[BxG] Marry, F*ck, Kill [Drama, Dark, Pyschological Horror]

[ZennyZenZen]

Game Announcement

Marry, F*ck, Kill



3D Character Design Made With Artificial Academy 2
(Not going to use 3D characters, just in case you were thinking)

::Plot::

You are a man in your late 20's with a boring medial office job. You spend every day shuffling papers here and there, and sometimes working late to save some extra cash. One night, coming home from overtime, you bump into a mysterious but charismatic man in the subway. You talk a little bit and then he smiles at you and tells you that you are an interesting person. He then tells you that he cursed you. To prove it, he kills you on the spot with just an eye-blink, makes you experience the suffering of death, and brings you back to life in one piece. For his entertainment, you have to play the 'marry, f*ck, kill' game to 3 certain women in your life. If you fail to do the deeds within two months, you will experience the same suffering of death, forever.

::Characters::

:Matsuo Fumika:



Fumika is your childhood friend, unfortunately bedridden in a hospital with a rare, confusing, and unknown disease. It doesn't appear to have any visible effects nor does it appear to be contagious, but according to the doctors, if she is not treated carefully her life is at great danger. The doctors say that they are working on a cure and research has been going well, but they are unsure of when the disease will get the best of Fumika.

She has always been a moody girl, but after knowing about her condition, she has become full-blown bipolar. You visit her every now and then, usually with a book to read with her, and she appreciates what you do for her.

:Sy Louise:



Louise is your co-worker. Although she does the same work you do, she likes to treat you like a senior because you started working a year before her.

Despite being almost as hardworking as you, she appears to be dull, plain, and boring. She has always been insecure about her looks, which can be pretty tedious when she almost always asks you for emotional support. Nevertheless, she is a nice girl and a diligent worker, and she also noticeably likes you

:Hellene Erina:



Ms. Hellene is often known as 'Hell Girl' in the office. She is your boss, and she is usually picky and anal about the smallest offenses and faults. Everyone in the office bears an innate grudge against her for overworking them.

