Created Works in Progress - Otome

[papillon]

I didn't like Fantasia, Date Warp (which is more typical of the type of otome I avoid), and Rock Band for different reasons, none of were specifically "IT'S GxB EW".

So the typical type of otome you avoid is one in which the romance is distinctly secondary to the plot and the vast majority of endings are

bad or bittersweet, with at least one character dying in all but one ending?

Admittedly you're working on a horror game, which would indeed be less sweet than that, but in general terms that's certainly not higher than average on a sweet scale. Is it typical of the GxB board? Maybe their games are darker than I'd realised and I should look at more of the WIPs...

Again, I'm not arguing that you should like the game, but while you say you're not prejudging it just because there's a girl and there are guys, it does kinda feel that way. I've elsewhere had gamers take one look at DW/FH, seen a lead character who was female and not a big-titted stripper, and immediately declare that the game was "only for eight-year-old girls". Some 8yos enjoy human sacrifice, gay sex, and illegal drugs, but c'mon.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with you personally not liking GxB games. But I'm worried by the notion that there's a large number of people who are assuming "there's a girl PC so it must be fluffy".

Also, otome seems to have a strikingly different meaning on this forum than the original Japanese reference...

Not *that* different, afaik? I admit to having only the silly fangirl's knowledge of Japanese, but I see the term on Japanese game sites too. And while the average Japanese heroine is more of a useless damsel-in-distress than the English gamers tend to prefer, there are still some unusual cases.

[kinougames]

Er, so you know. I do understand Japanese ^^' I am not arguing the meaning of Otome in Japanese, whether it's virgin maiden or not. I am saying that Otome Games generally associated with Gyaku-Harem rather than game with virgin girls. Some stuff will sound stupid if you translated it literally.

I wasn't saying that otome games = virgin girls...though you have to admit the main character is usually the stereotypical otome, which is likely why they started using it that way.

While I agree with this (like the usage of the word Hentai), "Otome Games" is the correct term used in Japan for many GxB games in Lemmasoft. It is a term coined by Japanese used in Japan, not something magically created by Western people.

I agree with this, but a lot of the games that people are complaining about getting stereotyped wouldn't be considered otome in Japan. (Which is why I said "a lot of games posted on this forum" specifically because I do not like typical otome.)

[kinougames]

So the typical type of otome you avoid is one in which the romance is distinctly secondary to the plot and the vast majority of endings are

bad or bittersweet, with at least one character dying in all but one ending?

Admittedly you're working on a horror game, which would indeed be less sweet than that, but in general terms that's certainly not higher than average on a sweet scale. Is it typical of the GxB board? Maybe their games are darker than I'd realised and I should look at more of the WIPs...

Again, I'm not arguing that you should like the game, but while you say you're not prejudging it just because there's a girl and there are guys, it does kinda feel that way. I've elsewhere had gamers take one look at DW/FH, seen a lead character who was female and not a big-titted stripper, and immediately declare that the game was "only for eight-year-old girls". Some 8yos enjoy human sacrifice, gay sex, and illegal drugs, but c'mon.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with you personally not liking GxB games. But I'm worried by the notion that there's a large number of people who are assuming "there's a girl PC so it must be fluffy".

Sadness and bittersweetness doesn't mean it's not sugary, besides, nor does death. The death in Ripples was as sugary as they come, and that was -technically- a BxG, and I made my noises at it.

You do not think those stories were sugary, but they are to me. I wouldn't call them "above average sugar", but I like far far far below average sugar, down to the negative sugar row, so yes, from way down here, they looked sugary. I wouldn't play those exact same stories if they were GxG or BxB or BxG because I simply do not like them. It's mere preference. (I need a VN about a chick like Integra Hellsing!) I pass over all the sugary looking stories in the WIP forums; it just so happens that since the WIP forums were being overtaken by GxB, I ended up avoiding those most heavily.

[Jake]

Obviously there's nothing wrong with you personally not liking GxB games. But I'm worried by the notion that there's a large number of people who are assuming "there's a girl PC so it must be fluffy".

It seems to me that this never used to be the case.

It also seems to me that if this is even the case now, it started to be the assumption around about the same time that a couple of people started making noise about how games-for-girls were in a minority and therefore needed special nurturing treatment (unlike, say, mystery games - which are still in a minority).

When you make a fuss about something with a couple of examples, people will start to associate your fuss with the thing, and the examples. So if a fuss was made of games for girls when there were a couple of fluffy games for girls around, that's what sticks.




It seems to me that it's far better to treat any and all games the same. Comment on them and play them if you like them, ignore them if you don't. As far as I can see there have been efforts recently by a couple of people to promote games-by-girls just because they're by girls; now there are lots of games by-and-for girls and someone's noticed and done something [clumsy] to try and support that: well done.




Seriously - I see absolutely no reason to view it as anything other than something clumsy done with good intentions. Complain that it's segregation and that it should be reversed by all means, I'll agree with you. But ranting about prejudice and ostracisation and so on with the constant thematic accusation that men want to stamp down on girls making games is presuming malice with no evidence - and projecting malice onto a large number of forum members who carry none.

