"Real Lesbian" VN

[hazzard]

While I'm all for people presenting all different types of relationships in a realistic and relateable manner, I am a bit iffy about the suggestion that one's sexuality is apparent in one's character. For some people it is and for some people it isn't. You can't tell someone's sexuality by looking at them, or even seeing how they act. While people of different sexualities may deal with different problems in life, which again depends on the differences in their own lives, I don't think it should be an independant part of it. Is there really any difference between a girl being afraid to come out to her parents and a girl afraid to tell her parents that she is in a relationship with a guy?

Again, I'm all for seeing relationships that actually acknowledge what's going on in them, what I would be very wary of defining characters by who they love. It doesn't work that way in real life, with the exception when people CHOOSE to define themselves by their sexuality or when other people do it for them (and that could be a very interesting characteristic in and of itself, just not one suited for everybody. It can also be dangerous when a society decides who you are for you).

I agree completely. There's no such thing as "gaydar" and you can't tell what someone will be attracted to just by looking at them. That said, a distinct lgbt culture has arisen over time. Slang terms that were (and still sometimes are) more like code used to refer to gay experiences and relationships in public without risk of being judged by anyone who might overhear. People who do fit the stereotypes exist as well. They just tend to stand out more, which is why some people are shocked to hear that an otherwise "normal" guy or gal bats for the other team.

What I'm trying to say is, you can never just know someone's orientation by looking, but there are some people for whom it's a larger part of their lives than "swap out the men (or women) for women (or men) and it's exactly the same."

Consider the US military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. There were a lot of gay people who didn't want it repealed. Not because they didn't want it repealed, but because they opposed the wars in the Middle East and saw "pretending to be gay" as a way to get out of fighting in an unjust war. When DADT was repealed, a lot of people who were in the military came out, which was great, but a lot of people who were gay came in droves to join the military. Surely they hadn't all been seriously thinking "I wish I could be in the military." Some of them had to have joined just because they finally could. And some of those people died because they joined.

I'm not chiming in on these issues personally because I don't want to start a fight, but my point is, lgbt issues are more complex than just "if you support gay people you support a and b and oppose y and z."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_culture <~ more on the kind of stuff I'm trying to get at

[Carrogath]

It's funny that this came up, because I've been working on a yuri VN for the past few months, myself...

What I'm trying to say is, you can never just know someone's orientation by looking, but there are some people for whom it's a larger part of their lives than "swap out the men (or women) for women (or men) and it's exactly the same."

You might be able to hide your orientation sometimes, but it's still going to be a part of you, of course. I mean, being gay is hard (and harder depending on where you live and who you live with), let's face it; there are problems that gay people have that straight people will never encounter. You can focus on the social problems, or you can focus on the romance, but either way you're going to have to deal with the problems that gay people, specifically, have to face just living their everyday lives.

I think what Auro was saying is that the fact that the character is a lesbian shouldn't overshadow everything else about her. She's a lesbian, fine, but she might also want to be a racecar driver, or a clothing designer, or a housewife, or God-knows-what. The story should be about her 1) finding true love as well as 2) aspiring to her dreams and 3) being a minority. This girl has a life outside of being gay, and that's what bad LGBTQ stories tend to forget.

[hazzard]

It's funny that this came up, because I've been working on a yuri VN for the past few months, myself...

What I'm trying to say is, you can never just know someone's orientation by looking, but there are some people for whom it's a larger part of their lives than "swap out the men (or women) for women (or men) and it's exactly the same."

You might be able to hide your orientation sometimes, but it's still going to be a part of you, of course. I mean, being gay is hard (and harder depending on where you live and who you live with), let's face it; there are problems that gay people have that straight people will never encounter. You can focus on the social problems, or you can focus on the romance, but either way you're going to have to deal with the problems that gay people, specifically, have to face just living their everyday lives.

I think what Auro was saying is that the fact that the character is a lesbian shouldn't overshadow everything else about her. She's a lesbian, fine, but she might also want to be a racecar driver, or a clothing designer, or a housewife, or God-knows-what. The story should be about her 1) finding true love as well as 2) aspiring to her dreams and 3) being a minority. This girl has a life outside of being gay, and that's what bad LGBTQ stories tend to forget.

I agree completely.

[Auro-Cyanide]

It's funny that this came up, because I've been working on a yuri VN for the past few months, myself...

What I'm trying to say is, you can never just know someone's orientation by looking, but there are some people for whom it's a larger part of their lives than "swap out the men (or women) for women (or men) and it's exactly the same."

You might be able to hide your orientation sometimes, but it's still going to be a part of you, of course. I mean, being gay is hard (and harder depending on where you live and who you live with), let's face it; there are problems that gay people have that straight people will never encounter. You can focus on the social problems, or you can focus on the romance, but either way you're going to have to deal with the problems that gay people, specifically, have to face just living their everyday lives.

