The problem is not so much that the artist gave up on me, as that we agreed that she couldn't do the backgrounds, and the coloring, and multiple poses, and multiple versions of shading, and handle 20 characters for free in any reasonable amount of time. Even if I went to a Labor Day release, that would be just too much. And my trying to do some of that work was taking the good stuff she was doing, and making a mess of it.
So, if y'all think there's someone who is actually up to that task, please point them my way. In the mean time I'm not (yet) giving up on the project. I'm going to keep working on the script while I try to find some other options. But if a couple more weeks go by and there isn't an answer (either an artist or a package I can produce art with), then I'm going to have to give this one up and go back to the sorority idea that at least I know I can actually finish.
FWIW,
Ewan
Camp Handiba Development Thread
Hmm, please clarify what's delegated, I thought she was just responsible for the character sketches in various poses. Also, we seemed to agree a while back that she should finalize and ink the lines for you.EwanG wrote:backgrounds, and the coloring, and multiple poses, and multiple versions of shading, and handle 20 characters
And judging from the results of Senior Year, you're a pretty decent colorist. And using unique modified photos for BGs.
I don't understand where's the weakest link or bottleneck in this process.
EDIT: (What I'm thinking...here's the guy who made a fully-voiced game featuring five girls in two months, and he's expressing doubts -- I was inspired by his production process even)[/i]
Last edited by DaFool on Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EwanG
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OK, let me see if I can try to make this any clearer. Yes, for Senior Year I was able to do all the character art, coloring, and shading on my own. But that was in no small part because I was using backgrounds that were already sized/proportioned to be used for a game, and where the sunlight was almost always left to right, with some limited exceptions. I also had characters that were all standing up, and that had either one or two poses where I could just alter the facial features to get the full scale of expressions.
For Camp Handiba, this is so much NOT the case. Am going from four girls to 20 characters, some of which spend some of their time in wheelchairs or using crutches. I was also trying to use photo backgrounds which means the light is coming from many different angles. And, per some of the criticisms I received on Senior Year, I also wanted multiple poses - ideally that would reflect a bit about the character of the person. But also because since some of the characters get transformed, having some unique features becomes important to maintaining a sense that this really is the same person underneath.
So, my artist originally agreed to do line art for all the characters, and when it became obvious I couldn't trace worth a darn, picked up the inking as well. That in itself is a major task if you consider that for each character you are now looking at some fifteen individual drawings - and for the handicapped kids you're looking at close to 30. Now consider the different environments I'm using, and that I have to shade each of those drawings differently considering where the light is coming from. Then add that not all the photos are proportioned the same, and so the characters or the photos have to be manipulated to fit each other.
If I drop the photo backgrounds and go with artist created ones where we have more control over lighting and sizing, then there's still ALL those backgrounds. Because I have multiple folks talking, and you can play from one of three POVs, almost every room requires four walls/backgrounds. Even if you just show one room for each cabin, and have folks sharing cabins, that's six cabins, plus the lodge bedroom for our camp supervior, times four. IOW, 28 backgrounds just for a rudimentary indoor shoot. Not to mention their outdoor backgrounds. Then there's the mess hall, the crafts building, the lodge itself, the campfire site, the general store...
So it comes down to a problem that I'm having trouble seeing any way to develop that much artwork at a high enough quality that I would feel proud rather than embarrassed to release the final product. That's why I did the initial post this morning - because I'm hoping that folks either have ideas I've overlooked for doing all this, or that folks might know an artist or two who could produce that much stuff in a period of a few months.
Otherwise, it appears I've developed a story that really does require a paid team, and I know approximately what that budget would be, and it's a number high enough that I can't cover it at this time. In which case I don't see the point in continuing to work on it if I'm never going to actually be able to deliver it. Which is really tearing at me internally since I really would like to see this released.
OK, I'm heading back to pounding my head against a hard surface while hoping y'all can figure something out that I've missed.
Thanks again,
Ewan
For Camp Handiba, this is so much NOT the case. Am going from four girls to 20 characters, some of which spend some of their time in wheelchairs or using crutches. I was also trying to use photo backgrounds which means the light is coming from many different angles. And, per some of the criticisms I received on Senior Year, I also wanted multiple poses - ideally that would reflect a bit about the character of the person. But also because since some of the characters get transformed, having some unique features becomes important to maintaining a sense that this really is the same person underneath.
