Created Works in Progress - Otome

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sayuri
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#76 Post by sayuri » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:20 pm

playswithtribbles wrote:Completely disregarding all of the comments above. (Too lazy to read through....)

Just wanted to say I really like this development. It just makes finding what your looking for easier. Though I'll personally keep looking in both wip sections. I'll play anything as long as it has a good plot. (Huge RPG fan.)

I'm just looking forward to the day enough people are making/interested in VN's that we'll have to have a different wip section for every genre out there... Just picture it.... Light Fantasy section, Dark Fantasy section, Modern Sci-Fi section, Futuristic Sci-Fi section, Pipe Dreams section (for weird games reminiscent of Katamari Damachi), Py-Tom section (for games that include the renpy forum cast (Lucy, Eileen, ect.), Taco section (For games who's main plot focuses around tacos), ect...

Yep.. I'm done now.
Now that you say that...
Wouldn't it be interesting if we could implement a tag system? Maybe Lemma's too small for the moment but it's something to think about. The good would be all the benefits playswithtribbles mentioned and the WIP forum would be better organized, the bad would be that people may get so set in their genre that they neglect other people's WIP threads. Pretty much the same idea as the GxB forum except it isn't singling out one genre only. The idea is interesting at least.

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#77 Post by Aleema » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:36 pm

Yeah, I offered that up, but PyTom says nothing like that exists yet, and if it did, it would have to be very solid coding before he used it on this forum.

So if anyone who knows PHP wants to give it a go ... ^^;

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#78 Post by Blue Lemma » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:03 am

A tag system would probably be ideal, but there isn't a good one right now :(

Before the new forum, there was so much new thread activity in the WiP forum that there was only a span of 2-3 days for the first page of threads. That meant projects not gaining immediate interest would be shoved to page 2 or beyond and likely never be able to gain any input or attention. With two more specific forums, people with new projects to pitch can get more face-time with the community (just slightly more specific parts of the community.)

Had the majority of threads on the original forum become about furries and were marked by their creators with "(Furry)", we would have probably done the same thing and made a new furry forum. Same for RPGs or fangames.

I understand why some people are feeling cast out of the original WiP forum. There is truly no intention to shove GxB creators aside, sweep their games under the rug, or anything mean like that. I visit the new forum just as much as the old one, personally :D And again, if the categorization ends up becoming a problem for the projects and causes people trouble, we'll probably change it back (barring some horrid technical difficulty.) Please open your mind to the change for the time being and see how it goes.
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#79 Post by Maverynthia » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:35 am

I'm happy for the new forum. It was a bit of struggle to find the otome game mixed in with the other stuff. Why I think this is important is the fact that the main thread is still called "Work in Progress" with no moniker of what it is. It was always assumed to be BxG or GxG games in there. That is the standard I see for all the VN "clubs" (online groups, ID banners, character lists, etc.) and threads on other forums/anime&manga sites/game retailers.

Which gets me into the people talking about male opinion. Really besides an artistic critique (arms too long, eye is wonky) they should keep out of otome affairs unless they are the ones making the game themselves (and at that point they should listen to the audience they are catering to), as it is in main gaming companies women are already told what to put in games FOR them or how the main female character should act. All of this of course to appeal to the male audience and/or appeal to the sense of male culture.
Which is why so many otome games as it is out there have "useless female leads", "stupid female leads", "doormats" and other adjectives to describe the main female lead not being strong or adhering to established stereotypical norms set out by mainstream culture on a way a woman/girl should act/dress/look and what types of men are acceptable for women to like and what they should like (thus why you always get the arrogant one/dominating one/jerk/soft then crazy/angsty/distant/shy/playful/torturerer-who-teases-the-main-lead-to-see-the-reaction type of guys). My research here is: look at Angelique the original on SNES guys, look at the guys between the original, what other companies have done since and THEN the ones Koei now has in Corda, Haruka. Notice how you start getting the more harmful types of guys showing up.
But that's just the trends I see in many of the Doujin games I've played from here and elsewhere. (Even though I know women are working on these games, they still use the same tropes put forth by male writers/producers for big name publisher titles such as Koei, Konami, SugarBeans, Idea Factory, etc.)
So, really let us make games for ourselves as I doubt the ones making BxG games want to be told how their characters should act/react/look

