Do you like GxB or BxG?

[Auro-Cyanide]

Do you like GxB or BxG? Why?

What is GxB and BxG?

Girl chases Boy/s and Boy chases Girl/s. Basically games where the goal is to obtain another character romantically. The only difference between the two is the gender of the protagonist and the gender of the obtainable characters. There are also BxB and GxG games, as well as mixtures of the above.

[gundestiny]

Hell, a game could be lamp x TV, and I could still enjoy it as long as it's well written enough.

I want to make a game about the romance of a Lamp and a TV now.

romance of a lamp?

It's a rip-off of Romance of the Three Kingdoms
[jks]
I have a feeling the TV will cheat on the Lamp with the Blinds... more rope to pull :O

In regards to GxB and BxG, I like playing both, but even being a girl, I prefer BxGs more.
Don't really know why, but I guess it dumbs down to personal taste xD
But I would never give up a good storyline just for it to be GxB or BxG

[MaskedIdentity]

To be honest I prefer GxB more then BxG, mostly due to the fact I am a girl.
Also I tend to find that most BxG games somehow put fan service in.

I play both depending on the story really. If it interests me, I play it.

[Lumen_Astrum]

You know when I was little, I kinda got exposed to boy's games and I loved BxG.
Now I find it stupid (because I'm playing a game for boys and my brother teases me a tomboy) and I liked GxB.
Another reason for liking GxB is that I'm a girl. And it teaches you how to flirt. xD Joke.

[mysterialize]

Hell, a game could be lamp x TV, and I could still enjoy it as long as it's well written enough.

I want to make a game about the romance of a Lamp and a TV now.

It's a rip-off of Romance of the Three Kingdoms
[jks]
I have a feeling the TV will cheat on the Lamp with the Blinds... more rope to pull :O

It will make my day if someone actually makes this.

Now I find it stupid (because I'm playing a game for boys and my brother teases me a tomboy) and I liked GxB.

What? Is there something wrong with being a tomboy? I guess there's nothing wrong with not wanting to be a tomboy, too, but it seems strange to use either as a negative thing.

[Lumen_Astrum]

I forgot to write that I had traumas in BxG. (you know, those... not for 18 and below...)
But then yeah, GxB is more likable in my part because I'm a girl.

[Liminality]

Hmmm. I suppose I'm pretty weird, huh? I'm a girl, but I really prefer to play B x G games. It has nothing to do with my sexuality in real life, and it's a difficult concept to convey... However, I really hate the personalities of girls, especially in VNs. They don't suit me. If I can't relate to the main character, it doesn't matter what the plot is like, because in moments where I'm not actually making decisions, the main character will always react in a way that I don't agree with... If the female main character isn't an otaku, like in Re: Alistair ++ (WHICH I LOVED, BY THE WAY), I can't relate because my entire personality revolves around odd obsessions and stubbornness.

It could also be because the genre just works better for B x G games. G x B games are more often made simply because of the lack of them, and for girls to squeal over pretty guys. The plot ends up being weak, because so much more effort is put into creating characters girls will find attractive that it becomes a lot more difficult to create a well rounded plot. Girls are so picky that you have to have a wide variety of appearances and personalities for the game to be even mildly popular.

Also, because most otome (G x B) games are made by girls, the male characters often project an image that the writer finds appealing, without consideration of the audience. Boys in those games usually spout out cheesy lines and weak confessions that tend to throw me off and just irritate me, because I hate those kinds of people... Girl writers also have a tendency to break character.

Vice versa, a dating sim made for guys by guys ends up being interesting and allows some sort of insight into the male mind. When made by a girl, the girls react realistically and project a cute aura more than the sexy, overly fanservice images some male-created characters project, because girls constantly undermine their 2D competitors.

Also, I have a big brother complex and those situations are more common in B x G. And loli characters are moe.

