Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

Ideas and games that are not yet publicly in production. This forum also contains the pre-2012 archives of the Works in Progress forum.
Message
Author
User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama|Romance] + Demo

#16 Post by Ophelia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:04 am

Huh, guess it has been a while since the last update. So, uhm, I'm currently sitting at about 35.000 words, but after writing that much I suddenly realized what a big mistake I actually made. :/
The whole game is pretty much a break of the holy "show, don't tell" rule and I only really noticed that after having written that much... then I lost quite a bit of steam because I didn't know what to do or where to go from now, so, yeah, haven't done much the last week. And classes are starting again.
I'm still gonna finish it, but I'm not going to rewrite anything. Because I already wrote that "much" and even if I went back and rewrote scenes (which I don't even know how I would something like that, since the whole game is build up on NOT showing :/ ), I would probably lose any motivation and would just end up not finishing it, which would be quite a shame!
So I'm going to finish as it is and just put that down as a lesson for myself and try to do better next time.

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama|Romance] + Demo

#17 Post by Ophelia » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:12 am

Hey, this isn't abandoned!

So, current progress:
Statistics:

The game contains 3,364 dialogue blocks, containing 32,250 words and 169,057
characters, for an average of 9.6 words and 50 characters per block.
Yep, I put everything I've written into Ren'Py, because of a post I saw on this board that said I should put my writing into the actual engine, which will increase the chance of creating a finished product. That motivated me to dump my 39k written words in there and get over my fear of all the horrible coding!
So currently I'm fully busy fixing all the endless problems with my scripts. It seems to take.... an eternity. But when I'm finished I'll release another demo, which will have most of what I've written. (I finished the "common" part and I've written a few thousand words for one route, so I'll simply omit the unfinished route). That demo will be extremely unpolished and I won't proofread it or cut or change things or anything yet.
And then I guess this will belong in the actual WiP section?

Also, it seems like this game is going to be very, VERY light on the romance. I only have one tiny, tiny scene that you could call remotely romantic yet, so... I should probably change the title as well.

So, yeah!

User avatar
Chasing Summer
Regular
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:12 pm
Projects: unannounced project
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama|Romance] + Demo

#18 Post by Chasing Summer » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:33 pm

Ophelia wrote:
Here is a preview:
Image
His new name is now Carlos.
You scared me for a second. XD

I completely understand how you don’t want to make the VN too advanced or long when it’s your first one.
new account: sonnenblumen

try10
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] + Demo

#19 Post by try10 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:14 pm

I really want to hear more about the progress. The demo was interesting and I hope this project won't ever be abandoned. :)

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] + Demo

#20 Post by Ophelia » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:09 am

Oh, no, it won't!

I will have another, longer demo up soon, but I'm just not motivated to proofread everything right now and test is thoroughly. I will do soon, though. Just taking a break after exams. :D

That's the current lint:
Statistics:

The game contains 3,648 dialogue blocks, containing 33,980 words and 178,118
characters, for an average of 9.3 words and 49 characters per block.

The game contains 42 menus, 182 images, and 12 screens.
I put everything I wrote in the script and will probably just release what I have for now before I continue working on it. The common part is done, one route is half/mostly done and there are already 5 early endings.


And thanks for taking interest!

try10
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] + Demo

#21 Post by try10 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:21 am

OHH, I'm so glad you are still working on it :D cause there were lots of awesome projects that were abandoned here. I can't wait for the finished game. I wish you the best of luck! :)

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#22 Post by Ophelia » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:09 pm

New Demo!

Finally!

Image

The demo contains about 38k words, 5 early endings, the complete common route and about half of Takumi's route.

I've been working on this demo for a while now and finally decided it was time that I release it. There's no way I can make it perfect, anyway.

It should work properly, but if you find any bugs or other things wrong with it, please tell me!

Also, I've prepared a few questions. :D

It's a pretty long list, but you don't have to answer all of them, of course! They are just suggestion and I would be very happy for any kind of feedback!


General:

- If you've played the demo - no matter how long - at which point did you stop? Was there something you didn't like about it, was something boring you?
- Did you finish the demo or would you finish the demo? Why and why not?
- How did you like the 3rd person narration?
- Were there enough choices? Did you feel the choices you made were important enough? Do you think they should be more or less choices?
- Did you reach any of the early endings? Was it difficult to get them?*
- Were there any unnecessary scenes?

