GxB Forum Separation (was: Post to Topic Ratio)

[PyTom]

(In this post, I'm speaking as just another forum member.)

I wonder if at least part of the problem with critique on this forum is that, when it comes to visual novels, the amount of work put into a project is often very large, when compared to other creative forms. Although I'm not sure of this, I suspect that most of the work posted on, say, DeviantArt is the result of an amount of effort measured in hours, or at most single-digit days. In comparison, even a small visual novel can be the product of weeks of work, and there are many projects that people have been working on for at least a year.

I wonder how much of what's going on is a result of this long cycle time. The point at which a visual novel can be majorly changed ends long before its released - even if there's a problem with a character's design, once a dozen sprites based on that design have been created, it can be hard to change them. I suspect that part of the underlying problem is that a lot of the discussion here isn't productive - even if it takes place, it's not going to change anything.

Perhaps part of the solution can be removing some of the secrecy that has become endemic to the forum. People seem to be reluctant to post products to the forum before their game is released. They might post lists of characters to the forum, or design sheets - but I don't think there's that much discussion of work (art/writing/music/programming) that actually goes into the finished product. I suspect that if people could comment at points in development where their comments can be acted upon, both the commentors and commentees would be much happier.

I don't know how to move from the current realm of secrecy to a place where people are more comfortable posting their in-development work publicly. Perhaps a start would be to pick one day a week to encourage people to post a product of their work on the forum, for comment - not a by-product, but a product that could go in the final game, but could also be improved. The idea would be to encourage people to get in the habit of working in public, at least when that public includes the community of game makers.

[Auro-Cyanide]

I think PyTom has a point. People are uber secretive about their stuff and want to keep it under wraps for lots of reasons (people might steal their stuff, it contains spoilers etc) but that also means you are not getting any feedback on important bits if you don't put it out there. How to change this, I don't know. I personally don't have a problem posting most stuff, I realise that if I want to get better I need people to tell me now.

With the time length thing, I think it is possibly a problem. I also think it is one of the main reasons projects get dropped. It takes a loooooong time. This is why feedback, both positive and negative, is necessary through the process. I don't know about everyone else, but I would be more likely to stay interested in something if there were other people interested in it with me, to show stuff off and get critique when I need it. However in return I would have to keep producing more work to keep those people interested. People rarely do things by themselves, for themselves. The ego pay off from the attention of others goes a long way. It is the whole 'I think therefore I am' except now it's 'I am noticed therefore I exist'. Basically humans tend to be big balls of ego and without attention we tend to wither.

Another problem is probably the whole game development team is not here. I see a lot of people who are in charge making posts, but you don't often see their artists, composers or programmers posting much in the same thread. I wonder if this is true or I'm imagining it.

I think it would be cool to see more WIP stuff to comment on. Not only will people get a chance to give feedback at a point when changes can actually be made (as an artist I'm all kinds of annoyed when people want me to change stuff AFTER I have done the work) it will also help others by seeing the different directions people take. Some of the best ways to learn is by observing another's actions. It would be nice if everyone could share their trails and tribulations so that people can learn from them.

But none of that really has anything to do with the changes to the forums. All that kind of stuff can only be changed if you change the culture of the forums and that isn't going to happen by renaming things. You can't force people to do certain things either. Your best bet would be to encourage some of the senior and more productive members to take the lead and people will probably follow in an effort to emulate those people who have succeeded.

Frankly I am happy as long as the forums have a nice organised and logical system

[Juxtaposition]

Critique is "useful or analytical feedback", not "negative feedback, constructive or otherwise".

That's a nice ideal, but it doesn't always work that way in practice, especially in more cerebral communities. More often than not, the dominant critiquing style tends toward long lists of constructive criticism and positive critique is given short shrift at best.

A number of folks would like the forums to become a place where one can give constructive criticism without fear of reprisal. I support that idea. I just have concerns that large amounts of people will make constructive criticism the de facto method of critique.

