Created Works in Progress - Otome

[lordcloudx]

@PyTom: Ok, I get where you're coming from. Personally, I'd still advocate a more rigid structure that can be used for a long time in any demographic rather than one that constantly changes according to the type of posts it receives though.

[Jake]

Personally, I'd still advocate a more rigid structure that can be used for a long time in any demographic rather than one that constantly changes according to the type of posts it receives though.

For some reason I have this image in my head of the same thing happening two or three years ago; we would have had "Works in Progress" and "Works in Progress: Million-Word-Long Fate/Stay Night Clones". :3

[Aleema]

I have a mixed reaction to this. My first and more natural was "oh no he didn't". It's more singling out and segregation. One of my moved games might have had GxB romances, but goddamnit, men can play it without having to do a damn one. It was a GAME first, before it was GxB. And my forced GxB one was not moved simply because it did not say GxB in the title. Yes, you've said how you chose the ones to move, I just hate the idea that it will take me clicking a button that says "I have posted this in the wrong forum. How could I have placed this in the general public?" to get it to its target audience. Because the target audience, heaven forbid, be in the general public.

But, I see the other side of the coin, I guess. These are just WIP threads, and like EVERYONE but a handful of people seem to agree, WIP threads are useless and pointless nowadays. All completed games are getting posted to the same place still. I visit the WIP forum to see the progress of games I would be interested in. If I am not exactly interested, then ... I dunno. Maybe I will learn to be? For instance, there are plenty of projects that have garnered my interest and feedback that were not otome games. That's a drawback to this.

And that I will never get male input on my games again. Do you know how much help my latest game has gotten from men? Some of my best ideas came from those who prefer BxG. With this segregation, I will no longer have that! And that makes me ... kinda mad, actually!

If indeed your intentions are pure, and you wanted to help people find their respective interests, you ARE taking a step in the right direction to doing that. Though other options are optimal. But making one simply and only for otome games, and no other large-reaching genre, is very much discrimination.

We are now a separate community, a separate "college of developers" that must be filtered from other games. I am still not seeing it as a privilege or an earned perk (in the "yay! we got our own forum!" sort of sense), but rather that we are a separate and disturbing genre, like the Hentai forums.

And let's be honest here. Worried that we will turn into a girls club? Because you're turning it into a boys club. We should be able to coexist.

There are a lot of BxG games. Where's their forum? I mean, otome is only a subset of the VN medium. Well, so is BxG. There's GxG and BxB, and the mixes in between. Why do BxG games get to be the default? Why is it "assumed"? Because this is a BxG-centered medium? Isn't that just like saying this is a boys club? That's why I am weirded out by this decision. Because your "The split also makes it easier to find non-Otome games, for people who want to do that." line speaks louder than anything else in the opening post.

But at least you are being honest and open about what is bothering you in the WIP forum. I think that is also a step in the right direction for you, but I'd rather see you accept GxB games as GAMES like everything else. Things that you CAN comment on and be interested in with some possibility. Or else, be fair and separate by all available preferences. If you can't do that (and I don't suggest that you do, for multi-preference games), then let's reconsider some better options.

- Tagging threads will their content so the forum view will allow you to select to view "all" or your personal preference. These tags might show up next to the title as images. I've seen this done on other boards, but I can't remember if they were phpBB or not.
- Having another tagging system, maybe like how blogs do it, where you can tag threads with "otome, horror, commercial" and then you can sort posts by tags like that, which would benefit everyone, I think.

[Showsni]

And that I will never get male input on my games again. Do you know how much help my latest game has gotten from men? Some of my best ideas came from those who prefer BxG. With this segregation, I will no longer have that! And that makes me ... kinda mad, actually!

Umm... Why? It's not as if the extra forum is going to ask for a gender check and bar all males. The kind of person who won't check the otome forum is the kind of person who wouldn't click on a thread that says [GxB] or Otome anyway. I can't see that you're going to lose any input, really. Besides, I, and presumably several others, only view the boards via "View unread posts" anyway; which forum a thread is in makes precisely no difference there.