Characters:

- How did you like the heroine? Could you relate to her? Did you find her obnoxious?
- Did you find her reactions to situations emotional enough? Or did you think there wasn't enough inner narration coming from her?
- Which of the male characters is your favourite? Why don't you like at all?
- Would you perceive any romantic moments between the heroine and the uncle as gross and or inappropriate?
- What about his younger brother? If you read the only romantic moment, did you like it? Was it unnecessary, or do you even want more?
- Would you like to strangle Sunwoo?
- Do you feel like you can trust any of the characters?
- Would you like to see more romance, or do you think it would go without?

Music:

- How was the music?
- Did it fit the situation?
- Were the transitions between tracks alright?

Story:

- What are your thoughts about the story?
- Is it "mysterious" enough? Are you curious to learn the "truth"?
- Is it entertaining enough, or did you find the ratio of slice of life to interesting moments too high?
- Do you have any speculations about the motives of the characters?
- Were there any plotholes or confusing moments?


(The music especially gave me a headache, literally. I never play with ingame music turned on, as it usually gives me a headache, so finding and including music in the game was probably the most difficult task!)

*For two of the difficult endings:
Take the cookies, try to have more points with Kyungso, don't look for Sunwoo, but ask him out.

User avatar
.usa
Regular
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:39 pm
Projects: Forget [not] that flower (hiatus)
Tumblr: bijuudama
Deviantart: meiayasaki
Skype: sore-wa-chigau-yo
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#23 Post by .usa » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:12 pm

Just finished playing the demo ~

- If you've played the demo - no matter how long - at which point did you stop? Was there something you didn't like about it, was something boring you?
I didn't stopped playing it until I finished, it was really good! Hmm, there was certainly a thing I didn't liked. The Yira sprite, not the sprite itself, but the dissapearing of it everytime the character who's speaking changes, even if I got used to it at the end, I found it annoying.
- Did you finish the demo or would you finish the demo? Why and why not?
I did finished the demo, two times actually! One of them I got
Chali's bad ending, God, she killed Yira didn't she?! That's why I don't like this character anymore, it's creepy!
. The other one I guess was the ending of the demo. I continued to play it because it was funny and interesting, so I couldn't stop until I finished!
- How did you like the 3rd person narration?
Hmm... Not sure how to answer this question (language issues I guess?), but I didn't liked nor hated it, it felt normal.
- Were there enough choices? Did you feel the choices you made were important enough? Do you think they should be more or less choices?
I think there were enough! Hmm, not sure if important, but I really liked to do whatever I wanted to do instead of just clicking the screen over and over thinking "What?! Don't do it!" (or something like that, I dunno if I explained myself xD).
- Did you reach any of the early endings? Was it difficult to get them?*
If by early endings you mean
Chali's creepy as hell ending
then yes. But only that one, now that I know there's more than one I'm gonna look for them!
- Were there any unnecessary scenes?
I don't think so.

Characters:

- How did you like the heroine? Could you relate to her? Did you find her obnoxious?
God, the heroine was amazing! She wasn't like those otome heroine's (even if this isn't an otome, they're mostly like that) who are all really dumb, she was so... Natural maybe is the word, if it isn't, I loved her, that's all.
- Did you find her reactions to situations emotional enough? Or did you think there wasn't enough inner narration coming from her?
As I said above, she was pretty natural! So yes, her reactions are perfectly enough.
- Which of the male characters is your favourite? Why don't you like at all?
My fave's Sunwoo! He's just my type of guy -and we could be perfectly a great couple if he's actually 15 like me-.
- Would you perceive any romantic moments between the heroine and the uncle as gross and or inappropriate?
Maybe not gross, but definitely inappropiate.
- What about his younger brother? If you read the only romantic moment, did you like it? Was it unnecessary, or do you even want more?
I'm not sure what was the romantic moment,
maybe the one when she's all scared because of the old shrine and all? Gosh, I'm ashamed that I can't tell what it was
. Hmm... I like the "pervert old and fake brother" thing that was going on, so I don't think any serious romantic moments are necessary.
- Would you like to strangle Sunwoo?
Yes, please. He's annoying and kind of cute at the same time, long story short, a cold guy but when you get to know him he's sweet as sugar
I think I'm fantasizing too much about it, maybe he's just a little brat, or maybe not, I'll never know it.
.
- Do you feel like you can trust any of the characters?
I think Takumi's the most trustful right now.
If Sunwoo wasn't made that very horrible and disgusting joke about Yira's parents I would trust him
.
- Would you like to see more romance, or do you think it would go without?
I would certainly like to see more, but the story can perfectly go without it.

Music:

- How was the music?
Annoying at sometimes... It's me, not the music, really.
- Did it fit the situation?
Yupp.
- Were the transitions between tracks alright?
I didn't even noticed it so it was gloriously done.