I want to share something. It's an excerpt from the introduction to Stephen King's Four Past Midnight. In it, Mr. King is discussing the public's reception of his book Different Seasons:

"Most important, the readers liked Different Seasons. I don't remember a single correspondent from that time who scolded me for writing something that wasn't horror. Most readers, in fact, wanted to tell me that one of the stories roused their emotions in some way, made them think, made them feel, and those letters are the real payback for the days (and there are a lot of them) when the words come hard and inspiration seems thin or even nonexistant. God bless and keep Constant Reader; the mouth can speak, but there is no tale unless there is a sympathetic ear to listen."

Mr. King is a professional. He doesn't suffer from writer's block. He has no shortage of new ideas. He doesn't worry about money. And yet, even he needs a cookie every once in awhile.

You don't get a lot of cookies in forums where constructive criticism is the dominant form of communication. It's just not done, it's too fanboyish, too emo, it's not useful, no true artist needs praise anyway. And that's a shame. Making art can be a lonely, frustrating business. There's no reason for it to be any harder than it already is.

So. Set up your critique forums. Have fun helping each other improve your skills. But make sure to bake a cookie every so often. There's no shame in doing so. There's no shame in wanting to eat one, either.

[Jake]

As to whether the word 'critique' includes positive as well as negative comments... I've said it more than once in this thread, but more importantly, it's not a word we made up at the beginning of this conversation - it's a regular English word with a fairly well-known meaning, and it's generally considered to include positive as well as negative comments. The point of using a well-known word was to not have to argue things like this...

You can't suddenly force people to be "more accepting of critique," if the status quo, is, as you seem to perceive, that critique is not openly accepted. The rules may say one thing, the actual people frequenting the forums may do otherwise.

This is true.

However, I have the strong impression that there are more people here interested in critique than presently actually give critique. I know I've seen or heard from quite a few people recently saying how they'd give more critique except for X or Y, and as I suggested in my first post on the topic, there are a number of reasons why people might not do it today and a vocal subset of forum users presently discourage critique. I can't guarantee that suddenly all those people will come out of the woodwork and volunteer their time, of course, but it seems to me quite likely that if it's made clear that critique is particularly welcomed in a particular part of the forum, more people will give it.

About diction, I get the impression from your last post, Jake, that you think that anything that is not useful = automatically bad (according to you).

I think that anything not useful to me is not useful to me, but that's about it. Don't confuse the way I would like things to be for me with my impression of everyone else; I'm well aware that other people have other requirements and other attitudes, and that's exactly why I'm not proposing we ban everything that isn't critique. It would be counter-productive.

But there obviously are other people who are interested in getting more 'useful' as opposed to 'pleasing' posts in response to their stuff, because some of them have also piped up on this thread. Those people have different requirements to the people who aren't interested in critique, and as such I think they should be posting in a different forum category - in the same way that people looking for new project members post in a different forum category to people looking for game recommendations.

It's heavily insinuated that the people who are willing to improve are better than those who don't. Even the choice of words of "willing to improve" and "not willing to improve" gives off this impression.

It's interesting that you mention this, because the first person to talk about people who are "willing to improve" in this thread was you, just then; you're the one who's making that choice of words.

Personally, I'm pretty sure I've been talking about people who are "interested in improving"; I'm interested in a lot of things (programming, drawing/painting, printmaking, just to name a few) but I don't think I'm necessarily better than people who aren't interested in those things at all, that would be pretty stupid.

So please - if you've incorrectly read the pro-critique posts as using that kind of phrasing, could you also consider that you may have incorrectly read that kind of sentiment into them as well?

It depends a lot on the person taking the critique, (and any of his/her support groups) just how well they will take said critique. I don't believe that any structural changes will change their attitudes. However, getting to know them, before making any "harsher" critique might help. It's not sugarcoating; it's simple courtesy.

Yeah, I'd completely agree with this, as well - critique should be productive, and putting some fresh-faced insecure teenager off making VNs for life by tearing their first test project to pieces isn't productive. Unless you think there should be fewer teenagers making VNs, I guess! ;-)

Perhaps part of the solution can be removing some of the secrecy that has become endemic to the forum. People seem to be reluctant to post products to the forum before their game is released. They might post lists of characters to the forum, or design sheets - but I don't think there's that much discussion of work (art/writing/music/programming) that actually goes into the finished product.

I definitely agree with this - although PyTom will already know that, since we discussed the same thing on IRC quite recently.