I'm male, therefore I'm never ever going to go into the Otome WiP forum and give feedback? That is prejudice.

[Aashtarsrain]

This post supports the fellowship of "Ladies,-don't-project-malice-onto-us-poor-men-we-like-your-games-and-we-may-even-buy-them-some-day " request.

[papillon]

You do not think those stories were sugary, but they are to me. I wouldn't call them "above average sugar", but I like far far far below average sugar, down to the negative sugar row, so yes, from way down here, they looked sugary.

*grin* True that! Looking forward to trying yours when it's done...

But ranting about prejudice and ostracisation and so on with the constant thematic accusation that men want to stamp down on girls making games is presuming malice with no evidence - and projecting malice onto a large number of forum members who carry none.

The "must be for 8yos" has *actually happened* to me multiple times, although thankfully not on this forum. Thus my nervousness that such a thought pattern might be SPREADING! But looks like it's all right.

Enh. Anyway. I guess I should move the existing thread over to the girl section and create a *new* thread for the next series entry when it goes Boy's Side?

[fortaat]

The "must be for 8yos" has *actually happened* to me multiple times, although thankfully not on this forum.

This is an extension of "anime is for kids", not male prejudice against GXB games.
No offense, but the art style you picked looks somewhat childish - over saturated bright colors, intentionally cute designs. Even if your plot is meant for adults, since most people invest 10 seconds in your product, the art will compose the first impression.

[lepapillonrouge]

Otome definitely means maiden, but there's a heavy, heavy implication of "virgin" with the word, so while "maiden" doesn't necessarily have that connotation in English, it does in Japanese, and is often used to hint at virgin without using the more obvious "baajin" (virgin in katakana).

When I hear "otome game" on this forum, the anti-harem was the exact game I thought of, and in the Japanese versions of those games, the girl has a certain personality and wants to do certain things. Yes, the focus was on the boyfriends you could get, but the heroine is usually a schoolgirlish, I-wanna-be-a-wife type. You wouldn't see a strong female lawyer as the main character in an otome game.

Oh...so when you think of an otome game heroine, you think of that nice schoolgirl heroine who wants to please the guys kind of person~?

Interesting.

Amusingly, a complaint that I hear about Japanese otome games in the English speaking fandom is that the main heroine is too flat of a character, and girls only play the game because of the hot guys. Also, there are times where the heroine is put into situations where the player would want a choice where they can fight against a particular boy instead of just submitting to their will and hope nothing bad happens. When you think about it, maybe that's why the otome game heroines of games around here have a stronger personality.

Heh. I'd love to see a super dark otome game. See how many people play that one.

[kinougames]

Oh...so when you think of an otome game heroine, you think of that nice schoolgirl heroine who wants to please the guys kind of person~?

Interesting.

Your typical JVN otome heroine is usually a Yuuki Miaka or a Tsukino Usagi genki girl type, so yeah. She doesn't necessarily want to please the guys (sometimes you get a "man-hater" stereotype), but she usually IS a schoolgirl with a fairly happy personality, maybe some "flaws" that involve her eating too much or being poor in school or being tsundere, and a hot bod all the guys totally want despite her apparently doing nothing but eat, think about boys, and sleep.

Amusingly, a complaint that I hear about Japanese otome games in the English speaking fandom is that the main heroine is too flat of a character, and girls only play the game because of the hot guys. Also, there are times where the heroine is put into situations where the player would want a choice where they can fight against a particular boy instead of just submitting to their will and hope nothing bad happens. When you think about it, maybe that's why the otome game heroines of games around here have a stronger personality.

Heh. I'd love to see a super dark otome game. See how many people play that one.

This is pretty much correct of typical JVN otome games. Even in my game, which is not an otome game at all, I threw my ladies bodily away from that stereotype in favor of girls who are more badass femme fatales, with dubious, here/there sexualities (there is BxG, GxG AND BxB in my game) and often fiercely sage-wise wisdom.

*grin* True that! Looking forward to trying yours when it's done...

Hahaha. Well, you should know that as I wrote this, I got emotional pretty often. The story is definitely not for the light-hearted, and I might can the 16+ version overall because of it. It starts off as such a funny story and basically takes a sharp u-turn at UpShits Creek and then doubles back and hits a fire hydrant on OhGodNoWhy Lane about half way through.