[Aleema]

It could also be because the genre just works better for B x G games. G x B games are more often made simply because of the lack of them, and for girls to squeal over pretty guys. The plot ends up being weak, because so much more effort is put into creating characters girls will find attractive that it becomes a lot more difficult to create a well rounded plot.

Again, I think there needs to be distinction between GxB and otome. Otome is a dating sim. Regardless of the gender, a dating sim is mostly fanservice. Pretty 2D characters, cliches/moe, cheesy dating lines, etc. GxB, however, is just a sexual persuasion and doesn't, by any standards, speak for all female protagonists who may find love in their stories. It's a shame that you've combined the two genres together so that you automatically assume anything with "GxB" means it's shallow, but it's not entirely your fault with how both genres are lumped together in one forum here. They're not the same thing. Incidental romance and dating sims are very different. And the only times I see GxB being made just because its GxB is from established publishers who want to "tap in" to that demographic and write a crappy game for quick money. I don't see this practice anywhere in Lemmasoft, so I assume you mean those companies? All one or two of them?

Though it must also be frustrating for you to not play 99% of games because they don't sport an otaku main character. (I don't even consider Re:Alistair's MC to be otaku ..?)

Girls are so picky that you have to have a wide variety of appearances and personalities for the game to be even mildly popular.

I think you'll find that everyone has different tastes, whether in appearance or personality. So what exactly are you saying about men? All they need are a good pair of boobs? I see just as many options in BxG dating sims as I see in otome, so I'm not sure what this is based on.

I'm also going to outright say I disagree with that statement entirely. Would you consider Dragon Age or Mass Effect "mildly popular"? Their total count of GxB romances was 3, combined.

Also, because most otome (G x B) games are made by girls, the male characters often project an image that the writer finds appealing, without consideration of the audience. Boys in those games usually spout out cheesy lines and weak confessions that tend to throw me off and just irritate me, because I hate those kinds of people... Girl writers also have a tendency to break character.

You're contradicting yourself ... Are you saying that a GxB author personally has a wide range of tastes that would make their average love interest count significantly higher than BxG games? If they didn't consider their audience, why are there so many LIs (by your assumption)? Also, if you're referencing indie games here on the forum, why shouldn't the author design characters they find appealing? I can guarantee you everyone, regardless of persuasion, does that. We're not being paid to do this. Is that your beef? If there were women developers developing otome games on a company budget, hell yeah they'd be up to standard to your so-called BxG games. That's the problem, there aren't. You're just talking about indie games in general. GxB happens to be strictly mostly an indie market right now.

While you're entitled to your own perceptions and opinions, as someone who develops in the GxB category and has friends working in such a category, it's upsetting to see such wild generalizations that degrade our work, and with no real basis. But bias rarely does ... so ... As you were.

[chensterrain]

Again, I think there needs to be distinction between GxB and otome. Otome is a dating sim. Regardless of the gender, a dating sim is mostly fanservice. Pretty 2D characters, cliches/moe, cheesy dating lines, etc.

I don't think I've ever actually heard this definition of otome games before (or even much separation between otome and GxB, to be honest - that seems to occur mostly on this forum and nowhere else, as far as I can tell): I know the Japanese Wikipedia page (hurr wikipedia, it's the most authoritative source I've been able to find, unfortunately) pretty much just says that an otome game is 'within the spectrum of games aimed at girls, a game where the main character is female' and then 'a game where the player is a 'maiden', or where the main character is a teenage 'maiden''. At any rate, it doesn't say anything about otome games specifically being dating sims, and there are plenty of games that aren't dating sims that are considered to be otome (Yo Jin Bo, Hakuouki, Starry Sky etc.) which are all also GxB as far as I can tell. These categories are really confusing!

Though I guess since the GxB category only exists in the western fandom, it makes sense for the Japanese definition of otome games to be pretty broad, so feel free to disregard my ramblings. In my mind, otome and GxB are basically the same thing (though I guess since GxB specifically denotes winnable male characters, otome could be used to describe yuri games too, though I don't know if any otome yuri games exist), ah well!

