Utsukushii Planet - 2nd french demo released

[mikey]

I was just about to point out the enormous size of your project. The complexity grows exponentially with relationships if you add more characters.

There's also a worrying amount of blanks in the concept, given how good the demo looks. I'd advise you to lay out a design, complete with paths, branches, relationships and so on, so you know the scope.

The tech demo is great, but if you decide to work on the project, the bells and whistles should come very very last. They do give the project a lot of the charisma, but for most of the time, the work should be wrapped up in placeholder environments and debug modes (wireframe, so to say), because it slows down immensely, especially in big projects.

I don't actually see a big (read: 2-3 hour playtime) multipath VN with 6 girls and a bit of varied gameplay as an impossibility anymore, and I think that with very good planning and pre-production (setting limits) this can be done in a year and a half while having a reasonable life, counting in blocks and unforeseen things.

But you'll need to stay very focused, make as little drafting, sketching and concept evaluation as possible, because it takes a huge amount of time away. I'd especially advise against "on-the-go" working, where you start with one chapter and finish it completely, before starting another one. Like building a house, you don't do it room by room, but globally. The paint and deco comes last.

Sorry! But it's such a great looking thing, even for me who doesn't like cosmic things, so I'd like to see this one done, as Alessio said it could be a killer ^_^

[PyTom]

I was just about to point out the enormous size of your project. The complexity grows exponentially with relationships if you add more characters.

I'm not sure about exponentially... I'd probably guess it grows quadratically.

(The preceding message was brought to you by more years of CS education then I care to admit.)

[monele]

Thanks for all these advices. I do realize it's a big project since it's the only kind of project I can imagine doing... I don't realize how freakingly huge it is though... otherwise I'd be running around naked and screaming.

The suddenly big number of characters *is* scary. I started with 4 girls (which is already a lot) and a late addition made this 6. I might choose to make some of them uh... non-romanceable (?) but they usually end up being the only girls the players want to date XD.

PyTom : the idea of having some girls not meet each other is one possibility I'm considering.
I could also have only 2 paths : one where you meet girl A & B, the other where you meet girl C & D. The choice of these couples would depend on which relationships between them are the most interesting then.


To be honest, the demo was done in that "on-the-go" way with only a slight idea of what happens in the whole story. It was really just a test. Only now am I really working on the skeleton of the game to make things coherent. I think I can *write* properly, but I know making up plots that fit my game ideas is something else @_@... (I know, I should find game ideas that fit a plot instead but I just can't work that way ._.)

[absinthe]

I'm playing with an RPG structure in a fantasy setting right now... it's fun to work with, but there's a lot to keep track of. But it's a lot less intimidating than "Okay, each branch branches again, then again, which means... a billion branches!!!"

Anyway, some ideas for story, premise, hooks, etc., mostly derived from my pop-culture saturated brain and vast sci-fi collection.

"I've been framed for the murder of a high-ranking government official on planet Y, and I have to figure out who did it before I get killed! Plus I've somehow managed to rescue the official's daughter, and now she won't leave me alone. Even better, the bounty hunter who is trying to kill me is my ex-girlfriend."

"I have no idea who I am, and why is everyone trying to kill me?"
- this one is totally classic, some might say cliched.

"An alien race is using my brain as a storage dump for their most crucial information. Now everyone wants my brain... but I'm still using it!"

An old flame of the hero's turns up dead on a distant planet, and even though he won't admit he cares, he still shows up to investigate. Turns out she's still alive but needs his help.

The MacGuffin is missing (or needs to be recovered), and the hero is the only one who can find it. Twist, nobody, including the hero, believes it's important except for one person. Recovering it requires visits to multiple planets with multiple sub-quests.

Sci-fi is fun because there are so many possibilities.

