Do I look fat in this dress?

[neowired]

I'm pretty skinny. Both skinny and fat people can look pretty sexy, they can also both look ugly.
It's all a matter of perception.

Being fat is generally more unhealthy and people who are overweight should (obviously) be under the care of doctors making sure they are as healthy as it gets. Fat people should also look for ways to be less fat, if they care for their own lives.

Same for unhealthy underweight people

Most people have a broken perception of what it means to be unhealthy overweight or unhealthy underweight

If you know your boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever is under/overweight and generally lives an unhealthy life, you should be bothered and keep encouraging the person to change it, even if it means sometimes being hurtful

If you know the person has a medical condition he/she actively battles with his/hers whole life, you should encourage the persons self-esteem when needed, even if it means a bit of lying or stretching the truth.

Isn't this what love and caring is about?

[papillon]

Being fat is generally more unhealthy and people who are overweight should (obviously) be under the care of doctors making sure they are as healthy as it gets. Fat people should also look for ways to be less fat, if they care for their own lives.

Do you also believe that all men should be obviously under the care of doctors at all times trying to look for ways to become less male, since men statistically die earlier than women?

How about short people? Should short people be obviously under the care of doctors and constantly trying to find ways to be less short, since short people statistically have slightly worse outcomes on many studies than tall people?

If I show you studies that demonstrate that being in the overweight category means that statistically you actually live LONGER than people in the 'normal' weight category, will you suddenly go out and try to make yourself overweight? I certainly hope not!

CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. There are a BILLION studies where someone desperate to publish a paper has analysed a bunch of unreliable self-reported surveys and noticed that people in category X are 2% more likely to Blip than people in category Y, and this ends up in the newspapers as "Category X Causes Blip!" which is... insane. That suggests, at best, that category X is worthy of study to SEE what effect it actually has on Blip. Was this result random? Does the same result happen if X is artificially created? If a study shows that blonde people are less likely to get chicken pox, this doesn't mean that bleaching your hair will have the same benefit, because it could be that the genetic baseline which caused people to be blonde in the first place also provided the natural benefit, not the hair color itself. It has to be tested properly in order to find out.

Individuals are individuals. Some fat people are incredibly unhealthy. Some skinny people are incredibly unhealthy. Some fat people are vegetarians and climb mountains. Some skinny people are vegetarians and climb mountains. Some people are vegetarians and climb mountains and still have horrible diseases! You _cannot_ tell by looking at someone what their health situation is.

Now, if you know your partner is unhealthy because you live with them and see their lifestyle, then sure, encouraging them to be healthier is a good thing to do. It still has to be done carefully, though, because *stress* has pretty bad health effects itself, so actually being hurtful is probably counterproductive.

[neowired]

Being fat is generally more unhealthy and people who are overweight should (obviously) be under the care of doctors making sure they are as healthy as it gets. Fat people should also look for ways to be less fat, if they care for their own lives.

Do you also believe that all men should be obviously under the care of doctors at all times trying to look for ways to become less male, since men statistically die earlier than women?

How about short people? Should short people be obviously under the care of doctors and constantly trying to find ways to be less short, since short people statistically have slightly worse outcomes on many studies than tall people?

If I show you studies that demonstrate that being in the overweight category means that statistically you actually live LONGER than people in the 'normal' weight category, will you suddenly go out and try to make yourself overweight? I certainly hope not!

CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. There are a BILLION studies where someone desperate to publish a paper has analysed a bunch of unreliable self-reported surveys and noticed that people in category X are 2% more likely to Blip than people in category Y, and this ends up in the newspapers as "Category X Causes Blip!" which is... insane. That suggests, at best, that category X is worthy of study to SEE what effect it actually has on Blip. Was this result random? Does the same result happen if X is artificially created? If a study shows that blonde people are less likely to get chicken pox, this doesn't mean that bleaching your hair will have the same benefit, because it could be that the genetic baseline which caused people to be blonde in the first place also provided the natural benefit, not the hair color itself. It has to be tested properly in order to find out.

Individuals are individuals. Some fat people are incredibly unhealthy. Some skinny people are incredibly unhealthy. Some fat people are vegetarians and climb mountains. Some skinny people are vegetarians and climb mountains. Some people are vegetarians and climb mountains and still have horrible diseases! You _cannot_ tell by looking at someone what their health situation is.

Now, if you know your partner is unhealthy because you live with them and see their lifestyle, then sure, encouraging them to be healthier is a good thing to do. It still has to be done carefully, though, because *stress* has pretty bad health effects itself, so actually being hurtful is probably counterproductive.

Being overweight or underweight is generally unhealthy, no need to argue this

Are you going to argue with me that being overweight doesn't influence many health problems like problems with joints or blood pressure? Why would you argue this?

