odette Thibault) was taking your option, among a list of three. And it was not the most serious.
Anyway, if you're sure your option is the right one, again, debating this is only a waste of time for me.

[fortaat]

Don't tire yourself for such a trivial question, which I told you for the third time I'm not interested in. Because work may reduce your lifespan.
Thanks for your answer anyway.

If you aren't interested in the question, why did you brought it up in the first place? Why did you read three books about it?

Anyway, you're welcome.

Paternalizing me is a bad idea in general. I read books on the subject, and only one work (from Odette Thibault) was taking your option, among a list of three. And it was not the most serious.

I don't think I was patronizing you, but I agree that as it stands, this isn't the most productive discourse.

Anyway, if you're sure your option is the right one, again, debating this is only a waste of time for me.

I'm not sure I'm right, but you haven't backed your claims with any resources, nor refuted what I said. You also made a couple of mistakes that made me doubt how knowledgeable you are about the subject, so it's understandable that I'll ask you to back your opinion with facts.

[neowired]

Women around the world live longer than man. This negates the any sociological explanations, and means it's all about the genes.
Recomended read, notice half the disorders impact man more than women. Y-linked disorders don't affect women.

I'm not sure if that convinces me but it's a very valid point.

Also, as far as I know, it's an establish medical fact that high testosterone levels are directly bad for health (for example heart) so it could be one reason for shortened lifespan, especially in the older aged people
Or am I wrong?

[Cathar]

If you aren't interested in the question, why did you brought it up in the first place? Why did you read three books about it?

When I was on my second years of university, I had to work on the subject of death, and when I had to take position to the question "is death endogenous or exclusively exogenous" all the biologist and philosophers I read had to give their opinion on the subject of the gender difference in lifespan.
And, as you are some kind knowledgeable on the subject, you must know that there are neither biological proofs nor evidences that death is endogenous - and the "limited mitosis cellular ability" you've surely heard of, never killed anyone.

So it doesn't interest me in the first place, but I may claim some knowledge on the subject. If you read french, I can send you my essay on this, if you are interested in.

I'm not sure I'm right, but you haven't backed your claims with any resources, nor refuted what I said.

Well, what you says are interesting facts, and I'm not contesting their validity - but I have doubts on your interpretation of them. You are giving statistics as if they were speaking by themselves. The statistics are valid, your interpretation is debatable.

You said "worldwide studies shows that women are living longer, so that negates the sociological explanation", and I answered "worldwide society are (more or less) patriarchal, and I'm suspecting patriarchy to be at the origin of reduction of men lifespan (I mean, for *obvious* reasons ; because they are dying in war, from accident on dangerous works, because they have to work to feed their families while woman work is FAR to be a general situation, therefore live a tiring life, suicides -twice more frequents on men than women and so on). So how can you seriously separate biology from society in these conditions ?

You also made a couple of mistakes that made me doubt how knowledgeable you are about the subject, so it's understandable that I'll ask you to back your opinion with facts.

The fact is I'm no biologist nor statistician, its true. The problem with so called exact sciences is the fact they are not debatable - they are a debate subject for specialists - and quite boring to discuss for others in a general way, because they bear strictly no consequences for them.
I mean ; we'll argue on biology and lifespan for days, and after, what will it change on our way of thinking ? What does this implicate in terms of political terms ? Nothing. Philosophy, ethics, metaphysic ? Neither. It does not change our way to see and to interpret facts, it does not change our way to behave to one another, among things. No consequences at all ; that's what makes this kind of debate is related to gender-pride (I'm doing my self critic as well).
And that is why I think that the tropes criticism is far more interesting.

Hope what I wrote is understandable.

Also, as far as I know, it's an establish medical fact that high testosterone levels are directly bad for health (for example heart) so it could be one reason for shortened lifespan, especially in the older aged people

My brother is a body-builder, and have to do regularly testosterone fix ; and I'd say the real problem with it is the fact he have more chances to die in street knife-fights since he's really (*really*) aggressive after each fix.
The effects of testosterone on human body is truly impressive. Last time, he destroyed a table hitting it with bare fist ; and that's a frightening show.

[Mirage]

I'm suspecting patriarchy to be at the origin of reduction of men lifespan (I mean, for *obvious* reasons ; because they are dying in war, from accident on dangerous works, because they have to work to feed their families while woman work is FAR to be a general situation, therefore live a tiring life, suicides -twice more frequents on men than women and so on).