[Mirage]

I second chensterrain. Before Lemmasoft, I have never heard of anything about the difference between GxB and Otome. Why does it has to be distinctly separated? Who made this rule? Japanese? They certainly don't. I have Japanese friends who tell me they are the same thing, just as Galge is BxG. Japan Wiki also supports this notion.

This is coming from someone who got their VN tagged as BxG, just for sporting a guy main character, where there isn't even romance in the entire story. Which in my opinion makes even less sense than GxB = Otome tag.

Btw, I doubt GxG (yuri) is specifically for female, so calling it otome is weird at best. That's like calling BL games Galge. lol

[chensterrain]

Btw, I doubt GxG (yuri) is specifically for female, so calling it otome is weird at best. That's like calling BL games Galge. lol

Heh, I just meant that some shoujo manga contain GxG and are still considered shoujo (like the Rose of Versailles, for instance, and quite a few other manga from the seventies), so if hypothetically someone made a GxG game with a young, female lead and flowery, girly romances, it could technically be called otome. Possibly. I'm not sure if any such games exist, though - the only yuri game I know of is Aoi Shiro, and I'm pretty sure that's aimed at guys.

[papillon]

And then if we get really picky in the definitions some will argue that Aoi Shiro is a shoujo-ai game because 'yuri' only applies when there's sex! (Aoi Shiro, while I love it dearly, is very weird on the lesbian angle. Very few of the couples even say they're romantically interested at all. It's all subtext and vampiric innuendo... That game is such a tease!)

Explicit lesbian games are supposedly very rare outside of dojinsoft.

A proper Marimite dating sim would likely be shoujo still. (And it would *also* be extremely coy about ever admitting that anyone within said dating sim was actually dating at all...)

[papillon]

(Doing this in a separate post because it's replying to one person and going to be LONG.)

It could also be because the genre just works better for B x G games.

The only reason I've ever heard someone attempt to argue that the genre is intrinsically better for BxG than GxB was a guy arguing that GxB made no sense because girls could not possibly approach romantic interests under any circumstances, so how could you make a game about them? What would they do, stand there and drop a handkerchief? (In other words, weird sexism! And 'weird sexism' is sometimes at work in Japanese otome games as well, particularly ones that involve sex, as that attitude of "the girl can never, ever, ever be forward in any way" leads to a lot of swooning and ravishing if you know what I mean.)

G x B games are more often made simply because of the lack of them, and for girls to squeal over pretty guys. The plot ends up being weak, because so much more effort is put into creating characters girls will find attractive that it becomes a lot more difficult to create a well rounded plot. Girls are so picky that you have to have a wide variety of appearances and personalities for the game to be even mildly popular.

This... doesn't make a lot of sense. Many galges put more effort into creating characters that guys will find attractive than the plot, and into making a wide variety of them. Often much wider than in games for girls. There are BxG franchises with DOZENS of girls to pick from, something I've never seen in GxB.

There are many games that are popular that have only two or three romanceable options. For English speakers, at least. I admit to not knowing all the sales figures for Japan. Do you have data? (Research can be useful!)

Also, because most otome (G x B) games are made by girls, the male characters often project an image that the writer finds appealing, without consideration of the audience. Boys in those games usually spout out cheesy lines and weak confessions that tend to throw me off and just irritate me, because I hate those kinds of people...

Yeah, you can say the exact same thing about BxG, and many do, over and over again! Girls in those games are often ridiculously unrealistic because they're made to cater to a fetish of the writer or the audience. Useless little moeblobs who live to be cute and need The Player!

Girl writers also have a tendency to break character.

Stereotypically (not truthfully) female writers are generally rumored to be better at maintaining character and emotions. In actual fact, it doesn't matter whether you're male, female, or otherwise, it matters whether you have empathy and decent writing ability.