Saying men are unhealthy because they are men is some very weird and twisted logic. But if you can prove to me that men who undergo a sex change are healthier then I may agree with you, although you would also need to count all the negative side effects of such a change process (hormone therapy, operation complications, etc).

The positive side effect of being underweight could be a longer life span due to slower division of cells.
I suppose being overweight could be good if you live in a very cold country with bad living condition, as a matter of better survival

Underweight people should be under the care of dietitians just like overweight people should. It's only sensible thing to do. Unless you don't care if you will die at 40 because of a heart attack.

I don't care if the statistics say cutting of your head makes live longer. I do care for people to live a healthy lifestyle.
Everyone (intelligent) knows statistics lie. Everyone intelligent (I hope) also knows that being under or overweight carries certain health risque's

If you don't care about your health than you can of course do whatever you wish, take drugs, smoke, drink liters of vodka daily, really, jump from a building to test the quality of the concrete, it's not my problem, it's your life

[Jake]

Being overweight or underweight is unhealthy, no need to argue this fact

Are you going to argue with me that being overweight doesn't influence many health problems like problems with joints or blood pressure? Why would you argue this?

The problem isn't the notion that being overweight is generally unhealthy, the problem is the absolutism.

Simple example: person X has a genetic aberration. The aberration causes them to generally sit around 120% of the 'normal' weight. The aberration also means they are more likely to die sooner than the norm regardless of what weight they are - it's the underlying problem which causes their reduced life expectancy and their weight.

So if this is the case, why constantly bug that person to lose weight if their choice is actually between "live less time than everyone else and eat how you want" or "live less time than everyone else and also be miserable because you feel like you have to diet all the time and constantly watch your weight and never enjoy your food"?

I'm not saying that this kind of thing is the case for all fat people, and I'm not saying that we should look for excuses to allow people to be fat when they in fact would be more healthy if they ate better or exercised more or whatever. But as Papillon said, just looking at someone telling you "being over weight X or BMI Y or fat/muscle ratio Z is generally bad for you" and deciding that every overweight person would be better off if they were thinner is shortsighted.

If I catch ebola then forget it, I'm eating whatever the hell I like and not exercising, it won't affect my life expectancy - and anyone who makes a point of coming into my isolation tent and telling me I should lose weight risks getting their suit opened.

[neowired]

So if this is the case, why constantly bug that person to lose weight

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you should bug anyone about this shit. I just said people with such problems should be under the care of medical service of some sort, a dietitian, or whoever else.

I'm sure professional medical care knows much better when to do what when considering overweight or underweight than I do.

But if I would care about someone I would like to know about his/hers medical problems and make sure he/she has all the help he/she can get related to his/hers problems

[papillon]

Being overweight or underweight is generally unhealthy, no need to argue this

Well, yes, there *is* a need to argue this. As I hinted, there are actually some studies showing longevity is increased in the category currently known as "overweight" - I believe it went something like overweight, normal weight, obese, morbidly obese, underweight in terms of categories and death rates. Of course it's all a matter of how you draw the boundaries, and even if a category in general is more long-lived it doesn't mean every individual in that category is.

Are you going to argue with me that being overweight doesn't influence many health problems like problems with joints or blood pressure? Why would you argue this?

Because "influence" is an incredibly vague word that means little?

Saying men are unhealthy because they are men is some very weird and twisted logic.

It's cold hard data - women live longer than men. Several years longer on average.

But if you can prove to me that men who undergo a sex change are healthier then I may agree with you, although you would also need to count all the negative side effects of such a change process (hormone therapy, operation complications, etc).

See, that's exactly the point I'm making! Women live longer than men on average. That DOES NOT MEAN that trying to turn men into women would make them also live longer. It's theoretically possible that it might, especially if you could get past the side effects of the change and the health problems that would be caused by the social side effects as well, but it is not currently possible to study that in a scientifically sound manner.

But changing men, even if we could do it safely, might not give them the same benefits as having been born women to begin with. And even if it did, it would be crazy to try and demand all men stop being men in order to maybe gain a few years longer in life... a statistical benefit that might not do anything for the individual.

Underweight people should be under the care of dietitians just like overweight people should. It's only sensible thing to do. Unless you don't care if you will die at 40 because of a heart attack.

You know, most people I know of who died under the age of 40 from heart attacks were normal-weight active people. And I know a hell of a lot of people who are not normal-weight active people who did not die at 40.

Not only is that sort of thinking false, it's also counterproductive. As a *small child* I had people nagging at me that I was obviously going to die before I was 30. (And not that it matters, but I wasn't exactly a huge balloon of a child either, just sort of pudgy) Do you know what that does to a little kid's head? For many years I actively didn't give a shit about my health because I was sure I was going to die young anyway - I intentionally ignored advice because I figured there was no point. And they were wrong anyway, I'm over 30 now.