Any proof to back this up? Especially the suicide part. I could have sworn I saw an opposite article saying there are more female who suicide than male.

Also, I donno what country you are living in, but female who works full time is common nowadays. There are also plenty female who have to do both work and taking care of children/home. I question where you get the idea that male live a more tiring life than female.

Oh, btw, the war part, we aren't living in world war 2. Majority of the countries in world aren't in war.

[Cathar]

I'm suspecting patriarchy to be at the origin of reduction of men lifespan (I mean, for *obvious* reasons ; because they are dying in war, from accident on dangerous works, because they have to work to feed their families while woman work is FAR to be a general situation, therefore live a tiring life, suicides -twice more frequents on men than women and so on).

Any proof to back this up? Especially the suicide part. I could have sworn I saw an opposite article saying there are more female who suicide than male.

Also, I donno what country you are living in, but female who works full time is common nowadays. There are also plenty female who have to do both work and taking care of children/home. I question where you get the idea that male live a more tiring life than female.

Oh, btw, the war part, we aren't living in world war 2. Majority of the countries in world aren't in war.

About the suicide thing, I recommend you to read this wikipedia page. It's in french, of course. But the tab on the beginning of the article is pretty simple to read.

En France en 2008, selon les sources, le taux de suicide est de 16,2 pour 100 000 habitants[7],[8] ou bien exprimé de la façon suivante par l'OMS : 26,4 pour les hommes et 7,2 pour les femmes[9].

Traduction.
Man = 26.4
Woman = 7.2

The difference is a little smaller than x4.

I live in france. I don't have a wikipedia article to tell you that despite the wonderful major effect of feminism, women don't pave roads and don't constructs buildings. I'd like them to do so, but in the real life, this kind of work, like the others that are expected to reduce your lifespan (by accidents / tiredness), is essentially masculine.

This is a joke I use to tease my feminist friends ; "you don't suffer from patriarchy as much as I do" (it effectively reduces my lifespan).

And there are wars worldwide you know. I can tell you some cases where men are quite widely requisitioned to fight with riffle, bombs or stones.

[Mirage]

@Cathar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_suicide

Hey, article in English =P
Apparently guys are more violent in the method that's why they are more succesful in killing themselves, despite female attempts more often. In this case, this hardly proves male live a more stressful life.

On the war part, Keyword is "Majority". I did not imply that there is no war in this world. However, I did imply that the statistic about female living longer than man in most countries, majority of those countries are not in war.

And again, I donno where you get the idea that women don't pave roads and don't constructs buildings. You'd be surprised at how in some countries, women do work hard labors like men, for example China. In China, male are often more loved due to the fact that they carry the family surname. Female in China work like beasts, while male... well, the one I see were smoking and playing card games. Or maybe you can argue male smoke more, so they are more likely to die than female? lol

[Cathar]

Apparently guys are more violent in the method that's why they are more succesful in killing themselves, despite female attempts more often. In this case, this hardly proves male live a more stressful life.

Well it means suicide shorten men's statistics life more than women. Of course women can be stressed - but still their "suicide" sounds like "help calls" according to you.

Edit : The fact is a dead man cannot make a second attempt. That's maybe why there more men successful suicides, and less attempts in general, don't you agree ?

In China, male are often more loved due to the fact that they carry the family surname. Female in China work like beasts, while male... well, the one I see were smoking and playing card games. Or maybe you can argue male smoke more, so they are more likely to die than female? lol

China is the subject of my thesis. The problem in mainland china about gender, is the fact that men are more loved... because they are working at the fields, therefore are regarded as needing more consideration than women that stay at home. Saying women are working like beasts in china is complete nonsense. They are disregarded, yes. They are considered as inferior to males by confucean filial piety, yes. But they are far far FAR to be working as much as men. And that is precisely the problem about women condition in China.

Edit : I think I sound a little aggressive. I'm not, and if I look like, I'll ask you to pardon me.

[papillon]

This is a joke I use to tease my feminist friends ; "you don't suffer from patriarchy as much as I do" (it effectively reduces my lifespan).

While arguing over who gets hurt MORE is best left as a joke (because trying to weigh things up is pretty much impossible), "the patriarchy hurts men too" is also a common phrase on my Crazy Feminist Blogs.