This was another motivation towards suggesting a separate forum category for critique, to be honest. I get the impression that a lot of people refuse to give out any details of their plot - for example - because they're worried about 'spoiling' their readers. Which means that they're treating the forum as a place to communicate with the consumers of their VN, rather than a place to communicate about making VNs. A critique forum should really be more-clearly a place to communicate with fellow creators about the act of creating, rather than a place to communicate with the end-consumers of your product before you've actually finished making it. In a promotions/hype fourm, the norm may be to post teasers and previews, while in a critique forum the norm may be to post plot outlines and chunks of prose (as, for example, Samu-kun did in his Homeward thread. Withholding information makes potential-readers more eager, but also decreases a potential-critiquer's ability to offer rounded advice. (And of course, there's nothing stopping you from posting in both places if you want to; both threads would presumably have a different character, so it's not like you'd necessarily be duplicating that much information.

[lordcloudx]

It's interesting that you mention this, because the first person to talk about people who are "willing to improve" in this thread was you, just then; you're the one who's making that choice of words.

Personally, I'm pretty sure I've been talking about people who are "interested in improving"; I'm interested in a lot of things (programming, drawing/painting, printmaking, just to name a few) but I don't think I'm necessarily better than people who aren't interested in those things at all, that would be pretty stupid.

So please - if you've incorrectly read the pro-critique posts as using that kind of phrasing, could you also consider that you may have incorrectly read that kind of sentiment into them as well?

Sigh... are we going to play the semantics game here? Interested in improving, willing to improve - whatever. I meant what you said, yes.

And no, I haven't incorrectly read anything. I'm saying that it's easy to infer that the pro-critique posts are anti-praise and it seems it's not just me, either, but don't quote me on that. Is that so hard to understand without getting all technical about a few misquoted words?

In any case, this is really just a little nit-pick not worth pursuing so...

Don't reply to that.

Now then, with that aside, I think it's a good time to propose that this discussion start from square one. Before anyone reacts with raised eyebrows or facepalms, I'm just suggesting that a little bit of coherence would be in good order.

Okay, first suggestion: Just what exactly constitutes critique? There seem to be a lot of people from all sides of the spectrum. Pro-critique, not-pro-critique and neutralisks... whoops! Anyway, I think it's a good idea for everyone to come to a consensus as to what actually constitutes critique before taking this discussion any further, although, this might also warrant splitting this thread a bit more.

This is just a suggestion so that everyone knows what they're actually arguing about. I'm not even sure if we're all talking about the same thing anymore because it seems to me that everyone has their own mental or explicit definition of "critique" which might not always be compatible with other people's versions.

As an aside: since the pro critique people are the ones making the proposal, I think the privilege of defining this term belongs to them. Could one of you please come up with a definition that everyone can agree on?

[yummy]

Well, I'd say, a critique is 100% subjective, so there's not going to be any consensus there.
Really, it's just like flavors and colors.

So it's bound to be interpreted either in a good or a bad way, depending on one's likings or references.
For example, I critique based on a sociologic view, but it's not accurate at all, and sometimes my aesthetics fail because I didn't receive any artistic academic education.

Well, sure there's going to be a majority of people who like this and that, but overall, critiques are only meanful when it helps one develop in one way, in one's style, according to one's potential.

To motivate people in posting things would be... to help them know what the basics of game making are? Because most of the people who begin to create new stories aren't familiar with notions of storytelling techniques, don't know how to plan, don't limit their ambitions to something they would at least finish (including me).
You'd really be surprised at the number of people viewing websites where they can read things that will help them in a way (tips, how-to, ideas...)

[DaFool]

I wonder if at least part of the problem with critique on this forum is that, when it comes to visual novels, the amount of work put into a project is often very large, when compared to other creative forms.

Visual novels are a subset of video games... whether they're more like books or games is debateable, but the production process highly resembles the production process of creating games. And everybody knows that making games (as opposed to playing them) can be far from fun. The advantage of video games is that you can take a single sprite and make it move according to user input, a good game mechanic is potentially worth hours of replay time. Whereas with VNs once the text to read runs out, that's it - game over.

