'True' endings

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Ametrya
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Re: 'True' endings

#31 Post by Ametrya » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:14 pm

kinougames wrote:Correct is a state of mind. It seems your problem is a lot more that the "non-canon" endings don't make YOU happy, so YOU feel as if they're not "correct".
Um, the tone of this seems like something an angry teen fangirl, though I understand your view.

It's not about the current formula being 'wrong', but overused, it's just that it would be more interactive to make the choices actual complete stories in their own instead of showing them as variations of a main path.

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Re: 'True' endings

#32 Post by kinougames » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:19 pm

Ametrya wrote:
kinougames wrote:Correct is a state of mind. It seems your problem is a lot more that the "non-canon" endings don't make YOU happy, so YOU feel as if they're not "correct".
Um, the tone of this seems like something an angry teen fangirl, though I understand your view.

It's not about the current formula being 'wrong', but overused, it's just that it would be more interactive to make the choices actual complete stories in their own instead of showing them as variations of a main path.
And the tone is simply a quote of exactly what you've sounded like this entire post.

I explained the technical problems with doing what you want in a visual novel, and the reason why people (and especially pros) would not use them. I really don't see what's left to complain about. Go make your own, if you want that, plain and simple.

And when you realize that the sheer amount of necessary art has doubled or tripled, hey, you might realize why no one agrees with you.
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Re: 'True' endings

#33 Post by Ametrya » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:24 pm

kinougames wrote:And the tone is simply a quote of exactly what you've sounded like this entire post.
It's kinda useless to try starting a discussion about tones in the internet, I'm just talking about game design stuff.
kinougames wrote:I explained the technical problems with doing what you want in a visual novel, and the reason why people (and especially pros) would not use them. I really don't see what's left to complain about. Go make your own, if you want that, plain and simple.

And when you realize that the sheer amount of necessary art has doubled or tripled, hey, you might realize why no one agrees with you.
Well, that's a pretty weird reasoning, considering that it's mainly about story treatment rather than resources, and there are already many games with several paths, that include lots of music and pretty art.

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Re: 'True' endings

#34 Post by kinougames » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:27 pm

Ametrya wrote: It's kinda useless to try starting a discussion about tones in the internet, I'm just talking about game design stuff.
Then...why attempt to start one?
kinougames wrote:Well, that's a pretty weird reasoning, considering that it's mainly about story treatment rather than resources, and there are already many games with several paths, that include lots of music and pretty art.
No, it's not a weird reasoning. Visual novels are not JUST about story. That's only half the battle. The visual part is the other half. To diverge a story as much as you claim to want it includes, on average, more writing. More writing means more art. Even if it was super easy to write a novel length story, adding extra paths to your specific satisfaction would often be akin to taking a quarter of the story, or even half the story and basically rewriting it for someone else. That stuff? Takes more art, takes more programming, takes more of people's time, which hey, they will expect to get paid for.

I have no doubt that games like you want -exist-. That doesn't mean it's cost-effective or feasible to make. If you're hung up on getting the exact ending you apparently seem to want, go play those games and stop bugging game makers for doing what works for them, what sells, and most of all? What they want to do.
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Re: 'True' endings

#35 Post by Ametrya » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:17 am

kinougames wrote:
Ametrya wrote: It's kinda useless to try starting a discussion about tones in the internet, I'm just talking about game design stuff.
Then...why attempt to start one?
I didn't attempt to start one, I just though that including a tone in that post was kinda missing the point of this thread.
kinougames wrote:No, it's not a weird reasoning. Visual novels are not JUST about story. That's only half the battle. The visual part is the other half. To diverge a story as much as you claim to want it includes, on average, more writing. More writing means more art. Even if it was super easy to write a novel length story, adding extra paths to your specific satisfaction would often be akin to taking a quarter of the story, or even half the story and basically rewriting it for someone else. That stuff? Takes more art, takes more programming, takes more of people's time, which hey, they will expect to get paid for.
Probably I didn't explain it correctly, since what you just said here is very unrelated to my point. There are many games that do include several paths, with their respective art music and all. Like the Fantasia series, Frozen Essence, Date Warp, and many, many others. It's just story treatment what makes some of their endings less 'fulfilling' than the true ones, which again, is not a bad thing at all, but it would be interesting to use different methods for story telling, enjoying that VNs don't actually need to be linear like movies or books.
kinougames wrote:I have no doubt that games like you want -exist-. That doesn't mean it's cost-effective or feasible to make.
Read my previous text, I insist that it's mainly about story treatment rather than anything else.
kinougames wrote:If you're hung up on getting the exact ending you apparently seem to want
There's no such ending, I mentioned some games only as examples for some points
kinougames wrote:stop bugging game makers for doing what works for them, what sells, and most of all? What they want to do.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, I'm just discussing something that doesn't seems used enough, since it seems like an unwritten rule to make n good endings, n bad endings and one obligatory best endings, with n being the number of obtainable guys/girls.

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Re: 'True' endings

#36 Post by papillon » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:28 pm

I suppose the question is - is any author putting in a true ending just because they feel these games are supposed to have true endings?