So, my artist originally agreed to do line art for all the characters, and when it became obvious I couldn't trace worth a darn, picked up the inking as well. That in itself is a major task if you consider that for each character you are now looking at some fifteen individual drawings - and for the handicapped kids you're looking at close to 30. Now consider the different environments I'm using, and that I have to shade each of those drawings differently considering where the light is coming from. Then add that not all the photos are proportioned the same, and so the characters or the photos have to be manipulated to fit each other.
If I drop the photo backgrounds and go with artist created ones where we have more control over lighting and sizing, then there's still ALL those backgrounds. Because I have multiple folks talking, and you can play from one of three POVs, almost every room requires four walls/backgrounds. Even if you just show one room for each cabin, and have folks sharing cabins, that's six cabins, plus the lodge bedroom for our camp supervior, times four. IOW, 28 backgrounds just for a rudimentary indoor shoot. Not to mention their outdoor backgrounds. Then there's the mess hall, the crafts building, the lodge itself, the campfire site, the general store...
So it comes down to a problem that I'm having trouble seeing any way to develop that much artwork at a high enough quality that I would feel proud rather than embarrassed to release the final product. That's why I did the initial post this morning - because I'm hoping that folks either have ideas I've overlooked for doing all this, or that folks might know an artist or two who could produce that much stuff in a period of a few months.
Otherwise, it appears I've developed a story that really does require a paid team, and I know approximately what that budget would be, and it's a number high enough that I can't cover it at this time. In which case I don't see the point in continuing to work on it if I'm never going to actually be able to deliver it. Which is really tearing at me internally since I really would like to see this released.
OK, I'm heading back to pounding my head against a hard surface while hoping y'all can figure something out that I've missed.
Thanks again,
Ewan
If it's really impossible as it is... try to take down some features?
I mean... you went from a 4 charas cast to 20... That in itself is almost too much. But above it, you decide to have multiple pose... and to have realistic lighting depending on the backgrounds... wow @_@... If you're still a two people team, it's on the verge of folly ô_o.
While you can't really take out characters, maybe you could keep it down to one pose per character... or two for *some* of them... those who really need it. You could also use Utsukushii Planet's trick of showing faces/expressions instead of whole full body poses.
Same thing with lightning : using photos would help since you won't have to draw backgrounds. Now don't cancel this advantage by trying to make complex lighting ^^;... Dunno about others but I usually don't mind about lighting. It's nice when it fits but it's usually the least of my concerns ^^;.
I mean... you went from a 4 charas cast to 20... That in itself is almost too much. But above it, you decide to have multiple pose... and to have realistic lighting depending on the backgrounds... wow @_@... If you're still a two people team, it's on the verge of folly ô_o.
While you can't really take out characters, maybe you could keep it down to one pose per character... or two for *some* of them... those who really need it. You could also use Utsukushii Planet's trick of showing faces/expressions instead of whole full body poses.
Same thing with lightning : using photos would help since you won't have to draw backgrounds. Now don't cancel this advantage by trying to make complex lighting ^^;... Dunno about others but I usually don't mind about lighting. It's nice when it fits but it's usually the least of my concerns ^^;.
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EwanG
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And then have the characters have to keep pointing out which ones are in wheelchairs or using other aides... Yes, I gave that some thought. But I don't think I could make it work for the story as it's currently written. I'm undecided as to whether rewriting the story to add more reminders of who has what problem to allow this type of character art "cheat" would be ok.monele wrote:You could also use Utsukushii Planet's trick of showing faces/expressions instead of whole full body poses.
As for the shading, I think you normally don't notice it because you don't see one side of a character shaded while the shadows in the room or outdoors aren't going the other way. IOW, you can have a decent degree of movement where it isn't noticeable, but then you get to a point where you can tell. Believe me, with some of the "shots" it got obvious fast.
Yes, I know I'm bordering on folly. I'm just trying to figure out if I really was kidding myself to think this was doable, or if I just didn't think it through enough to see how I would have to change things to make it work.
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PrettySammy09
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I've never released a game, I still have problems with programming, and I'm a big fat thumb-sucking n00b, but I have to something to say!!! (raises her fist in determination and defiance)
I realize that this must be VERY frustrating. You have so much to do and not enough time to do it in. You feel like your help is lacking and your project is too ambitious. I have a few suggestions.