The weight of expectations is problematic for everybody.

[Cathar]

Yeah, of course, I'm not taking this seriously myself.
Still it's a fun way to be beaten to death.

[fortaat]

A small clarification before I begin - I agree that both genes and sociology play a part; I don't agree sociology has a greater impact. I don't think one can make a clear distinction between the two when examining causes of death, since some sociological behavior is motivated by genes.
with that in mind...

If you read french, I can send you my essay on this, if you are interested in.

Unless everything is demonstrated with a small blue dog, I don't think I can read it

You said "worldwide studies shows that women are living longer, so that negates the sociological explanation", and I answered "worldwide society are (more or less) patriarchal, and I'm suspecting patriarchy to be at the origin of reduction of men lifespan (I mean, for *obvious* reasons ; because they are dying in war, from accident on dangerous works, because they have to work to feed their families while woman work is FAR to be a general situation, therefore live a tiring life, suicides -twice more frequents on men than women and so on). So how can you seriously separate biology from society in these conditions ?

I can't.
I just doubt patriarchy is true for the entire world, and all causes of death you mentioned change from one society to the other.
War - Not true for most of the world.
Accident on dangerous works - is it a leading cause of death in the western world?
Suicide - it's certainly a strong point, but suicides comprise only 1.5% of deaths.
woman work is FAR to be a general situation - true, but do men really work more in every country in the world (I honestly couldn't find data on this one)?
This leaves a minority of countries where women work equally, if not more, in which we would expect both genders to die at the same average time.
In the modern world women and men are closer to job equality, and I don't agree men work significantly more in dangerous physical jobs. Admittedly, we wouldn't see the affect of the job equality until people actually start to die, which will take at least ten more years (from 1950).

Genetic causes of death are true for the entire world, so they're more likely to explain why the "death gap" is true around the world. Men die older only in 5/191 states - and biggest gap is in Niger, where man die a year older. The average gap around the world is 1.96 years in favor of women.
I don't believe all 186 countries are patriarchal.

Here's some not so useful data, which shows genetic causes of death in which men take the lead - Infectious and parasitic diseases, heart disease, cancer.

we'll argue on biology and lifespan for days, and after, what will it change on our way of thinking ? What does this implicate in terms of political terms ? Nothing. Philosophy, ethics, metaphysics ? Neither.

I guess we're just different. I learn a lot from these kind of discussions, and often change my views accordingly, politics included.
In this case, I still believe genetics have the upper hand, though now I think I belittled the sociological impact on the gap.

Also, as far as I know, it's an establish medical fact that high testosterone levels are directly bad for health (for example heart) so it could be one reason for shortened lifespan, especially in the older aged people
Or am I wrong?

As far as I understand, those high testosterone levels are only found in body builders. As dangerous as it may be, it only affects a very small percentage of men.

[Cathar]

Unless everything is demonstrated with a small blue dog, I don't think I can read it

Erf. I'll translate it, or re-write it. Someday =c

Here's some not so useful data, which shows genetic causes of death in which men take the lead - Infectious and parasitic diseases, heart disease, cancer.

Of course. But after a quick look at it, we can notice interesting facts. I'm copy/pasting them if you don't mind.

Violence
Men 14.2
Women 3.7
Difference x3.84

Intentional injuries
Men 37.0
Women 14.9
Difference x2.48

Unintentional injuries
Men 73.7
Women 40.2
Difference x1.8

War
Men 5.0
Women 0.5
Difference : x10

The leading causes you are mentionning don't seems to show relevant gender-related differences, at least, they are far to be as much prononced (around x0.1).
A good difference can be seen at the "Cyrrosis" death type, which affect mostly people who drink a lot. Use of alcohol and drugs seems to be mostly masculine.
Well, anyway, the problem with statistics, in a case like in the other, is they are not speaking by themselves, they must go with interpretation, and, well. It's quite frustrating when my fellow debater use stats, and not really rejoycing me when I do the same...

Still, theese statistics confirms what I'm hardly trying to say : patriarchy asks men to take the risks in a general way -socially, but is also leading to destructive behaviour - and then, it makes them die younger statistically.

I'm ready to admit there is a gene-related difference, but I see no proofs of it elsewhere.