[Jake]

Umm... Why? It's not as if the extra forum is going to ask for a gender check and bar all males. The kind of person who won't check the otome forum is the kind of person who wouldn't click on a thread that says [GxB] or Otome anyway.

Well, I for one tend to view the forum category by category. So if I don't have so much time - maybe I'm at the end of my lunch-break at work - I'll just check Game-Maker's Corner and Ren'Py, 'cause those are the topics where I either find the most interesting discussions or people asking questions that I might be able to help out.

So I could easily imagine a point in time where I don't have time to check every forum, and I go in WiP before WiP:O, and maybe miss out that last forum entirely. It's not like I'm never going to look at a thread with '[GxB]' in the title, but putting them in a different forum to the other WiP stuff does end up making me less likely to look at them.

[Wintermoon]

FWIW I also think tags make more sense. The nice thing about tags is that you can have more than one of them, so that I can tag my (hypothetical! Or is it?) story about a war between a gay Roman general and a Lesbian Egyptian queen as [GxG, BxB, historical, war] and hit all of the main areas of interest.

However, I don't think singling out otome games makes BxG games the default. "Non-otome games" means just that. It is not code for BxG games. Looking at the Work in Progress forum, BxG games still seem to be a minority.

[Aleema]

However, I don't think singling out otome games makes BxG games the default. "Non-otome games" means just that. It is not code for BxG games. Looking at the Work in Progress forum, BxG games still seem to be a minority.

The point was that singling otome out is the problem. I'm well aware there are other genres in the "non-otome" category, but there used to be two MAJOR categories: both sides in the heterosexual relationship. Now one of them is removed, so that leaves one major categories that is NOT labeled BxG, but instead as a general VN. As if it and the other preferences are more correct, less weird interpretations of the medium. I know that is NOT PyTom's intention. I know he is NOT trying to be discriminatory. I'm explaining my personal reasons for feeling somewhat upset about the idea, since it will hurt my games (lack of male viewership, input, and ideas -- won't encourage good game discussion if we assume WIP is only for "if I like the game", etc.).

BxG in the minority? Then make a BxG forum. Seriously. If that's statistically correct, why are we the ones with the subforum? Because ... of ... my ... point?

Umm... Why? It's not as if the extra forum is going to ask for a gender check and bar all males. The kind of person who won't check the otome forum is the kind of person who wouldn't click on a thread that says [GxB] or Otome anyway. I can't see that you're going to lose any input, really. Besides, I, and presumably several others, only view the boards via "View unread posts" anyway; which forum a thread is in makes precisely no difference there.

Let's not pretend it's a more perfect world than it is. With the GxB games a totally separate webpage away, that WILL deter those not interested in otome. And definitely those who don't even know what "otome" is. The kind of person who won't check the GxB thread is not the same type of person who won't go into the GxB forum. Having the GxB threads among other developer's creations like they are equals encourages us to comment on each other's ideas. "An RPG? I like those!" Does it matter if it was GxB at that point? Probably not much. But saying "this forum is for girls and those who like playing as girls" WILL keep those who like playing as boys from clicking it. Not as a rule. Not from some sort of gender check. From pure casual browsing.

[kinougames]

Let's not pretend it's a more perfect world than it is. With the GxB games a totally separate webpage away, that WILL deter those not interested in otome. And definitely those who don't even know what "otome" is. The kind of person who won't check the GxB thread is not the same type of person who won't go into the GxB forum. Having the GxB threads among other developer's creations like they are equals encourages us to comment on each other's ideas. "An RPG? I like those!" Does it matter if it was GxB at that point? Probably not much. But saying "this forum is for girls and those who like playing as girls" WILL keep those who like playing as boys from clicking it. Not as a rule. Not from some sort of gender check. From pure casual browsing.

I have no hatred of otome games in general, but the otome games on this forum are the exact type of game I try to avoid. For me, this is perfect. I don't have to see games I know, more likely than not, I will avoid anyway, and I was already avoiding the WIP forums because of the mass amounts of often cookie-cutter GxB that I had to sift through.

People who like otome, even a little, will eventually see your games. Most of this forum likes otome, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and I doubt you'll lose all that much input on your games.