Story:

- What are your thoughts about the story?
Interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting
Yira and I are exactly the same at this xD
.
- Is it "mysterious" enough? Are you curious to learn the "truth"?
Kill me if I am not. Seriously, who couldn't?
- Is it entertaining enough, or did you find the ratio of slice of life to interesting moments too high?
I got my hands on my mouth trying to not laught so loudly on the funny moments
she had to crap
, and my face turned to be like a painting in the interesting moments (painting = indescriptible).
- Do you have any speculations about the motives of the characters?
Not really, well, just one speculation about Kyungso:
he wants to "revive" his grandmother by 'adopting' Yira, who is exactly like her, and don't want her to go somewhere without his knowledge because of not wanting to lose her (I mean, like loosing his grandma again, dunno if you get what I'm trying to say). But at the other hand maybe he doesn't want her to know about the secrets of the inn, but that will be awkward because then, why he want her there at the inn in the first place? Man, that's so frustrating and interesting at the same time!
.
- Were there any plotholes or confusing moments?
I don't think so.

~~

Really, REALLY looking forward to the complete game.

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#24 Post by Ophelia » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:25 pm

Wow! Thank you so much for playing the demo and answering all my stupid questions! :D

About the sprite, yes, I actually wanted to make the side image permanent, but somehow that didn't really work out so far. Maybe I can get it to work later.

About Chali's ending:
It's only a bad ending! She did kill her, yes, but that's not really the "reality". Just a.. what if if she was crazy. :D
Yes, there are 4 more! There 2 endings if you decide to trust neither and 2 more if you
Ask Sunwoo to the festival and get rejected (yes, that's possible).
I'm really glad that you liked her!

I have to admit, I really, really like him too! I actually didn't want to include him, but then decided to do so for plotreasons and I'm happy I did. :D

Nope, the romantic moment happens when you go with him to the festival.

About Sunwoo:
Did you get the scenes with him at the end of Takumi's route?

Haha! Good speculations. I have to remember that.

User avatar
.usa
Regular
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:39 pm
Projects: Forget [not] that flower (hiatus)
Tumblr: bijuudama
Deviantart: meiayasaki
Skype: sore-wa-chigau-yo
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#25 Post by .usa » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:29 am

Ophelia wrote:Wow! Thank you so much for playing the demo and answering all my stupid questions! :D

About the sprite, yes, I actually wanted to make the side image permanent, but somehow that didn't really work out so far. Maybe I can get it to work later.

About Chali's ending:
It's only a bad ending! She did kill her, yes, but that's not really the "reality". Just a.. what if if she was crazy. :D
Yes, there are 4 more! There 2 endings if you decide to trust neither and 2 more if you
Ask Sunwoo to the festival and get rejected (yes, that's possible).
I'm really glad that you liked her!

I have to admit, I really, really like him too! I actually didn't want to include him, but then decided to do so for plotreasons and I'm happy I did. :D

Nope, the romantic moment happens when you go with him to the festival.

About Sunwoo:
Did you get the scenes with him at the end of Takumi's route?

Haha! Good speculations. I have to remember that.
Oh, that's a bad thing then, I hope you can fix it later ^-^.

I re-played it again this morning to get all the possible endings and I think I did got almost all, but it seems I'm missing one?
I looked the screens and such on the game folder, and there's a screen of a "game over", different than the one where Chali kills Yira, but it seems I couldn't get it? I think I tried all the possible options, but it's not appearing.
Well, that ending made me hate Chali already xD, and also
when you met her at the festival
, she feels so annoying and creepy! I think she's gonna be
the creepy girl who killed Yira in that creepy ending
in my mind for the rest of my life xD.

I think I got all of them, because I trusted neither and each of them, I think it was when I trusted Takumi when I got
the most amazing ending, covering most of the mystery, now my thoughts on the story really changed, I don't know what to expect anymore! (of course a good thing).
Hmm... I think I missed those scenes because I don't really remember getting them (and I just finished playing, my memory surely's bad orz).

Bless you for including him, by the way, I saw him
with horns, like Kyungso
in the game folder, does this appear on the game?
I love spoilers, trust me when I say that, that's why I looked on the game folder in the first place xD.

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#26 Post by Ophelia » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:59 am

.usa wrote:
Oh, that's a bad thing then, I hope you can fix it later ^-^.