Vice versa, a dating sim made for guys by guys ends up being interesting and allows some sort of insight into the male mind. When made by a girl, the girls react realistically and project a cute aura more than the sexy, overly fanservice images some male-created characters project,

wait what? I don't even understand what you're saying here. first you're saying "games by guys teach us more about guys" which, sure, that's a possible angle to take. then it seems like you're saying games by girls are more realistic... but this is a BAD thing?

because girls constantly undermine their 2D competitors.

WTF? I'm sorry, but... just... WTF?

I may be misinterpreting you here, but this sounds disturbingly similar to some of the raging misogynist nonsense I occasionally hear from poorly socialised male hentai fans. "Lol, girls object to my beating and raping lolis because they're just jealous!!!" Uh... No. (Not to say that all BxG games include stuff like that, obviously. I play a lot of BxG myself. I like both!)

Not writing a ludicrously fanservicey character because it's not realistic and the author is not personally turned on by that behavior so feels no need to include it does not indicate that the author is having some kind of catfight with the character.

[Liminality]

Whoa, let me just clarify that I'm in no way attacking any of the Lemma Soft game makers. That's a completely different genre entirely. I used Re: Alistair ++ as a reference, but for the most part, I'm talking about Japanese made VNs and smaller ones you find on the internet made by one-person teams here. Sorry. The GOOD Lemma Soft games tend to not have a lot of the stereotypes I'm talking about because most of you are completely aware of that, but in other places, I found that a lot of what I said is true. A couple of these things do slip into even well-made games, but that's just my opinion...

And yes, I do tend to contradict myself and sound confusing. It was pretty late at night. I probably shouldn't have bothered posting until I could think coherently to begin with.

The only reason I've ever heard someone attempt to argue that the genre is intrinsically better for BxG than GxB was a guy arguing that GxB made no sense because girls could not possibly approach romantic interests under any circumstances, so how could you make a game about them? What would they do, stand there and drop a handkerchief? (In other words, weird sexism! And 'weird sexism' is sometimes at work in Japanese otome games as well, particularly ones that involve sex, as that attitude of "the girl can never, ever, ever be forward in any way" leads to a lot of swooning and ravishing if you know what I mean.)

In my opinion, because B x G was the original target audience, it's had many more years to develop as a strong genre. It becomes a lot easier to incorporate female love interests because game makers have something to stand as an example. "What sort of characters do guys like in a game?" They can just take a list at things that were popular, and draw inspiration for that. At the moment, B x G is where most of the effort can and does go into, because that was the original target audience and still the main focus. Especially in Japan, there isn't a lot of focus on the wants of female otaku. Statistically, the majority of girls simply don't game to begin with. Although that's starting to change over time, it's still a large factor in the decisions of the gaming industry. I think it works for almost any genre, not just dating sims.

This... doesn't make a lot of sense. Many galges put more effort into creating characters that guys will find attractive than the plot, and into making a wide variety of them. Often much wider than in games for girls. There are BxG franchises with DOZENS of girls to pick from, something I've never seen in GxB.

You're right that this isn't very dependable if you're looking at games here, or most English made games. It happens occasionally, but not as often. I'm talking about commercially made Japanese games. Games like Clannad offer quite a few bachelorettes and sex scenes for each of them, but the plot is deep and can move you to tears. A lot of the most popular games tend to be like that. B x G, with a deep plot. When it comes to being made commercially, I've seen a lot of games for girls fall short in the plot department and focus entirely on the romance. For lack of a better reference at the moment, I'll just point out the transition between Harvest Moon and Harvest Moon for Girls. It was made just for the sake of attracting a female market. While the female bachelorettes in the original had well-rounded personalities because they were meant to be dated, their male counterparts didn't have much appeal because they were created just for the purpose of drawing a female audience. The Harvest Moon games continue that pattern. While the female characters are all well-rounded individuals, the male characters just all feel a bit... lacking.