Furthermore, I don't even need otome to be in a different forum to avoid it. I avoid anything that says GxB in the title, and if I open something and it says GxB, I will click back. So at least from my end, nothing is lost, and because forums are not representative of the entire internet population, I'd say let the test run a month or two and see what happens.

[DaFool]

If your game happens to feature a female protagonist but isn't specifically aimed at a female audience, rather any reader, then it's not an otome game.

Dang, now what do I do with my political war-drama starring a girl forced in the ways of Sun Tzu? (and its a moot point anyway, since I don't plan to post in WIP for the time being.)

My beef is with how most people interpret definitions. I was happy with riding the GxB tag but apparently I can no longer do that. Since GxB is now synonymous with "Date! Date! Date!" as BxG is synonymous with "Rape! Rape! Rape!"

I think a compromise can be reached where dating-sim and romance-heavy BxG get their own subforum as well. Then anything else whose primary theme happens to be horror, or RPG elements can reside in the "default" subforum as long as the romantic elements don't pass a certain threshold. If BxB and GxG are the main elements than a game can be in the "mainstream" subforum as well due to their "educational" potential. Then both GxB and BxG can be free to acquire the stigma of "unrealistic heterosexual wish-fulfillment fantasies", since the most-compelling works I know always make sure the romancing plays second-fiddle to a more mainstream plot or theme.

[Wintermoon]

I'm well aware there are other genres in the "non-otome" category, but there used to be two MAJOR categories: both sides in the heterosexual relationship.

Really? I thought actual X-pursues-Y romance games were fairly rare. There are a lot of incidental BxG games that don't focus on romance and aren't written specifically for a male audience. Likewise, there are a lot of incidental GxB games that don't focus on romance and aren't written specifically for a female audience (and therefore aren't otome games). There is a huge set of games that have no romance element at all. And then there is a small handful of games with homosexual relationships, and another few that explore both sides of heterosexual relationships.

But I guess it's all a question of how you classify things.

[papillon]

I have no hatred of otome games in general, but the otome games on this forum are the exact type of game I try to avoid. For me, this is perfect. I don't have to see games I know, more likely than not, I will avoid anyway, and I was already avoiding the WIP forums because of the mass amounts of often cookie-cutter GxB that I had to sift through.

... Wait, what exactly is the exact type of game you try to avoid? I admit that I have not read every single WIP thread because I find it a waste of time to get excited about games that may never be finished.

But comparing some games which are all technically GxB - the first Fantasia game, Aleema's Rock Band game, and my Date Warp - how are these one single exact type of game? What's even vaguely similar about them, other than that they feature a female protagonist and the possibility of romance with male characters? I don't know how the rockband game has been going because I haven't looked at it since the first demo, but it certainly wasn't sugary piles of hearts and sparkles.

It's one thing to imply that there are a lot of GxB games out there that you don't care for; perfectly reasonable, everyone has their own tastes. But when people start suggesting that they're all the same and being glad that they're swept away where one doesn't have to look at them, that does start sounding like the kind of anti-girl prejudice some people are worrying about.

It's hard enough dealing with mainstream prejudices against visual novels (No, I'm not making a porn game!); it's pretty frustrating to think that people within the community are now hearing otome/GxB and immediately pulling up some equally bizarre list of stereotypes to apply to the game. Should I have to lie about what's in my games in order to get people to play them?

[LordShiranai]

Let's not pretend it's a more perfect world than it is. With the GxB games a totally separate webpage away, that WILL deter those not interested in otome. And definitely those who don't even know what "otome" is. The kind of person who won't check the GxB thread is not the same type of person who won't go into the GxB forum. Having the GxB threads among other developer's creations like they are equals encourages us to comment on each other's ideas. "An RPG? I like those!" Does it matter if it was GxB at that point? Probably not much. But saying "this forum is for girls and those who like playing as girls" WILL keep those who like playing as boys from clicking it. Not as a rule. Not from some sort of gender check. From pure casual browsing.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying. My main concern with segregating any community is that people could miss out on games that they might be interested in outside of the romance aspects.

One thing to keep in mind is that Py'Tom did say this was an experiment for a few months to see how it works out, which is why I'm not too concerned about it.