I re-played it again this morning to get all the possible endings and I think I did got almost all, but it seems I'm missing one?
I looked the screens and such on the game folder, and there's a screen of a "game over", different than the one where Chali kills Yira, but it seems I couldn't get it? I think I tried all the possible options, but it's not appearing.
There are two game over screens when you:
Trust neither and go to the police.
And two when you:
Have more points with Kyungso than Takumi, ask Sunwoo to the festival but get rejected.
Bless you for including him, by the way, I saw him
with horns, like Kyungso
in the game folder, does this appear on the game?
I love spoilers, trust me when I say that, that's why I looked on the game folder in the first place xD.
Yep, he does appear like that!
You have to:
Trust Takumi and send him upstairs.

try10
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#27 Post by try10 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm

1. If you've played the demo - no matter how long - at which point did you stop? Was there something you didn't like about it, was something boring you?
Fortunately I finished playing the demo. There were certain scenes that were so unrealistic where I wanted to stop. :(

2. Did you finish the demo or would you finish the demo? Why and why not?
I finished it.

3.How did you like the 3rd person narration?
I think it was ok.

4.Were there enough choices? Did you feel the choices you made were important enough? Do you think they should be more or less choices?
There were enough choices. Some of them were dumb. The ones with the uncle were pretty unnecessary if you know about which scene I'm talking about. I understand that you wanted to add a little bit of crack moments, but those choices and some parts of dialogue was too much to bear. :?

5. Did you reach any of the early endings? Was it difficult to get them?
I managed to get
the one where that girl killed me and the other where the MC ran away from her uncle Kyungso, but he caught her.
6. Were there any unnecessary scenes?
The scenes weren't unnecessary, it's just that the dialogue was poorly written. I'll tell you want I can remember:
The part where she tells Takumi that she needs to take a crap in order to get rid of him. That's just...I mean in real life you don't tell someone something like this :(
When the MC decides to run away and she meets the uncle those multiple choices are bad. You just don't need them. The MC could find an excuse ( one that works or not) or she could just run away. :)
I can't remember the exact scenes but there are numerous times where she tended to exaggerate things or just thought and said things that made no sense.


1. How did you like the heroine? Could you relate to her? Did you find her obnoxious?
Nope. She is too annoying and tends to be overly dramatic and exaggerate. There is too much cursing too. I understand that you wanted to make her seem like a tough girl, but there are some scenes that contradict this ( she agrees to wear the kimono although she doesn't want to. She also lets Sunwoo insult her without smacking him or saying anything, she also lets her uncle do everything he pleases). I think you can do better than this with her personality. You can make her a strong girl without her having to curse at every 5 minutes. Or you can chance her behavior depending on the choices or the guy she chooses.

2. Did you find her reactions to situations emotional enough? Or did you think there wasn't enough inner narration coming from her?
Yes, there were reactions that were emotional enough, but there were also things that she did or said that contradicted the things she was going through. When she was scared sometimes she acted stupid. I think you wanted too add some comedy too ( because the plot is pretty dark and mysterious), but I think you should get someone to help you with those parts. :)

3. Which of the male characters is your favourite? Why don't you like at all?
Kyungso of course. He acted just the way someone like him should. :wink: The least favourite was Sunwoo because he curses too much and doesn't even respect the MC although she is older than him. I mean you curse sometimes when you are VERY, very, very angry, but this guy seems to have some bad words glued on his tongue.

4. Would you perceive any romantic moments between the heroine and the uncle as gross and or inappropriate?
No. Believe me I've read and played some strange things that someone would call them bad. :D

5. What about his younger brother? If you read the only romantic moment, did you like it? Was it unnecessary, or do you even want more?
More please. :) :oops:

6. Would you like to strangle Sunwoo?
OHHHHHHH YESSSSSSSSSSSS! I WANT TO KILL HIM! :evil: He is so nasty! I think I mentioned this above, but the seems like a strong girl, so I have no ideea why does she let a brat talk to her that way! Even if she lives in a new place and wants to make a good impression if she is strong willed like you wanted her to be she wouldn't act submissive and let Sunwoo talk to her like that. People who live in orphanages tend to be very determined and controlling or meek and obedient ( you are a leader or a follower) Some spanking, punching, slapping and STRANGLING options need to be added! :twisted: Or at least she needs to tell him that she won't tolerate any insults from a kid when she didn't do anything to deserve them and she's being nice to him.


7. Do you feel like you can trust any of the characters?
Never! I think everyone has something to hide. I was very surprised
by the killer girl ending :shock:
8. Would you like to see more romance, or do you think it would go without?
Romance is always a good thing as long as it's well written. :)


Music:

- How was the music?
- Did it fit the situation?
- Were the transitions between tracks alright?