[Aleema]

It remains that there is only one new forum, and that is for GxB. As one of the moved developers (and being denied the choice to go back), it is easy to feel pushed away and ostracized. Those are real feelings and I'm allowed to have them. The reasoning for this change was so that BxG and whatnot could be happier. Denying them that would be selfish. But that means there was indeed a "it doesn't interest me, so it goes here" attitude -- there is no doubt about that in my mind. But because PyTom has recognized that GxB threads do have different posting tendencies, and he has decided NOT to nuke the forum as a result of him not finding BxG easily, I should be grateful that he has decided to let GxB developers/players support each other in their individual way. The consequence is a playpen. But compared to the other options, I will have to accept it for now. So long as GxB games are treated as equal and legitimate games as the rest, and that the GxB forum is not viewed as a second-class forum (it was placed on the main list, another thing I am grateful for), then I can be at least willing to try out the forum for its alloted testing time. Do I wish us to all coexist in the same place? Damn right I do. I would love for GxB not to be considered an epidemic in need of quarantine. But I can't think of any non-destructive solutions to get both parties what they want at this time. A phpBB hack is optimal, but it would need to be solid and reliable to last many years. This solution doesn't delete posts or scrutinize posting habits. It's just a rejection feeling on my part. Maybe it will go away once time proves that nothing much will change?

[jack_norton]

For what is worth, I don't think Otome is necessarily fluffy/cute/girly stuff. I honestly check the screenshots of the game first, then read the synopsis/description and based on that I decide if to download the game or not.

[kinougames]

It remains that there is only one new forum, and that is for GxB. As one of the moved developers (and being denied the choice to go back), it is easy to feel pushed away and ostracized. Those are real feelings and I'm allowed to have them. The reasoning for this change was so that BxG and whatnot could be happier. Denying them that would be selfish. But that means there was indeed a "it doesn't interest me, so it goes here" attitude -- there is no doubt about that in my mind. But because PyTom has recognized that GxB threads do have different posting tendencies, and he has decided NOT to nuke the forum as a result of him not finding BxG easily, I should be grateful that he has decided to let GxB developers/players support each other in their individual way. The consequence is a playpen. But compared to the other options, I will have to accept it for now. So long as GxB games are treated as equal and legitimate games as the rest, and that the GxB forum is not viewed as a second-class forum (it was placed on the main list, another thing I am grateful for), then I can be at least willing to try out the forum for its alloted testing time. Do I wish us to all coexist in the same place? Damn right I do. I would love for GxB not to be considered an epidemic in need of quarantine. But I can't think of any non-destructive solutions to get both parties what they want at this time. A phpBB hack is optimal, but it would need to be solid and reliable to last many years. This solution doesn't delete posts or scrutinize posting habits. It's just a rejection feeling on my part. Maybe it will go away once time proves that nothing much will change?

Your comments are seriously non-indicative of the actual feelings on GxB on this forum...considering that PyTom said that it was the second most clicked through forum. Obviously those people who support GxB aren't going anywhere. You're entitled to your feelings, but it's best if you at least attempt to base them in fact.

For what is worth, I don't think Otome is necessarily fluffy/cute/girly stuff. I honestly check the screenshots of the game first, then read the synopsis/description and based on that I decide if to download the game or not.

You mean otome as the word is used in this forum.

[Wintermoon]

But because PyTom has recognized that GxB threads do have different posting tendencies, and he has decided NOT to nuke the forum as a result of him not finding BxG easily, I should be grateful that he has decided to let GxB developers/players support each other in their individual way.

These posting tendencies absolutely do not apply to all GxB. My hypothesis is that it's actually bishounen games - games where part of the draw of the game is looking at and potentially romancing gorgeous guys - that generate these posting tendencies. This correlates with GxB, but there are plenty of GxB games that are not bishounen games and vice versa.

Let me mention The Dreaming again - a horror game, clearly aimed at horror fans, but GxB. It is not an otome game nor a bishounen game. The fact that it is GxB is completely irrelevant to the enjoyment of the game. And yet, because it is GxB, it gets thrown in with all of the bishounen games. People like kinougames who like horror won't see it because it is buried among the bishounen games. People who do see it will be disappointed because it isn't a bishounen game. Only people who ignore this forum division will be satisfied.

[Aleema]

I agree. Totally. (Though to assume it's bishounen games as well is also over-generalization.)
The problem was that the most active topics seemed to have a particular taste to them. Anyone without that taste, I guess, felt bad or something. Was there other tastes present and active? Absolutely! The only problem was that it was, um, kinda annoying to scroll past the first few topics? I guess. The mainest of main reasons this is happening is because PyTom wants to encourage healthy discussion in WIP threads, and if people can't find the threads they're interested in discussing, then that was big enough cause for him to do that. Whether it's fair reasoning or not is up to individuals to decide. In the end, it's still fully his decision.

[playswithtribbles]

Completely disregarding all of the comments above. (Too lazy to read through....)

Just wanted to say I really like this development. It just makes finding what your looking for easier. Though I'll personally keep looking in both wip sections. I'll play anything as long as it has a good plot. (Huge RPG fan.)

I'm just looking forward to the day enough people are making/interested in VN's that we'll have to have a different wip section for every genre out there... Just picture it.... Light Fantasy section, Dark Fantasy section, Modern Sci-Fi section, Futuristic Sci-Fi section, Pipe Dreams section (for weird games reminiscent of Katamari Damachi), Py-Tom section (for games that include the renpy forum cast (Lucy, Eileen, ect.), Taco section (For games who's main plot focuses around tacos), ect...

Yep.. I'm done now.