[monele]

Sci-fi is fun because there are so many possibilities

And is painful for the same reason . So many things that could happen and I can't pick one XD. Thanks for all the ideas. I think I like the not-really-dead-old-flame idea the best so far ^^


To give an idea of what I'm aiming for right now here's a very short and... coherence-lacking synopsis :

The protagonist, along with a small team, travel around space aboard a nice spaceship. Since I want comical situations, they'd be rather unlucky/clumsy/inexperienced (think Slayers).
Through the player's very first choices, the protagonist meets one of the main ladies who, for one reason or another, joins the team.

At that point I'll need a good reason to justify what follows : the whole team completes quests/missions around the universe. Missions for a government, quests for one of the girls, etc... That's where co-writers could hop in and make a quest of their own.

As for the endings... there would be at least one ending per girl which consists in solving her main problem by completing a number of quests.
There could be separate endings if you solve some more neutral problem (uh, save the universe? )


Additional info on quests : I'd like to put at least *one* choice within each. It would decide on your behaviour during it : easy/hard way, butcher/diplomat, etc... The consequences would be how much each girl likes you (each one reacting to different behaviours) and it could also affect what kind of missions you're given later and by whom (the Galactic Security Forces or the infamous Star Pirates ?)

Additional info on endings : I have a strange need to make "composed" endings. This means you will probably be able to solve one girl's problem, one neutral problem and part of the spaceship mystery in one game. Your ending will then reflect how good you did on these three parts.

[Alessio]

It would decide on your behaviour during it : easy/hard way, butcher/diplomat, etc... The consequences would be how much each girl likes you

In that case I'd recommend making an overview table listing the main ladies and components that influence their opinion. That will also help you in deciding how to make the ladies' character different from each other.

[Alessio]

Okay, this plot outline means that we already need quite a few "modules" to cover the whole story if we keep everything simple:

[absinthe]

And is painful for the same reason . So many things that could happen and I can't pick one XD. Thanks for all the ideas. I think I like the not-really-dead-old-flame idea the best so far ^^

No problem, ideas are easy. A really good plot is hard; it's really something the writers should bounce off each other until it's perfect. Plus, if it's too specific here, it won't be a surprise!

But since you're using side-quests, you can use just about any idea. Just pick one to magnify and make the main plot, and anything else you like, trim it down and use it as a side-quest.

Additional info on quests : I'd like to put at least *one* choice within each. It would decide on your behaviour during it : easy/hard way, butcher/diplomat, etc... The consequences would be how much each girl likes you (each one reacting to different behaviours) and it could also affect what kind of missions you're given later and by whom (the Galactic Security Forces or the infamous Star Pirates ?)

I've always been fond of the 'easy but distasteful' vs. 'hard but noble' choice. The best is when the NPCs are so realistic and endearing that you actually feel guilty about making less than noble choices and disappointing them. Or maybe some people feel pleased at this. I always feel guilty.

[monele]

Alessio : Hey, nice! What was this done with ? ^.^ *has something to do the same but is curious*
Ne, if when I see this and think "Mm, looks like a short game."... am I crazy? ^^;;...

How would you describe a "module" ? Sounds like it could be called a "scene" or an "event", am I right ?

Ok, so... The first two lines are perfect. The mission line is fine for a simplified version. The complex version would need a few columns with "girl missions" and "other missions", but also a "random events" (as you move through the universe, you might trigger a few events such as pirate attacks, space monsters, or whatever 'surprise' one could imagine for a space setting).
(note : they might not be *random* but should seem like they break in the regular pace of things)

As for the endings, maybe there won't be "bad" endings per se. It will depend on my mood I guess ^^;. To replace these, there would be "just friends" endings though (which isn't bad, but... could be better ^^).

The best is when the NPCs are so realistic and endearing that you actually feel guilty about making less than noble choices and disappointing them.

That's exactly what I want to pull off ^.^ *optimistic*.

[Alessio]

Hey, nice! :D What was this done with ?

A screenshot of an MS Excel table. Rocket science applications we're using in this forum, eh? ^_^;;;;
On the serious side, Excel is quite handy since it allows me to easily move boxes around, and the amount of text in the boxes can be quite big in the final polished version.