1. I agree with Monele. Maybe you should try to eliminate a few characters. 20 is HUGE. So much work and so much to worry about. I'm doing the graphics for my first game, and I have only finished three characters in about two weeks. That's not even counting backgrounds and stuff.
2. Try posting around for a bit of extra help with inking or coloring. I will be willing to volunteer to help you ink. I am actually not half-bad at it.
This will take pressure off your artist. I will also help ink backgrounds if you need.
3. If this project is as ambitious as it seems to be, maybe a Labor Day release is a little ambitious? Halloween? Thanksgiving? Christmas? Canada Day? Feast of Our Lady of Laser Beams?
But overall, I think that you need to ask yourself the all important question:
Is this still fun?
I know it sounds dumb and cheesy, and it most likely is, but, all I ask of you is to look deep inside yourself and say, "Is it worth it? Am I still having fun with Camp Handiba, or is it just a pain in the butt?"
This is your time and your hair that you're pulling out of your head. If you would have more fun with another project, shelf this for another day. People shall be dissappointed, but they'll be elated when you come out with your next project, so no worries.
I realize that this must be VERY frustrating. You have so much to do and not enough time to do it in. You feel like your help is lacking and your project is too ambitious. I have a few suggestions.
1. I agree with Monele. Maybe you should try to eliminate a few characters. 20 is HUGE. So much work and so much to worry about. I'm doing the graphics for my first game, and I have only finished three characters in about two weeks. That's not even counting backgrounds and stuff.
2. Try posting around for a bit of extra help with inking or coloring. I will be willing to volunteer to help you ink. I am actually not half-bad at it.
This will take pressure off your artist. I will also help ink backgrounds if you need.3. If this project is as ambitious as it seems to be, maybe a Labor Day release is a little ambitious? Halloween? Thanksgiving? Christmas? Canada Day? Feast of Our Lady of Laser Beams?
But overall, I think that you need to ask yourself the all important question:
Is this still fun?
I know it sounds dumb and cheesy, and it most likely is, but, all I ask of you is to look deep inside yourself and say, "Is it worth it? Am I still having fun with Camp Handiba, or is it just a pain in the butt?"
This is your time and your hair that you're pulling out of your head. If you would have more fun with another project, shelf this for another day. People shall be dissappointed, but they'll be elated when you come out with your next project, so no worries.
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Nafai
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My two centavos:
I like VNs as much as the next guy, really I do, and I do understand how important art can be, and how much it adds to the production.
That being said its the 'novel' part that I'm usually concerned with - that and the element of control you have as a 'player' rather than a reader.
You've been pretty consistent in your belief in the story you want to tell, and from experience that usually comes from the fact that your story has something to say - and if that's the case it will keep gnawing at your brain, at your heart, until you let it.
Let your story speak for itself.
Don't be too demanding of the art. The shading, perspectives... They would be nice, but I don't think their absence will detract from the story.
Tell the story.
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OK, that's one centavo.
Here' the other:
Well, this is a method I'm going to be trying in my game, and I'm not sure if I can explain it well enough but, if you're concerned with issues of 'realism' in the art (shading, perspective) and at the same time want something cinematic, then one thing you can do is, for lack of a better term, 'stylize' it.
How do I put this - well, for my project, I'm going to try for a bit of a comic book style in certain cases. That means using BGs/CGs that act as panels. Or, perhaps, doing a full character shot with the background seen only letterbox style (a narrow band between thick black spaces).
The result is that:
(a) you limit what you show, and hence what you need to draw. Instead of showing, say, a full body shot of a femme fatale smoking her cigarette, I show one panel of her lips in profile, and another of her smoking cigarette. Much easier to draw those than a full body; and
(b) From the above, you can see that certain 'realist' elements either become non-issues, or, become more doable because you can limit your art in a particular scene to the character, and not invest too heavily in the backgrounds.
Well, I'm not sure I really explained it well - I haven't had a chance to do a mock up yet - but its one way out of your dilema.
I like VNs as much as the next guy, really I do, and I do understand how important art can be, and how much it adds to the production.
That being said its the 'novel' part that I'm usually concerned with - that and the element of control you have as a 'player' rather than a reader.