I think what Auro was saying is that the fact that the character is a lesbian shouldn't overshadow everything else about her. She's a lesbian, fine, but she might also want to be a racecar driver, or a clothing designer, or a housewife, or God-knows-what. The story should be about her 1) finding true love as well as 2) aspiring to her dreams and 3) being a minority. This girl has a life outside of being gay, and that's what bad LGBTQ stories tend to forget.

Actually, I was more concerned with idea that 'normal' women can't be gay. She mentioned Batwoman for instance. The thing is that a character shouldn't have to act 'gay' (whatever that is). I really do get where they are coming from. They want to see more variation with these types of relationships, that's cool. I don't think they themselves share the views I'm talking about, but some people do. It can be a dangerous line of thought that 'gay people' are inherently different from everyone else, because they are not. They love and hate and fear and rejoice the same way as everyone else. They are specific issues that they have to deal with in life, but so does everyone else. A couple might have to worry about getting accepted in a community. A young single mother might have to worry about the same thing. Character should always come before everything else, because it doesn't matter what job you have, what sexuality you are, what gender you are, what nationality you are, we are all people underneath. It's a mistake to think that groups of people share traits, like certain groups of gay people all act this way and certain groups of black people act that way. There are so many other factors that go into what makes you, you, like where you grew up and who your parents are.

For example, I have two friends, both of whom came out in high school. One had always been a bit of a tom-boy and cut her hair short. As she grew older she became quite involved in the gay community and she was comfortable dressing in more masculine clothes. The other friend was one of the most feminine people I have ever known, who loved to wear dresses and make-up. If people didn't know she was dating a girl, I doubt anyone would suspect she was gay because the doesn't fit into the stereotypes that society has. Their sexuality was apart of them, but I would have to be a fool to think it defined them. They were very distinctive people, not like anyone else. Those are the type of characters I want to see, ones that are unique and fulfilling. They are the best kind, no matter what

[hazzard]

It's funny that this came up, because I've been working on a yuri VN for the past few months, myself...

What I'm trying to say is, you can never just know someone's orientation by looking, but there are some people for whom it's a larger part of their lives than "swap out the men (or women) for women (or men) and it's exactly the same."

You might be able to hide your orientation sometimes, but it's still going to be a part of you, of course. I mean, being gay is hard (and harder depending on where you live and who you live with), let's face it; there are problems that gay people have that straight people will never encounter. You can focus on the social problems, or you can focus on the romance, but either way you're going to have to deal with the problems that gay people, specifically, have to face just living their everyday lives.

I think what Auro was saying is that the fact that the character is a lesbian shouldn't overshadow everything else about her. She's a lesbian, fine, but she might also want to be a racecar driver, or a clothing designer, or a housewife, or God-knows-what. The story should be about her 1) finding true love as well as 2) aspiring to her dreams and 3) being a minority. This girl has a life outside of being gay, and that's what bad LGBTQ stories tend to forget.

Actually, I was more concerned with idea that 'normal' women can't be gay. She mentioned Batwoman for instance. The thing is that a character shouldn't have to act 'gay' (whatever that is). I really do get where they are coming from. They want to see more variation with these types of relationships, that's cool. I don't think they themselves share the views I'm talking about, but some people do. It can be a dangerous line of thought that 'gay people' are inherently different from everyone else, because they are not. They love and hate and fear and rejoice the same way as everyone else. They are specific issues that they have to deal with in life, but so does everyone else. A couple might have to worry about getting accepted in a community. A young single mother might have to worry about the same thing. Character should always come before everything else, because it doesn't matter what job you have, what sexuality you are, what gender you are, what nationality you are, we are all people underneath. It's a mistake to think that groups of people share traits, like certain groups of gay people all act this way and certain groups of black people act that way. There are so many other factors that go into what makes you, you, like where you grew up and who your parents are.

For example, I have two friends, both of whom came out in high school. One had always been a bit of a tom-boy and cut her hair short. As she grew older she became quite involved in the gay community and she was comfortable dressing in more masculine clothes. The other friend was one of the most feminine people I have ever known, who loved to wear dresses and make-up. If people didn't know she was dating a girl, I doubt anyone would suspect she was gay because the doesn't fit into the stereotypes that society has. Their sexuality was apart of them, but I would have to be a fool to think it defined them. They were very distinctive people, not like anyone else. Those are the type of characters I want to see, ones that are unique and fulfilling. They are the best kind, no matter what

I wasn't trying to imply that "normal" people can't be gay. Sorry if I came across that way. Of course I want complicated characters with full lives and interests and such. That's what makes a character and not a caricature.

[Elze]

As far as I know there is no "bara" equivalent for lesbians? Or maybe there is?

Actually, there is yuri/shoujo-ai drawn by women for women, including those that depict fairly realistic situations. You just need to know where to look. There's this autobiographical shoujo-ai manga that I really enjoyed called Honey & Honey by Takeuchi Sachiko. Just google for it since I don't think it's a good idea to link to scanlation sites.

The issue with one's gender preference being perceivable by appearance is an iffy one. There's a reason why people say they have a 'gaydar' or the like after all, but I think it's more than just appearance. It's kind of unexplainable, like hormones maybe.