How would you describe a "module" ? Sounds like it could be called a "scene" or an "event", am I right ?

My very own arbitrary definition of module is a story part that can be considered as a set of events belonging together, and which can be separated from other events. I see its main purpose in supporting the author during planning and writing.

I don't use the word "scene" since a module is not necessarily recognizable as such by the player (the player may not even notice she's moving through these modules). It might be difficult to think in modules if you tend to do extremely flexible scripts, but I found that this approach helps me enormously.

The mission line is fine for a simplified version. The complex version would need a few columns with "girl missions" and "other missions", but also a "random events"

The module chart was full of assumptions of course... Your approach sounds very good and will definitely make the story a very replayable one. Maybe you should just share your chart/overview with collaborators, it'll be easier to work on a document than to post ideas here and there in the forum thread.

Just remember to not exaggerate - every event/module will have to be filled with graphics, music, text... and good ones! That means a lot of work.

Edit:

Ne, if when I see this and think "Mm, looks like a short game."... am I crazy? ^^;;...

I guess you are... ^_^ If every module has the size I suspect it will have, then already that "simple" story would be huge. Already much, much bigger than my G!MB VN, which took me over a year to make. And it had much less graphical eye-candy than Utsukushii Planet.

[monele]

A screenshot of an MS Excel table.

Excel making game concepts look good... This is almost paradoxal ^.^

My very own arbitrary definition of module is a story part that can be considered as a set of events belonging together

I do use the same thinking except I call them "arcs" or more generally "stories". It will be really easy to apply this to UP, given the very modular approach.

Your approach sounds very good and will definitely make the story a very replayable one.

This is another one of my goals so I'm glad it stands out from the description ^.^

Maybe you should just share your chart/overview with collaborators, it'll be easier to work on a document than to post ideas here and there in the forum thread.

The question is : who are they, and where could we keep discussing things in a similar fashion ? I guess I could get my old wiki back on track for this...

Just remember to not exaggerate - every event/module will have to be filled with graphics, music, text... and good ones! That means a lot of work.

My biggest fear is to end up with a short game that makes you think "... wah ? That's all ??". And since I want it to have replay value, it will need to be even larger than a kinetic novel of the same length.

My solutions to help :

- Modularisation, as said above. Many missions should be independant, like short filler episodes in a series. Hopefully, they won't need too many specific graphics.
- Only one full body sprite per character. Expressions will be displayed next to the text, in a square box showing the face.
- Reuse of planets : there will be a few planets to discover in the game. They will all have strong particularities (the sand planet, the urban planet, the jungle planet, etc...) which should help make up at least 2 or 3 missions based on their themes. This helps in reusing backgrounds, sounds, and even local characters.

If every module has the size I suspect it will have, then already that "simple" story would be huge.

And that's what I probably don't get yet . Depending on my mood, I'll think the 10 minutes long demo is a lot, or is really nothing for the amount of work put into it XD. You can stretch that thought to the whole game.

much bigger than my G!MB VN, which took me over a year to make. And it had much less graphical eye-candy than Utsukushii Planet.

*that* scares me a lot XD... Btw, what was the longest part in the making of your game ? Making up the story ? Drawing stuff ? Making music ? Maybe it was all the same?
Because to me, story is the worst aspect. If I have an idea of what there is to draw, it's usually not a problem. It takes time, but I progress steadily. Whereas the story is still handing in the air and it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back all the time ^^;

[Alessio]

who are they [Collaborators], and where could we keep discussing things in a similar fashion ? I guess I could get my old wiki back on track for this...

Who? Well, list what help you specifically need and place a call here. And count me in for story/music. :) A Wiki (or a threaded discussion in this forum, or a shared document of some sort) is a good idea, since this thread here will be hard to read after a few months. Also, do you want to hide the discussion (to keep the surprise) or do you want the discussion to be public (might be more motivating and a source of inspiration for others)?

My biggest fear is to end up with a short game that makes you think "... wah ? That's all ??"