Labels:
What usually falls into otome game territory: GxB, BxB, GxBG (the ones that usually have the one character you can date/become best friends with)
What usually falls into bishoujo game territory: BxG, GxG ..... Yeah, games for male audience don't get the BxGB, only the BxGA Ambiguous like Subaru from SakuTai (Which NIS screwed up by saying 'she' to in the date movie >_>)

Normally I don't mind GxG in my otome, however I like that path to be the 'hard to get path'. Two of the games I've played that had that path, I get the girl FIRST. Only reason being that all the guys were the jerks and/or it felt 'wrong' to do some of the choices "Your friend is crying, do you comfort her or leave her be to go after HOTDUDE1?" So, if your going to have GxG content in your most GxB game, try to have a diverse cast of guys that don't fall into the "harmful guy" trope or make a situation in which you have to be the jerk to get any of the guys. That's the only reason I get a bit defensive if there is GxG content. I've gotten the girl too many times and I'm not really into that.

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#80 Post by Topagae » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:38 pm

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#81 Post by Aleema » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:53 pm

If I could ask a favor, it would be to have quick reply back. Seems like a privilege that was stripped, which makes the forum seem like a punishment. It's the little stuff like that that's making me feel really =\ about it all.

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#82 Post by Topagae » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:57 pm

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#83 Post by PyTom » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:26 pm

That was a mistake on my part - I didn't realize I had to enable it explicitly when creating the board.
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#84 Post by kinougames » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:42 pm

Which gets me into the people talking about male opinion. Really besides an artistic critique (arms too long, eye is wonky) they should keep out of otome affairs unless they are the ones making the game themselves (and at that point they should listen to the audience they are catering to), as it is in main gaming companies women are already told what to put in games FOR them or how the main female character should act. All of this of course to appeal to the male audience and/or appeal to the sense of male culture.
No offense? But no. This is just as separatist as the men who tell women what to do. Women aren't the only people who can make things like women like, and outright telling men to "keep the heck out of your otome" is completely ridiculous.
So, really let us make games for ourselves as I doubt the ones making BxG games want to be told how their characters should act/react/look.
Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen any real arguing going on as far as "your characters don't make my loins tingle enough!" If there is, I would certainly be interested in seeing it. I can see "your characters look too childish", but I'm a girl. If I say something you don't agree with, am I less useful? Why not simply learn what critique works and what doesn't instead of "STAY AWAAAAAAAAY"?
Normally I don't mind GxG in my otome, however I like that path to be the 'hard to get path'. Two of the games I've played that had that path, I get the girl FIRST. Only reason being that all the guys were the jerks and/or it felt 'wrong' to do some of the choices "Your friend is crying, do you comfort her or leave her be to go after HOTDUDE1?" So, if your going to have GxG content in your most GxB game, try to have a diverse cast of guys that don't fall into the "harmful guy" trope or make a situation in which you have to be the jerk to get any of the guys. That's the only reason I get a bit defensive if there is GxG content. I've gotten the girl too many times and I'm not really into that.
I love when GxG is the easiest option. :) It means that the ladies making these games for me really know what I like. Easy to get best endings. :)
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#85 Post by LordShiranai » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:24 pm