I don't care if the statistics say cutting of your head makes live longer. I do care for people to live a healthy lifestyle.
Everyone (intelligent) knows statistics lie. Everyone intelligent (I hope) also knows that being under or overweight carries certain health risque's

So... how exactly are you deriving the knowledge of what is a "healthy lifestyle", then? Vague "common knowledge" of what's "obviously" right and wrong? Common popular ideas of what is and isn't healthy have changed drastically over time. You know that, right?

[neowired]

It's cold hard data - women live longer than men. Several years longer on average.

But we can't really say why. Could be because men are more exploited ; p. Although high levels of testosterone are overall bad for the life expectancy, for various reasons

And even if it did, it would be crazy to try and demand all men stop being men in order to maybe gain a few years longer in life... a statistical benefit that might not do anything for the individual.

I wouldn't mind doing something if the benefits outnumbered the negatives.

You know, most people I know of who died under the age of 40 from heart attacks were normal-weight active people. And I know a hell of a lot of people who are not normal-weight active people who did not die at 40.

But that sort of knowledge doesn't really prove anything does it? Unless you consider all the facts included, like how and why they died and stuff.
The fact that someone will live up to 70 even with an unhealthy lifestyle also doesn't disprove the possibility that this person would live to 90 with a more healthy lifestyle (doesn't prove it either though)

So... how exactly are you deriving the knowledge of what is a "healthy lifestyle", then? Vague "common knowledge" of what's "obviously" right and wrong? Common popular ideas of what is and isn't healthy have changed drastically over time. You know that, right?

Oh from various sources like, the consensus of medical authorities, my own knowledge about human body, and common sense, among other things?

I wouldn't say common knowledge as I agree the common knowledge is full of ridiculous things. I would also agree that medical authorities sometimes are wrong. So it's like you mix all the things and use your own common sense, medical knowledge and common knowledge to reach your own judgment of the situation.

At least that's how I do it.

I try to get all reachable information before I judge some specific case, and come to my own conclusions.

How do you do it then?

[Cathar]

I feel sad that the debate, though interesting at its start as a critic of common tropes on overweight gals, derived on a lifespan statistic study. Statistics can tell « normal » weight persons live longer than over-weighed ones, of course ; because they have an « healthier lifestyle » ? Or because overweight persons are subject to stress and traumas, due to the fact they are considered as ugly monsters in a general way ? @neowired : Cholesterol, responsible of the main part of blood pressure issue and heart attacks, is completely invisible without a blood test. There are different types of fat, and the one who makes butts larger and hips wider is FAR to be the most dangerous.
Women live longer than men, because their genetics are different ? Or maybe it's due to the fact they are comparatively less working than men, therefor less subject to stress and physical exhaustion ? Statistics *may be* done with honest goals and serious methods ; but they are completely blind to the important questions behind the numbers.

And seriously, each time I heard something like “you should make sport, it's unhealthy to be fat”, I understand the same thing : “I am socially inapt to accept you as you are, and as biopoliticr/ general caring gives me the right to regard your health and looking, it would be a good thing for you to change”.

According to me, that's the real problem that should be pointed here...


Sorry for my english.

[neowired]

I feel sad that the debate, though interesting at its start as a critic of common tropes on overweight gals, derived on a lifespan statistic study. Statistics can tell « normal » weight persons live longer than over-weighed ones, of course ; because they have an « healthier lifestyle » ? Or because overweight persons are subject to stress and traumas, due to the fact they are considered as ugly monsters in a general way ? @neowired : Cholesterol, responsible of the main part of blood pressure issue and heart attacks, is completely invisible without a blood test. There are different types of fat, and the one who makes butts larger and hips wider is FAR to be the most dangerous.
Women live longer than men, because their genetics are different ? Or maybe it's due to the fact they are comparatively less working than men, therefor less subject to stress and physical exhaustion ? Statistics *may be* done with honest goals and serious methods ; but they are completely blind to the important questions behind the numbers.

And seriously, each time I heard something like “you should make sport, it's unhealthy to be fat”, I understand the same thing : “I am socially inapt to accept you as you are, and as biopoliticr/ general caring gives me the right to regard your health and looking, it would be a good thing for you to change”.

According to me, that's the real problem that should be pointed here...


Sorry for my english.

Statistics are just statistics, they prove or disprove if there is some correlation between some elements. Within a limited group, in a specified timeline. They generally don't explain anything. People often conclude completely opposite things even from the same statistical data.

But you know, all that aside. There ARE cases when someone is fat just because he/she eats lots of junk food and lives an overall unhealthy lifestyle. Does that mean you are supposed to keep quiet and not say anything, even if that person is your friend or family?

I assume that's not what you think, but feel free to prove me wrong.