You've been pretty consistent in your belief in the story you want to tell, and from experience that usually comes from the fact that your story has something to say - and if that's the case it will keep gnawing at your brain, at your heart, until you let it.
Let your story speak for itself.
Don't be too demanding of the art. The shading, perspectives... They would be nice, but I don't think their absence will detract from the story.
Tell the story.
---
OK, that's one centavo.
Here' the other:
Well, this is a method I'm going to be trying in my game, and I'm not sure if I can explain it well enough but, if you're concerned with issues of 'realism' in the art (shading, perspective) and at the same time want something cinematic, then one thing you can do is, for lack of a better term, 'stylize' it.
How do I put this - well, for my project, I'm going to try for a bit of a comic book style in certain cases. That means using BGs/CGs that act as panels. Or, perhaps, doing a full character shot with the background seen only letterbox style (a narrow band between thick black spaces).
The result is that:
(a) you limit what you show, and hence what you need to draw. Instead of showing, say, a full body shot of a femme fatale smoking her cigarette, I show one panel of her lips in profile, and another of her smoking cigarette. Much easier to draw those than a full body; and
(b) From the above, you can see that certain 'realist' elements either become non-issues, or, become more doable because you can limit your art in a particular scene to the character, and not invest too heavily in the backgrounds.
Well, I'm not sure I really explained it well - I haven't had a chance to do a mock up yet - but its one way out of your dilema.
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Keitsu Han'ei
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*still on panic mode on finding accomodation* i'm gonna be honest with you, so i'll give you a nice tomato to sock me to make you feel better later.
i have played various of ren'ai games ON CD and BOUGHT.
so... what you're aiming for is probably a high end ren'ai game where there's 50+ characters, 10+ backgrounds with 2 lightings (day/night) with mumbojumbo loads of scripting. with drop-dead gorgeous images and costs big bucks.
if you don't have the money to create this project... you're in one hell of a 'screw-up'. especially if this game is going to fit one cd... you might want to aim for dvd instead.
as many had suggested, you must drop some characters...not one, not two... not some... but a LOAD of them.
even the cheap (porn) ren-ai does not have that many characters and poses. mostly will just reuse reuse until you're sick of it and side characters has only one, two appearances with one pose. and the backgrounds are self-made too.
now, THIS kind of project you should be aiming for. it isn't too tough on you and your artist (especially having the two of you only) and it'll give alot of potential for completing the entire thing.
think about it... is it worth it to place that many characters and mmany poses for EVERY one of them? especially if you have a deadline.
the job i took up for free, i had to give him a little notice on how much time it'll eat him on scripting itself... not counting the entire file. the more images, the more scripting, the more space it consumes. regardless how tiny you saved them, but it'll disappoint many of us who like to see semi-excellent quality.
sleep on this thought
*hands a tomato and runs off*
i have played various of ren'ai games ON CD and BOUGHT.
so... what you're aiming for is probably a high end ren'ai game where there's 50+ characters, 10+ backgrounds with 2 lightings (day/night) with mumbojumbo loads of scripting. with drop-dead gorgeous images and costs big bucks.
if you don't have the money to create this project... you're in one hell of a 'screw-up'. especially if this game is going to fit one cd... you might want to aim for dvd instead.
as many had suggested, you must drop some characters...not one, not two... not some... but a LOAD of them.
even the cheap (porn) ren-ai does not have that many characters and poses. mostly will just reuse reuse until you're sick of it and side characters has only one, two appearances with one pose. and the backgrounds are self-made too.
now, THIS kind of project you should be aiming for. it isn't too tough on you and your artist (especially having the two of you only) and it'll give alot of potential for completing the entire thing.
think about it... is it worth it to place that many characters and mmany poses for EVERY one of them? especially if you have a deadline.
the job i took up for free, i had to give him a little notice on how much time it'll eat him on scripting itself... not counting the entire file. the more images, the more scripting, the more space it consumes. regardless how tiny you saved them, but it'll disappoint many of us who like to see semi-excellent quality.
sleep on this thought
*hands a tomato and runs off*
DA Page me anytime for job offers *_*
Maybe you can post for help requesting the assistance of a compositor or additional colorist.