I doubt that would happen, the story is big enough to dictate the size. There's no way you could make it short unless you wrote everyting in synopsis-style. :)

Btw, what was the longest part in the making of your game ? Making up the story ? Drawing stuff ? Making music ? Maybe it was all the same?

Well, of course my 1+ years are calendar time and not working man-hours. It took that long because of my many other hobbies (and a daytime job too, I seem to recall vaguely...). So if I had turned G!MB into my main and only hobby, my guess is it could have been done in a third of the time or so.

A big reason was this being the first time I did many things: Finding out how Ren'Py works, how GIMP works, how to write for a VN (as e.g. opposed to a screenplay), how to build the music engine, selecting and processing background pictures, ensuring continuity, etc. Also, I don't excel at drawing, so that took some time too. Basically, for me technical issues took most of the time.

Planning the story was hard, but the actual writing process itself went very smoothly. I seem to feel at ease writing modules within a pre-defined framework and towards a specific target (i.e. fleshing out the story based on the skeleton of the plot is a breeze). But that only worked because I forced myself to make a good story plan beforehand (which I don't like doing all by myself).

Thus, first steps first... make the plan and only begin writing when you know what's needed. Especially if the story will have many co-writers.

[mikey]

My biggest fear is to end up with a short game that makes you think "... wah ? That's all ??"

It depends on how you set up the story. You can make a small story, a small game after which people may say "Any longer, and it wouldn't be it."

Never mind me though, just defending ministories a bit.

[monele]

Who? Well, list what help you specifically need and place a call here. And count me in for story/music.

Music is definately yours ^^. If the game length justifies it, I might even add an opening (using the Ren'Py engine) and it'll need a theme too ^.^

For everything else I want to see what I can come up with by myself (I'm still trying to prove myself I can make a game on my own ^^; ). I might require help for backgrounds and parts of the story (probably independant missions to fill up the game with content). Depending on how the interface ends up, I could also need small animated sprites... Oh yea and since I suck at designing mechanical things... I could need help for that too ^^;

A Wiki (or a threaded discussion in this forum, or a shared document of some sort) is a good idea, since this thread here will be hard to read after a few months. Also, do you want to hide the discussion (to keep the surprise) or do you want the discussion to be public (might be more motivating and a source of inspiration for others)?

Isn't this already a threaded discussion ? If you mean having one thread per subject (story, graphics), I guess it's alright too.
As for hiding things, I think I'd like to keep the "meat" of the game secret (missions, most stories, endings). But discussing the synopsis as has been done so far is ok. Basically, anything you'd find on an official website is good ^^

Planning the story was hard, but the actual writing process itself went very smoothly.

I *think* I'll go through the same things . When plotting, I tend to go in all directions with "ifs" and can't get anything set in stone ^^;

I seem to feel at ease writing modules within a pre-defined framework and towards a specific target (i.e. fleshing out the story based on the skeleton of the plot is a breeze). But that only worked because I forced myself to make a good story plan beforehand (which I don't like doing all by myself).

Was the G!MB plot done collaboratively then ? Or have you realized, since, that you didn't like do it alone?



Ok, this said, I have a three days weekend coming and I plan to use it well ^.^. I'll work on the overall plot as much as I can.

[Alessio]

Was the G!MB plot done collaboratively then ? Or have you realized, since, that you didn't like do it alone?

The latter - G!MB I did alone, but planning wasn't so enjoyable. Comparing it to the last collaborative fan fiction story I wrote (not published yet), planning the plot together with another author was real fun, and brought plenty of good ideas. So I guess after G!MB I realized that planning (for me) goes more smoothly when collaborating.
Edit:

Isn't this already a threaded discussion ? If you mean having one thread per subject (story, graphics), I guess it's alright too.
As for hiding things, I think I'd like to keep the "meat" of the game secret (missions, most stories, endings).

If you split it up into official and secret things, then probably this discussion thread will do nicely. Everything secret can then be done e.g. via pm or e-mail. :)