[papillon]

It's cold hard data - women live longer than men. Several years longer on average.

But we can't really say why. Could be because men are more exploited ; p. Although high levels of testosterone are overall bad for the life expectancy, for various reasons

No, we can't really say why. We can make guesses. They could be completely wrong. It's a bad idea to make a guess and then try to formulate orders for the whole world based on that guess.

And even if it did, it would be crazy to try and demand all men stop being men in order to maybe gain a few years longer in life... a statistical benefit that might not do anything for the individual.

I wouldn't mind doing something if the benefits outnumbered the negatives.

If I ruled the world and you *wanted* to be able to try and get a sex change purely in the hopes that it would improve your health slightly, I wouldn't stop you. But I would object to you or anyone else making the decision that "there's a tiny potential statistical benefit to this option, therefore EVERYONE should do it. Don't You Care About Your Health????"

We don't know that it would actually do any good, and even if the operation itself were perfectly safe and painless (which it isn't now), many people would NOT consider their gender a fair sacrifice for a few potential years of life.

You know, most people I know of who died under the age of 40 from heart attacks were normal-weight active people. And I know a hell of a lot of people who are not normal-weight active people who did not die at 40.

But that sort of knowledge doesn't really prove anything does it? Unless you consider all the facts included, like how and why they died and stuff.
The fact that someone will live up to 70 even with an unhealthy lifestyle also doesn't disprove the possibility that this person would live to 90 with a more healthy lifestyle (doesn't prove it either though)

Exactly - we DON'T KNOW. Being "good" doesn't guarantee your safety, being "bad" doesn't guarantee your dangers. You have to make your own decisions in life based on what you think is best for you.

Oh from various sources like, the consensus of medical authorities, my own knowledge about human body, and common sense, among other things?

I wouldn't say common knowledge as I agree the common knowledge is full of ridiculous things. I would also agree that medical authorities sometimes are wrong. So it's like you mix all the things and use your own common sense, medical knowledge and common knowledge to reach your own judgment of the situation.

At least that's how I do it.

I try to get all reachable information before I judge some specific case, and come to my own conclusions.

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But then, you also have to recognise that not everyone is going to come to the exact same conclusions that you do. People are different, people think differently, people's bodies behave differently. What's best for you isn't necessarily best for others.

[neowired]

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But then, you also have to recognise that not everyone is going to come to the exact same conclusions that you do. People are different, people think differently, people's bodies behave differently. What's best for you isn't necessarily best for others.

I'm sure everyone with any common sense recognizes that

[fortaat]

Saying men are unhealthy because they are men is some very weird and twisted logic.

Women live longer than men, because their genetics are different ? Or maybe it's due to the fact they are comparatively less working than men, therefor less subject to stress and physical exhaustion ? Statistics *may be* done with honest goals and serious methods ; but they are completely blind to the important questions behind the numbers.

Women around the world live longer than man. This negates the any sociological explanations, and means it's all about the genes.
Recomended read, notice half the disorders impact man more than women. Y-linked disorders don't affect women.

[Cathar]

Women around the world live longer than man. This negates the any sociological explanations, and means it's all about the genes.
Recomended read, notice half the disorders impact man more than women. Y-linked disorders don't affect women.

Please name me a matriarcal country where women are working more than men to end your argument, cause I don't see any around the world – and please notice that men are immune against breast cancer.
Still, I don't want to enter in any silly “man against woman” discussion, because it's just plain boring. We can discuss it if you want, for you not to think I'm running away, but life expectancy debates was especially what I was deploring in my previous post – because they are totally sterile.

But you know, all that aside. There ARE cases when someone is fat just because he/she eats lots of junk food and lives an overall unhealthy lifestyle. Does that mean you are supposed to keep quiet and not say anything, even if that person is your friend or family?

That is more interesting to me. Yes, they are cases of self destructive behavior, of suicidal tendencies, on slow self destruction and so on – and when you see a friend having a self destructive behavior, it is of course your duty to help him or her.
But the question is not IF, but HOW will you help him/her. Making someone ashamed of how he/she looks, or afraid of the deadly consequences of his/her way of life, instead of wondering why he/she act this way, is just counter-productive. It generates stress and anguish – while stress and anguish are usually at the start of addicted behaviors (to junk food, but also to alcohol and tobacco).

Even if I agree it's not a good thing to keep quiet when you have a friend that have an obvious need of help, I think it's always bad to have a paternalist attitude toward adult people.

I assume that's not what you think, but feel free to prove me wrong.

Same here, and sorry for my english.

[papillon]

and please notice that men are immune against breast cancer

They aren't immune actually. It's just very rare.

[Cathar]

and please notice that men are immune against breast cancer

They aren't immune actually. It's just very rare.

Let's call it "a very very powerful resilience".