Perhaps part of the solution can be removing some of the secrecy that has become endemic to the forum.
...
I don't know how to move from the current realm of secrecy to a place where people are more comfortable posting their in-development work publicly. Perhaps a start would be to pick one day a week to encourage people to post a product of their work on the forum, for comment - not a by-product, but a product that could go in the final game, but could also be improved. The idea would be to encourage people to get in the habit of working in public, at least when that public includes the community of game makers.

The problem with this approach is almost all of our projects are not yet large enough to survive a full disclosure of assets, even the ones that take years to complete... as long as they're only being made by a handful of contributors. Let's say I post my character sprites... whoops, that's already 20% of my total art assets! What will I have left to show for the final game? I'm also notorious for employing brutally efficient design methodologies in my games -- sure they may suck, but at least I'll be able to get away with showing the same damn background image 20 times! The very least I can do is not show that background until the game is finished.

[PyTom]

The problem with this approach is almost all of our projects are not yet large enough to survive a full disclosure of assets, even the ones that take years to complete... as long as they're only being made by a handful of contributors. Let's say I post my character sprites... whoops, that's already 20% of my total art assets! What will I have left to show for the final game? I'm also notorious for employing brutally efficient design methodologies in my games -- sure they may suck, but at least I'll be able to get away with showing the same damn background image 20 times! The very least I can do is not show that background until the game is finished.

I think the implicit assumption here is that you're treating the forums as the audience for your game. I'm not sure that's the right assumption to make.

Checking out the download stats, I see that Moonlight Walks was downloaded more than 30k times from download.com alone. Although I don't have an easy way of getting the actual number, I think that it's been downloaded over 100k times from the main site. So even if we assume everyone here on the LSF played the game (doubtful) that's still a small fraction of the audience a game can get with a minimal effort at promotion.

If you're treating this forum as a large portion of your audience, then you're probably both underestimating your potential audience, and neglecting what the forum could be - a community of fellow makers (and interested observers) who can help you to improve the end result.

[Deji]

I think you guys have a good point about the disclosure of projects under development.

When I originally took part of the critique-encouraging discussion, and even made that [Critique Please] tag encouragement, I was hoping that it would help people improve but also to find individuals amongst the community that one could share the private contents of their game in progress with in order to get more feedback and have better chances to get useful advice to make a good finished project, without having to disclose everything. But that would require a critque-friendly board or a place like a recruitment bpoard, where you pretty much ask to 'recruit' people to give you feedback under non-disclosure terms, or just lurking and find members that you like how they give feedback, and PM them for help individually.

I see now that we indeed are treating the forum members as the potential audience, so of course we don't want to spoil them! But you're right, there is a wider audience (even if just by a dozen of people) out there that won't come to the forum to get spoiled by the development/wip thread, and we could indeed disclose part, most or all of the material of a game in progress on the board here without it having too much of an impact. at least it'd be a good thing for people working on free and/or personal projects, as people working on commercial ones would rather keep things secret from all people until release date.



I'm making a personal move towards this, like an experiment, with my own personal-to-be-worked-on-very-on-and-off project to see how it works. I could really use the feedback

[Spiky Caterpillar]

The problem with this approach is almost all of our projects are not yet large enough to survive a full disclosure of assets, even the ones that take years to complete... as long as they're only being made by a handful of contributors. Let's say I post my character sprites... whoops, that's already 20% of my total art assets! What will I have left to show for the final game? I'm also notorious for employing brutally efficient design methodologies in my games -- sure they may suck, but at least I'll be able to get away with showing the same damn background image 20 times! The very least I can do is not show that background until the game is finished.

I'm not sure that asset disclosure is really going to kill a game. Seeing all of Yamiko's expressions doesn't necessarily give away the storyline... but actually, for critique/skill development threads to be meaningful, you wouldn't want to be posting the finished pictures. You'd want to be posting stuff at the sketch level, where having to go back and change something because you realise the poster complaining that the hero has three hands, the opabinia's mouthstalk is too short, and the Kremlin doesn't have tentacles is actually *right* isn't that annoying.

A thread full of sketches is unlikely to spoil the motive for people to unlock all the CGs, and may actually be more useful to other artists than a thread showcasing the finished pieces would be.