Maverynthia wrote:Which gets me into the people talking about male opinion. Really besides an artistic critique (arms too long, eye is wonky) they should keep out of otome affairs unless they are the ones making the game themselves (and at that point they should listen to the audience they are catering to), as it is in main gaming companies women are already told what to put in games FOR them or how the main female character should act. All of this of course to appeal to the male audience and/or appeal to the sense of male culture.
If the characters are interesting and the overall plot of the story is good, then I don't really care if a VN is otome, bishoujo, or whatever other label you want to slap on it. Then again, I generally prefer games with a primary plot that is non-romantic, but may contain incidental romance options... versus a "pure romance" game. There seems to be some debate on if or not a game with a female protagonist actually counts as "otome" if the romance is simply incidental.
Maverynthia wrote:Which is why so many otome games as it is out there have "useless female leads", "stupid female leads", "doormats" and other adjectives to describe the main female lead not being strong or adhering to established stereotypical norms set out by mainstream culture on a way a woman/girl should act/dress/look and what types of men are acceptable for women to like and what they should like (thus why you always get the arrogant one/dominating one/jerk/soft then crazy/angsty/distant/shy/playful/torturerer-who-teases-the-main-lead-to-see-the-reaction type of guys).
I also highly dislike the type of protagonist you describe. At the same time, I often find that the male protagonist in bishoujo games to be eerily similar. They often do not have much of their own personality beyond what the player projects onto them, tend to be average, and often say very little. Often it seems that the girls are just dragging them around, and they may as well not even exist. Again, a very boring protagonist. At least for me.

I think the problem here is that a lot of players actually like having the weak protagonist. They do not have much of their own personality, and thus it allows the player to project their own upon them. The main character is also typically depicted at being merely average at things, thus is someone that they player could realistically be... and yet they have the opportunity to obtain what are often some very colorful, interesting, and attractive love interests.

If the main character is a wealthy CEO, or a skilled spy engaged in a dangerous mission, they are likely to be a more interesting character and also have a strong personality. However, in the setting of a romance game, they may not end up being someone that the player can relate to or project themselves onto. Some players may not like the connotation that it takes being more than an average person to obtain the girl or guy they want.

Just a theory. Personally, I'm for protagonists that are more interesting.
Maverynthia wrote: Labels:
What usually falls into otome game territory: GxB, BxB, GxBG (the ones that usually have the one character you can date/become best friends with)
What usually falls into bishoujo game territory: BxG, GxG ..... Yeah, games for male audience don't get the BxGB, only the BxGA Ambiguous like Subaru from SakuTai (Which NIS screwed up by saying 'she' to in the date movie >_>)
Just a question, because I haven't done much research into the subject, but what about VNs that are actually targeted at the gay or lesbian audience? Do they even exist?
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#86 Post by Wintermoon » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:33 pm

kinougames wrote:Women aren't the only people who can make things like women like, and outright telling men to "keep the heck out of your otome" is completely ridiculous.
Although I agree with this statement, it carries an unfortunate implication with it, namely that GxB games are always targeted at women. Not true. It is possible to write GxB aimed at a specifically male audience. It is also possible to write BxG aimed at a specifically female audience. We don't have a forum dedicated to games aimed at a female audience, we have a forum dedicated to GxB games.

(And so far the posts defending the separation of GxB have only reinforced by opinion that this separation is a bad idea. I was afraid that this separation would lead to stereotypes and prejudices, and now these same stereotypes and prejudices are being used to defend this separation.)

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#87 Post by Mikan » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:42 pm

I came all the way over here to say: YES THIS IS THE RIGHT MOVE.

Also, surprise! I'm female.

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#88 Post by kinougames » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:21 pm

Wintermoon wrote:
Although I agree with this statement, it carries an unfortunate implication with it, namely that GxB games are always targeted at women. Not true. It is possible to write GxB aimed at a specifically male audience. It is also possible to write BxG aimed at a specifically female audience. We don't have a forum dedicated to games aimed at a female audience, we have a forum dedicated to GxB games.

(And so far the posts defending the separation of GxB have only reinforced by opinion that this separation is a bad idea. I was afraid that this separation would lead to stereotypes and prejudices, and now these same stereotypes and prejudices are being used to defend this separation.)
No it doesn't. Otome is not GxB, and there's a full set of posts on the differences between GxB and otome. Otome is "games for girls". GxB is "female main character, male love interests".
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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#89 Post by Wintermoon » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:48 pm

kinougames wrote:No it doesn't. Otome is not GxB, and there's a full set of posts on the differences between GxB and otome. Otome is "games for girls". GxB is "female main character, male love interests".
At this point I don't even know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, so let me just clarify my position.