Yeah, you can say the exact same thing about BxG, and many do, over and over again! Girls in those games are often ridiculously unrealistic because they're made to cater to a fetish of the writer or the audience. Useless little moeblobs who live to be cute and need The Player!

Yeah, you're pretty much right about that. All I can say in rebuttal is that at least B x G games have examples to draw from when it comes to interactions with girls-- other popular games. There isn't a lot of reference for girl game makers, so it can sometimes become a tendency to have the characters say what you WANT them to say, instead of what they probably would. That's not really a big contributing factor though.

Stereotypically (not truthfully) female writers are generally rumored to be better at maintaining character and emotions. In actual fact, it doesn't matter whether you're male, female, or otherwise, it matters whether you have empathy and decent writing ability.

Not even gonna say anything. I don't even know why I wrote that originally. It was like an insult to myself.

Vice versa, a dating sim made for guys by guys ends up being interesting and allows some sort of insight into the male mind. When made by a girl, the girls react realistically and project a cute aura more than the sexy, overly fanservice images some male-created characters project,

wait what? I don't even understand what you're saying here. first you're saying "games by guys teach us more about guys" which, sure, that's a possible angle to take. then it seems like you're saying games by girls are more realistic... but this is a BAD thing?

Another thing that I have no idea why I typed. Hmmm. I suppose what I meant is that B x G games made by girls are better than when they're made by guys, because they're not just moeblobs. So what I was saying in the long run is that I'd prefer girls to try making B x G games more instead of insisting "there aren't enough G x B games!" and making one just for the heck of it. Since I'm a girl, it's just not fun for me to chase after guy characters someone else made up, especially when I have to deal with guy troubles in real life. So B x G games are just more interesting for me. Making realistic characters isn't a bad thing at all.

I may be misinterpreting you here, but this sounds disturbingly similar to some of the raging misogynist nonsense I occasionally hear from poorly socialised male hentai fans. "Lol, girls object to my beating and raping lolis because they're just jealous!!!" Uh... No. (Not to say that all BxG games include stuff like that, obviously. I play a lot of BxG myself. I like both!)

Not writing a ludicrously fanservicey character because it's not realistic and the author is not personally turned on by that behavior so feels no need to include it does not indicate that the author is having some kind of catfight with the character.

Yeah, you are kind of misinterpreting me here... Remember, I'm a girl too. D8 I don't mean it like that. It's just that girls are more likely to create girl characters that aren't as over the top. The characters become more realistic, because a lot of times we look at guy made games and go "that's ridiculous! A girl would never do that! And every character looks like a giant moeblob!" So girls could probably make those games better because they have a more realistic view on other girls... I guess.

Though it must also be frustrating for you to not play 99% of games because they don't sport an otaku main character. (I don't even consider Re:Alistair's MC to be otaku ..?)

I think all of your responses are pretty much answered in the above as well... except this. There are different kinds of otaku. The main character of that one is a gaming otaku. I'll also play it if it doesn't have an otaku, but having a character with a hobby (giving her an attachment to something) usually ends up being more fun than playing a blank slate that bounces around going "Ooh look there are guys around me now I get to date one of them!" The hobby gives them an alternate goal and focus.

So I guess what I meant by that post in the long run is that stuff becomes more tasteful when you have multiple gender-views on it. I don't always like how guys make B x G games sometimes, and I don't like how girls make G x B games sometimes. However, between the two, I just prefer playing B x G.

[papillon]

Heh, no worries. I know very well a lot of what I say comes out crazy sometimes!

In my opinion, because B x G was the original target audience, it's had many more years to develop as a strong genre. It becomes a lot easier to incorporate female love interests because game makers have something to stand as an example.

Yeah, this does make a difference. Especially when people are comparing the "best" games in a genre... when you factor in the old joke statistic about 99% of everything being crap, a genre that's been around longer is much more likely to have managed to get some non-crap polished and out there.