Perfect, I loved it! :D


What are your thoughts about the story?
Nice, very nice. You should work more on the dialogue and some of the characters mentioned above and everything will be awesome. I love dark stories and mysteries and BAD ENDS TOO! XD

Is it "mysterious" enough? Are you curious to learn the "truth"?

Oh yes, I can't wait to uncover all the mysteries :)

Is it entertaining enough, or did you find the ratio of slice of life to interesting moments too high?
You need someone to help you write the comedy moments. :(

Do you have any speculations about the motives of the characters?

I have some, but I'm not sharing. :oops: :lol: :D

Were there any plotholes or confusing moments?
Yes, I think I mentioned some of them above.

The story is nice and I really want to see this game finished. I'm sorry if I've been to harsh with my comments, but when I find something nice and promising I always have to say what's on my mind. I'm sure this project will be awesome. Do you plan to have any CG's?

User avatar
Ophelia
Regular
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:38 am
Completed: tobag
Projects: Kajima
Contact:

Re: Kajima [Fantasy|Drama] 3/14 New Demo!

#28 Post by Ophelia » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:30 pm

Thank you so much for playing the demo and answering all my questions! :D

Too bad that you didn't like the comedic scenes, I've thought about it for a bit and while I agree that I haven't actually noticed how Yira is reacting to Sunwoo's behaviour (definitely have to think about this again, thanks!), I won't get another writer or change the scenes. I'm quite happy with them as they are and had my fun writing them. I also want to do this on my own, so this is how it's gonna be. (:

Thanks again for playing and sorry if I'm coming off a bit brusque or anything!
When the MC decides to run away and she meets the uncle those multiple choices are bad. You just don't need them. The MC could find an excuse ( one that works or not) or she could just run away. :)
Haha, yeah, I could have left them, but as you picked up the game isn't completely serious and I just wanted to have those little inside jokes there, which they are, so I'm sorry if they don't make much sense!
I can't remember the exact scenes but there are numerous times where she tended to exaggerate things or just thought and said things that made no sense.
That's definitely one of my weaknesses. I've been roleplaying an insane character for years and haven't actually written a sane or normal character since then, I guess it's difficult to stop with the habit.
Nope. She is too annoying and tends to be overly dramatic and exaggerate. There is too much cursing too. I understand that you wanted to make her seem like a tough girl, but there are some scenes that contradict this ( she agrees to wear the kimono although she doesn't want to. She also lets Sunwoo insult her without smacking him or saying anything, she also lets her uncle do everything he pleases). I think you can do better than this with her personality. You can make her a strong girl without her having to curse at every 5 minutes. Or you can chance her behavior depending on the choices or the guy she chooses.
Yeah, I guess I will need to remove a few swear words. I noticed when proof-reading that it could be a bit much, but didn't bother changing that. Guess that's another bad habit of mine!
About the kimono... well, I probably didn't convey it properly, but she agreed so easily because there was suddenly this new authority/parental figure in her life and, it sounds a bit silly, but I think that children actually earn for these things. Well, at least Yira does, which is why she goes along with the strict boundaries he sets, though, her temper does flare up I guess.
At least that was my intention when writing those scenes. (:
OHHHHHHH YESSSSSSSSSSSS! I WANT TO KILL HIM! :evil: He is so nasty! I think I mentioned this above, but the seems like a strong girl, so I have no ideea why does she let a brat talk to her that way! Even if she lives in a new place and wants to make a good impression if she is strong willed like you wanted her to be she wouldn't act submissive and let Sunwoo talk to her like that. People who live in orphanages tend to be very determined and controlling or meek and obedient ( you are a leader or a follower) Some spanking, punching, slapping and STRANGLING options need to be added! :twisted: Or at least she needs to tell him that she won't tolerate any insults from a kid when she didn't do anything to deserve them and she's being nice to him.
Well, the things is, she is a child and he is too. You can't just tell bratty children to "stop it", they won't listen to it anyway so she goes the path of the least resistance and just accepts that he's a brat and that there probably won't be anything that will change that. He isn't always such a brat though and... yeah, no.
The story is nice and I really want to see this game finished. I'm sorry if I've been to harsh with my comments, but when I find something nice and promising I always have to say what's on my mind. I'm sure this project will be awesome. Do you plan to have any CG's?
It's fine! I can totally understand where you're coming from and I'm sorry that I won't change the things you've criticised!
No, there won't be any CGs since this is actually my first project and was supposed to be a short practise game. This whole story actually only exists because I looked at the available free sprites and thought of something. :)
I do, however, have already another game planned for which I will commission art assets.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users