[jack_norton]

I don't think is a problem since it affects ONLY THE WIP FORUMS. So, once the game is finished, is going to end in Completed Games. And so nobody is going to miss anything final, only the work in progress threads

[Aleema]

One thing to keep in mind is that Py'Tom did say this was an experiment for a few months to see how it works out, which is why I'm not too concerned about it.

In a few months, my game will be done. Ideally. November is a while away. I may not get that male input I am looking for unless I specifically ask people to go into the forum and review it.

Really? I thought actual X-pursues-Y romance games were fairly rare. There are a lot of incidental BxG games that don't focus on romance and aren't written specifically for a male audience. Likewise, there are a lot of incidental GxB games that don't focus on romance and aren't written specifically for a female audience (and therefore aren't otome games). There is a huge set of games that have no romance element at all. And then there is a small handful of games with homosexual relationships, and another few that explore both sides of heterosexual relationships.

Two of my games that were moved to the otome forum are exactly your definition. They were INCIDENTAL ROMANCE. But because of the attitude against GxB, no one cared to look past that tag and moved it. THAT IS A PROBLEM.

The original use of the GxB tag was because there were overwhelming amounts of BxG and your so-called "well there was some BxG elements, but you don't have to be a straight dude to want to play it ..." games (which if there are any BxG elements, then they should be BxG as much as my games are). There was, like, two or three games with GxB romances in them. That was it. That was all. There were female developers on the board, so tagging them as such was a way to help these people find something that was, at last, made in their interests. Just because the amount of them has increased doesn't mean the level of GxB in them is exactly the same, or the game automatically can't be played by straight men. A separate forum will force this division and assumption.

Should I have to lie about what's in my games in order to get people to play them?

=\ I'm going to have to remove the "GxB" in my titles to get my two "coincidentally, there will be some romance" games back into the main forum. And that's a lie and a disservice to those who want to play as a female with those romances. It satisfies multiple needs.

But I'm also torn between just leaving the game in the otome forum or asking it to be moved in a more public place. Why do I have to decide this all of a sudden? And why do I get the feeling that even if I decide it to be in the main WIP forum, some one higher up will still tell me no? Will have I have to make two threads? One that lies about GxB content and one that embraces it? This is more extremely acute/objective quality judgement that encourages stereotyping. You may be helping BxG gamers find their BxG games, but at the expense of GxB developers.

This otome prejudice is really hurting them, you know. GxB developers. They actually feel ostracized and are too afraid of you guys to even make their opinions known in threads like this. I'm not making assumptions about that either, I KNOW, because they've told me. Why do they have to be outsiders all of a sudden? This used to be a supportive, welcoming community, but all these icky girls must be put in their own forum. There. Now we don't have to look at them. Whew.

I don't think is a problem since it affects ONLY THE WIP FORUMS. So, once the game is finished, is going to end in Completed Games. And so nobody is going to miss anything final, only the work in progress threads

That's what I originally thought to. But think about it.

If we establish that "GxB" means "I'm not interested in this game" through the WIP forums, then when I release my game and I label it "GxB" (and I will), it will STILL not be explored by those people. They will just assume it is not within their interests. Is that what we want? Seriously?

Only thing I can do now is release my games and show those who think like that what you were missing. But I'll make sure to still label it as "GxB", so feel free to ignore that thread as well.

[Voight-Kampff]

I don't think is a problem since it affects ONLY THE WIP FORUMS. So, once the game is finished, is going to end in Completed Games. And so nobody is going to miss anything final, only the work in progress threads

That's true. However, what about people who want to use the WIP section to drum up hype and interest surrounding their game? Personally, I have a tendency to at least glance at every WIP thread, just to see if I spot anything interesting. But I can easily imagine people who, for instance, might forego looking at anything in the Otome WIP section because it's just full of all those "girly games". Of course, the opposite could easily happen as well.

I wonder...I realize PyTom and Blue Lemma don't make phpBB, but could something be done that would give posters an option (perhaps selectable radio buttons) that would allow them to append something like GxB, BxG, Mix, etc. to the beginning of their subject line? Something that would provide consistency for potential readers, while at the same time, keeping all the WIP threads in one place?