Nafai's idea of comic-style compositing is good. However for a non-manga artist it may also be a challenge determining what panel layout will actually fit a certain scene, since certain visual cues leave a longer lasting effect than others...whereas in VNs you'd have to combine that with the amount of text in a paragraph or pauses.
Nafai's idea of comic-style compositing is good. However for a non-manga artist it may also be a challenge determining what panel layout will actually fit a certain scene, since certain visual cues leave a longer lasting effect than others...whereas in VNs you'd have to combine that with the amount of text in a paragraph or pauses.
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mugenjohncel
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While I may not be able to help you with character illustrations I could provide you with a library full of trees, plants, and shrubs and textures all neatly cropped (Transparent Background) all in PSD format which you could use in your Backgrounds on your game (The way I see it, you'll definitelly gonna need trees... a lot of trees).
This should help you eliminate a huge chunk of work needed for you backgrounds... so you could concentrate on the characters
And please don't give up... the real driving force behind any Visual Novel is the story, not the artwork
Try Tsukihime... the art is sub-standard compared to other VN's out at that time and yet it surpassed all of them because of the immersive story it contains.
This should help you eliminate a huge chunk of work needed for you backgrounds... so you could concentrate on the characters
And please don't give up... the real driving force behind any Visual Novel is the story, not the artwork
Try Tsukihime... the art is sub-standard compared to other VN's out at that time and yet it surpassed all of them because of the immersive story it contains.
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EwanG
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OK, I think enough ideas have been generated that there should be SOME way out of this, so I feel more encouraged that there is a way of making this happen.
A poster or two earlier in the thread mentioned cutting down on the number of characters. Unfortunately, that really isn't much of an option. I didn't decided I wanted 20 characters, I just started plotting out the story, and ended up needing 20 characters.
That might make more sense if you consider that the story is told from three different POVs. You can choose from the first two, and the third one is unlocked once you've done certain things in the other two. IOW, you will spend some time as each of the three main characters. Since each of them interacts with their own group, and those groups overlap, you can see where some of the complexity comes in. In fact, one of the main story complexities has been making sure that while you are in one POVs place, if you see one of the other two they are in parts or versions of their paths that would make sense based on where you currently are.
Loath as I am to release a demo based on previous advice, I may have to do a small bit of one POV's path as a technology preview to see how folks feel about how it is all hanging together. It will depend on how "strange" I have to get with the artwork
Thanks again for all the suggestions and support,
Ewan
A poster or two earlier in the thread mentioned cutting down on the number of characters. Unfortunately, that really isn't much of an option. I didn't decided I wanted 20 characters, I just started plotting out the story, and ended up needing 20 characters.
That might make more sense if you consider that the story is told from three different POVs. You can choose from the first two, and the third one is unlocked once you've done certain things in the other two. IOW, you will spend some time as each of the three main characters. Since each of them interacts with their own group, and those groups overlap, you can see where some of the complexity comes in. In fact, one of the main story complexities has been making sure that while you are in one POVs place, if you see one of the other two they are in parts or versions of their paths that would make sense based on where you currently are.
Loath as I am to release a demo based on previous advice, I may have to do a small bit of one POV's path as a technology preview to see how folks feel about how it is all hanging together. It will depend on how "strange" I have to get with the artwork
Thanks again for all the suggestions and support,
Ewan
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EwanG
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It would be possible, but not desirable in my opinion, to release the first two POVs as one story, and then release the third POV that explains what's really going on as a sequel. Still, I'll keep that in mind as a possibility.monele wrote:Another question : does the story make sense if you keep only one POV? The idea might be to make this in three steps, releasing one POV at a time.
Thanks,
Ewan
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EwanG
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Just to make sure that everyone knows what I'm up to...
I am now experimenting with a couple different ways of setting up the characters and backgrounds that I hope to be able to show y'all sometime next week. Additionally, I am still hard at work on script. I think either of the new paths will let me hit a Memorial Weekend kickoff, but it's still early and I could find something that will get in the way
Thanks again for the ideas and support,
Ewan
I am now experimenting with a couple different ways of setting up the characters and backgrounds that I hope to be able to show y'all sometime next week. Additionally, I am still hard at work on script. I think either of the new paths will let me hit a Memorial Weekend kickoff, but it's still early and I could find something that will get in the way
Thanks again for the ideas and support,
Ewan
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