GxB is "female main character, male love interest". Despite the use of the letters G and B, the term does not imply any specific age for the character.

Otome games are a subset of GxB aimed at girls where one of the goals is to develop a romantic relationship. It doesn't include non-GxB games. It does not include GxB games not aimed at a female audience. It does not include GxB games aimed at a female audience where the romance aspect is completely downplayed. It does not include GxB games aimed at a female where the protagonist is not a "maiden", e.g. a sexually experienced protagonist. It does not include romance-orientated GxB visual novels aimed at a female audience where the romance happens without input from the reader, e.g. "kinetic" novels. However, the term "otome game" is commonly misused to mean all GxB games aimed at a female audience.

Talking as if all GxB games were otome games (by either definition) marginalizes all the other GxB games.

Talking about men keeping out of "otome affairs" in a thread about GxB games, without an explicit acknowledgment of the existence of non-otome GxB games in the GxB forum, marginalizes those other games. By the same token, talking as if the general WIP forum were a BxG forum marginalizes all the non-romantic, GxG, BxB, BGxG, BGxB, GxBG, BxBG, BGxBG, and miscellaneous other games in that forum.

While I am sure it was not your intention to marginalize other GxB games - after all you were only replying to the post that mentioned men keeping out of "otome affairs", and only to voice a disagreement - I still felt it useful to post a reminder that not all games in the GxB forum are aimed at a female audience in the first place.

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Re: Created Works in Progress - Otome

#90 Post by kinougames » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:29 pm

Wintermoon wrote: At this point I don't even know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, so let me just clarify my position.

GxB is "female main character, male love interest". Despite the use of the letters G and B, the term does not imply any specific age for the character.
Not sure what this has to do with the argument.
Otome games are a subset of GxB aimed at girls where one of the goals is to develop a romantic relationship. It doesn't include non-GxB games. It does not include GxB games not aimed at a female audience. It does not include GxB games aimed at a female audience where the romance aspect is completely downplayed. It does not include GxB games aimed at a female where the protagonist is not a "maiden", e.g. a sexually experienced protagonist. It does not include romance-orientated GxB visual novels aimed at a female audience where the romance happens without input from the reader, e.g. "kinetic" novels. However, the term "otome game" is commonly misused to mean all GxB games aimed at a female audience.

Talking as if all GxB games were otome games (by either definition) marginalizes all the other GxB games.
I know what otome games are...I was part of the conversation where I mentioned that I felt "otome" and "GxB" were being used synonymously, and also incorrectly, since I only know it as the Japanese meaning, which is your meaning here.

I never spoke as if all GxB was otome. I said otome in the quote you pasted...I meant otome in the most literal sense.

Talking about men keeping out of "otome affairs" in a thread about GxB games, without an explicit acknowledgment of the existence of non-otome GxB games in the GxB forum, marginalizes those other games. By the same token, talking as if the general WIP forum were a BxG forum marginalizes all the non-romantic, GxG, BxB, BGxG, BGxB, GxBG, BxBG, BGxBG, and miscellaneous other games in that forum.
Where did I say that GxB = otome? I'm pretty sure I spent my time on this forum disagreeing with just that.
While I am sure it was not your intention to marginalize other GxB games - after all you were only replying to the post that mentioned men keeping out of "otome affairs", and only to voice a disagreement - I still felt it useful to post a reminder that not all games in the GxB forum are aimed at a female audience in the first place.
What I think is that you didn't really read what I wrote too carefully. I meant otome as it's original definition. I partook in a discussion where it was shown that otome and GxB are not necessarily the same thing, and then were defined separately. Assuming that my use of otome automatically meant GxB would be logically fallacious.

I'm sure you felt it very useful to "remind" me that the GxB games aren't aimed at a female audience...except that I agree and never made motions to disagree. You might've directed that comment to the person with the idea that men shouldn't comment on girl games...not the person who thinks that men should be able to critique whatever they want.
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