Appearance wise, I think it's only visually obvious when we're talking about a butch. A passive lesbian won't look or dress in any way that's different from a hetero girl.

[papillon]

And just to jump in before someone catches that, femme doesn't necessarily mean passive. Femmes can top!

Butch/femme dynamic seems quite strong in a lot of the lesbian-fiction-by-lesbians I've read. Not all-pervasive, but still more common than it seems to be in yuri.

[BairaagiVN]

I saw the original posts on OELVNG. I did see you say that you were dropping the action/superhero/whatever-it-was aspect. Personally I kind of liked the original idea, since pure romance/realistic drama stories aren't really my cup of tea, but I'm on board here in saying this looks like a worthwhile endeavor.

Are you planning this to be a kinetic novel, or will it have multiple routes?

[hazzard]

And just to jump in before someone catches that, femme doesn't necessarily mean passive. Femmes can top!

Butch/femme dynamic seems quite strong in a lot of the lesbian-fiction-by-lesbians I've read. Not all-pervasive, but still more common than it seems to be in yuri.

That's true. I'm not sure if the protagonist should be butch or not. Another idea I had that might be cool is to have her living in NY in the spring of 1969, struggling with her sexuality, and she meets someone and possibly winds up living through the Stonewall Riots. Though that's kind of a major historical event so I don't know if that could be done well as opposed to either coming off as silly or documentary-esque.

I saw the original posts on OELVNG. I did see you say that you were dropping the action/superhero/whatever-it-was aspect. Personally I kind of liked the original idea, since pure romance/realistic drama stories aren't really my cup of tea, but I'm on board here in saying this looks like a worthwhile endeavor.

Are you planning this to be a kinetic novel, or will it have multiple routes?

I was thinking multiple routes. I dropped the superhero thing because the comparison to Superman Returns made me wince.

[EroBotan]

I'm confused ... about gayness can be detected by appearance stereotype, where can I find this? and how to detect it?

So far, the yuri manga/anime that I read, the girls' appearance are not different from the girls that you find in bishoujo games/anime featuring hetero couple

Edit: ... i just remember ... are you talking about Haruka (Sailor Moon), Utena (Shoujo Kakumei Utena), and Oscar (Versailles)?

[hazzard]

I'm confused ... about gayness can be detected by appearance stereotype, where can I find this? and how to detect it?

So far, the yuri manga/anime that I read, the girls' appearance are not different from the girls that you find in bishoujo games/anime featuring hetero couple

Edit: ... i just remember ... are you talking about Haruka (Sailor Moon), Utena (Shoujo Kakumei Utena), and Oscar (Versailles)?

I wasn't saying gayness could be detected by stereotypes and appearances. I was just saying that there are a wide variety of people who are gay just like there are a wide variety of straight people, but most of the time it seems like they're very careful not to make any gay characters act unusual because they're worried people will accuse them of stereotyping. But some gay people appear the same as everyone else, and some stand out. Just like straight people.

The stereotype of a "butch" lesbian, for example, is a stereotype because some people think all lesbians are butch. The truth is that some are and some aren't. But you never see any who are butch in comic books, visual novels, etc., and almost never in movies (and if you do see them in movies it's usually a joke based on the stereotypes).

[EroBotan]

I wasn't saying gayness could be detected by stereotypes and appearances. I was just saying that there are a wide variety of people who are gay just like there are a wide variety of straight people, but most of the time it seems like they're very careful not to make any gay characters act unusual because they're worried people will accuse them of stereotyping. But some gay people appear the same as everyone else, and some stand out. Just like straight people.

The stereotype of a "butch" lesbian, for example, is a stereotype because some people think all lesbians are butch. The truth is that some are and some aren't. But you never see any who are butch in comic books, visual novels, etc., and almost never in movies (and if you do see them in movies it's usually a joke based on the stereotypes).

ooh ... I only know anime/manga and few asian movies lol and there is no such stereotype here since they're lots of variety (girly girl x tomboy, girly girl x bifauxnen, shy girl x aggresive girl, shy butch x aggresive girly girl, tsundere x tsundere).

Dunno about visual novel, never find any yuri visual novel so far .. at best it's subtext like in princess maker IV (there is no butch in princess maker IV i think)

oh, and people say this one is good Yes or No

[Elze]

I'd personally prefer a modern setting for the VN so we can actually connect with it. Setting it dated in a difficult era might come across as making this an informative game, rather than one that focuses on human relationships.

I actually find it strange that anybody, at all, will think that all lesbians are butches. Then who are they supposed to date? O.o I know there's PB (pure butch; not sure if this is a local-exclusive term, but over here it means ButchXButch), but it's veryyy rare and I've never met any PB couples. One butch that I knew of changed into a girly girl after she fell for her friend (who's a butch).

As for who the protagonist is, it depends on your target audience. If you're targeting the female audience (both hetero and queer), chances would be that it'll be more popular if you get to play as a femme chasing after a butch.

[Astrid]

I'm sure there are people who like to think they're doing this when they make their game, but it ends up something of a cliché. I would like to see more LGBT themes done right.