I've argued against true endings in some other games and specifically made Fatal Hearts without one (which makes little difference because players insist on calling one particular ending the true ending anyway). Date Warp has one true ending because the developments of the story as I wrote it demanded it be that way, not because I thought it was 'supposed' to. The big central mystery is confusing, you need to have seen the other paths to understand the climax, and by the nature of the climax your choice in characters for the true ending is limited. I could have made a special true ending path where you don't have a romance with ANYONE but...

Now, the good/bad character endings, those were deliberately planned. But as for unwritten rules, many eroges have only one ending per character, and others have more than two per character, and many have a 'no character' path and/or a 'harem' path... It really depends on the game!

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Re: 'True' endings

#37 Post by kinougames » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:21 pm

Now I am seriously confused as to what you're ranting about. Are you ONLY talking about games on lemma? In which case, many of them are free and I really am not going to argue about free games doing one thing or another in general.

Most professional games that I've played have an ending for each character, each one fairly happy, and then the "bad" endings which are usually less "bad" in the context of the story and more "less pretty pictures for you because you didn't fulfill the game requirements".

To explain further, "good" endings in my experience are any ending with a fair conclusion. "Bad" endings are cutting your game short due to poor game choices. I've had several experiences where death endings were "good" because they provided a straight conclusion.

I really think there is too heavy of a personal opinion thing going on.
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Re: 'True' endings

#38 Post by Ametrya » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:01 pm

@Papillon: Seems interesting, but I haven't played the full version of that game. Maybe one ending did feel more realistic or complete for many people and that's why they see it as the 'true' ending, though people have different preferences for characters and all so I find it hard for everyone to feel that one particular path was the true one if many of them were made with similar dedication. Maybe it's just a majority because the characters involved happened to be awesome?
Probably I'm wrong, but
from just playing the demo, I though that the true ending would be the one with the pink haired girl, maybe it's just a first girl win case?
kinougames wrote:Now I am seriously confused as to what you're ranting about. Are you ONLY talking about games on lemma? In which case, many of them are free and I really am not going to argue about free games doing one thing or another in general.
Er... what?
kinougames wrote:Most professional games that I've played have an ending for each character, each one fairly happy, and then the "bad" endings which are usually less "bad" in the context of the story and more "less pretty pictures for you because you didn't fulfill the game requirements".

To explain further, "good" endings in my experience are any ending with a fair conclusion. "Bad" endings are cutting your game short due to poor game choices. I've had several experiences where death endings were "good" because they provided a straight conclusion.
yeah, but what I'm talking about are the games were only one choice is
kinougames wrote:I really think there is too heavy of a personal opinion thing going on.
???

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Re: 'True' endings

#39 Post by papillon » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:16 pm

Ametrya wrote:@Papillon: Seems interesting, but I haven't played the full version of that game. Maybe one ending did feel more realistic or complete for many people and that's why they see it as the 'true' ending, though people have different preferences for characters and all so I find it hard for everyone to feel that one particular path was the true one if many of them were made with similar dedication.
As best as I can tell, it's because a lot of players really want there to be a 'true' ending. It's not more complete in terms of fluff (you don't get special Music Of Awesome or an extra credit sequence or anything), it's not an unlockable (although it IS more difficult to achieve than a lot of the others, but it's possible, if unlikely, to get it on your first try), and it's not the only happy ending. It's not a complete consensus, especially since I keep saying there's no true end, just the feeling of the majority of players. They feel that way because they're assigning their own value judgments to certain events and deciding that this outcome is best for everyone involved.
Maybe it's just a majority because the characters involved happened to be awesome?
Probably I'm wrong, but
from just playing the demo, I though that the true ending would be the one with the pink haired girl, maybe it's just a first girl win case?
Nope, it's not that.

And again, just because a game has no ending labeled true doesn't mean that some players won't occasionally be disappointed because some particular outcome isn't available... like, say, you can marry Character A, but you can only end up the lover of Character B, because that's just the way those characters' paths work. I think (perhaps wrongly) that's part of why kinougames says this is really a personal taste argument.

If the exact outcome you wanted isn't there, or the big-happy-fanfare-completion requires you to pick someone you don't like as much, you'll feel slightly let down, but other players will feel differently. And you can feel that disappointment regardless of whether there's a true ending or not.

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Re: 'True' endings

#40 Post by kinougames » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:02 am

Ametrya wrote: Er... what?
Precisely what I'm thinking.
yeah, but what I'm talking about are the games were only one choice is
I've never played a professional game with only one "good" ending. The shortest game I played still had 13 "good" endings, and the longest one had like 12 good and 10 bad. Again, are you referring specifically to amateur EVNs?
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Re: 'True' endings

#41 Post by Ametrya » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:27 pm

No, I'm not referring only to amateur VNs, though these are the ones I've played the most.
And good =/= true, I don't get why you started talking about them as if they were the same

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Re: 'True' endings

#42 Post by kinougames » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:21 am

My entire point has been that "good" endings don't necessarily mean what the author designates as the canon ending, which is why I was getting confused when you kept insisting that there are so many games that only have one "correct" ending and that there need to be other endings that make people happy and...whatever else.
Check out the new interactive media project, Mitsumata(c). Follow 8 colorful characters in a story full of drama, horror, all sexualities and exciting gameplay~!

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