But not to you it seems. She seems to be more lenient with you compared to your co-workers, maybe because you are actually doing your job well and you are an asset to the company. So it's not as if you're receiving any sort of preferential treatment. However, instead of overworking you like the rest of the office, she usually appoints you to do extra work such as making her coffee or giving her a back rub.

~~~

Concept art:

[Mad Harlequin]

I'm more than a little disquieted by the idea that romance and a sexual encounter are attached to/spurred by a death threat . . .

[victorita9]

This could be interesting yet disturbing. Is the main character(mc) character going to feel a lot of guilt during the story, but self preservation comes first? Or is he more apathetic about the situation?

[ZennyZenZen]

This could be interesting yet disturbing. Is the main character(mc) character going to feel a lot of guilt during the story, but self preservation comes first? Or is he more apathetic about the situation?

Maybe. I'll try to make the game so that you can pick what order you'd like to marry, f*ck, kill. Each pattern has it's own pros and cons. Lemme try to make some pseudo pattern

M F K - Killing last is probably the most practical, but that should affect your marriage. Not to mention, cheating on your wife within a month after getting married.

F M K - Choosing to have an affair with someone before marriage feels morally right. But that should make getting married a whole lot harder. But killing someone right after getting married? Hmm.

K F M - Killing first will give you less guilt over time. But anyone who finds out might give you difficulty seducing and attracting someone.

Or something like that.

[Mad Harlequin]

My concerns:

What's stopping the MC from pulling a gun on each person and saying "Sleep with me or I'll kill you"?

Even if he doesn't do that, is it really a good idea to classify this as a romance when a marriage and an affair are just a means to an end (his survival)? I don't think so. And even if he tells them what's going on, are these women just going to be guilt-tripped into doing whatever the MC wants them to do?

Honestly, the only "good" end I can see coming out of this, aside from the mysterious [expletive] being stopped somehow, is the MC choosing to kill himself and ending the "game" instead of subjecting the other characters to it . . .

[ZennyZenZen]

My concerns:

What's stopping the MC from pulling a gun on each person and saying "Sleep with me or I'll kill you"?

Even if he doesn't do that, is it really a good idea to classify this as a romance when a marriage and an affair are just a means to an end (his survival)? I don't think so. And even if he tells them what's going on, are these women just going to be guilt-tripped into doing whatever the MC wants them to do?

Honestly, the only "good" end I can see coming out of this, aside from the mysterious [expletive] being stopped somehow, is the MC choosing to kill himself and ending the "game" instead of subjecting the other characters to it . . .

Uhm... how about basic human empathy? Innate kindness. Not to mention, close ties with these women. But yeah, since one of the goals is f*ck, it is going to be possible to rape instead of seduce. But that's going to also affect the end of the game.

Don't you think the main character is also going to think about his life after doing the three deeds within two months? For sure he doesn't want to spend his time in jail. And as much as possible, keep a good reputation afterward. I guess I'm classifying it as romance because I'm also thinking about what's going to happen after the curse is lifted. Also, these three women have some sort of say 'liking' to the mc. Even if the mc becomes an emotionless selfish bastard who only cares about his survival, don't you think a one-sided love is considered part of the romance? But I hear ya, I guess I'll omit that.

I hear you about the whole 'tell the girls about his situation.' Now I could make that an option, and I do think it's an interesting choice to make. Perhaps guilt-tripping them into an affair would be easy. But how do you expect to guilt-trip them into spending the rest of their life with you, and/or ending their life right then and there. And say divorce was easy, still, guilt-tripping them into letting you kill them isn't exactly a very effective way to kill them.

Also. What are you going to say, "Hey, i'm cursed by some mysterious douchebag. He killed me and brought me back to life. Now he cursed me and i'll die in two months if I don't kill you." You know the first place that person is going? The crazy hospital.

If the main character kills himself then that's a fate worse than death. The death caused by the mystery man is worse than death itself. Perhaps suicide is the kinder way out, but who's going to thank you? What about your hopes and your dreams.

Oh and not to mention. This is all literary fun. None of this is real nor does it have an effect on your life. It's a story meant for entertainment. And I'm writing this just for the sake of writing it. I think it's a pretty neat idea for a dark story (something i'm not very familiar with writing). So yeah. It's all literary fun. The intent is to make readers think, 'well, that was an okay read.'

[bellice]

Okay, on one hand, it's a story I haven't seen before and it could be interesting, if done right. On the other hand, I feel extremely uncomfortable playing a man who holds that kind of power over the fate of these women.
It gives off some very unfortunate implications - that women are just pawns to be used, for one. And that using a woman or even killing her (or RAPING her) is perfectly justified under certain conditions. (Which would be bad no matter the gender, but the player having to step into the shoes of a man to kill a woman just seems extra nasty.)

I'm not saying you have to change the story. As I said, if done right, these implications may even disappear in the actual game. But for me, it's very hard to feel any sort of empathy for the main character, no matter how he goes about it.

[SparkyRailgun]

If the MC has agreed to play the game by not offing himself or attempting to stop this mystery man, I think he's already given up on his basic social empathy. He's implicitly agreed to take advantage of three women emotionally, sexually and physically. Anyone with half a moral compass could see that it's a bad thing to do to save your own life; especially when there's no guarantee this mysterious man doesn't just off him for laughs afterwards anyway.

[ZennyZenZen]

If the MC has agreed to play the game by not offing himself or attempting to stop this mystery man, I think he's already given up on his basic social empathy. He's implicitly agreed to take advantage of three women emotionally, sexually and physically. Anyone with half a moral compass could see that it's a bad thing to do to save your own life; especially when there's no guarantee this mysterious man doesn't just off him for laughs afterwards anyway.

It's not that he agreed to play the game. He was terrorized into it. Gladiators are prisoners trained to kill each other for the entertainment of the powerful. And in this case, this mystery man has a unique power over life and death, a supernatural power of sorts. He terrorizes our mc over taking advantage of three women over threat of fate worse than death.

Also, the basic human empathy was the answer to the question, "What's stopping the mc from raping?" Well, let me give a different answer. You. You have control over the story. And you can choose to do, or not do.

And nobody's saying anything that happens in this story is moral. This is a terrible situation to be in, not that it could ever happen.

You have control over the mc and what he does. You can choose not to do any of the three over two months and die. Game over. The end. Congratulations, you finished one ending.

And as I said, this is all for literary fun. You can't always write about sunshine and rainbows. Nobody likes rape, nobody likes murder. But this is all happening in a fictional universe. It's not right I agree, but it is also not real.

Consider our minds to be a wonderful thing to be able to imagine and create stories. It's controversial, it's maturely themed, it's dark, and it's not justified at all. The mc is neither the bad guy or the good guy, he is a character like everybody else. And you can totally argue that he's the bad guy. I'd think if the mc chose to do these, he becomes a terrible person. Nobody's saying the acts he is going to or is supposed to commit is justified. It's definitely not. And nobody's saying any of this is moral either.

But you know who I think is the bad guy in my own story, the mystery man. If he wasn't such an evil person, the mc wouldn't be in this mess. But what sort of power does the mc have over this man. None. The mystery man has powers over life and death and he chose not to use it for good. He uses it to manipulate people to do things they normally would never ever do for his entertainment.

[Mad Harlequin]

If the MC has agreed to play the game by not offing himself or attempting to stop this mystery man, I think he's already given up on his basic social empathy. He's implicitly agreed to take advantage of three women emotionally, sexually and physically. Anyone with half a moral compass could see that it's a bad thing to do to save your own life; especially when there's no guarantee this mysterious man doesn't just off him for laughs afterwards anyway.

THIS. This is exactly why I'm concerned.

It's not that he agreed to play the game. He was terrorized into it. Gladiators are prisoners trained to kill each other for the entertainment of the powerful. And in this case, this mystery man has a unique power over life and death, a supernatural power of sorts. He terrorizes our mc over taking advantage of three women over threat of fate worse than death.

This is true. People do horrible things out of fear. But that doesn't absolve the MC of responsibility.

If the main character kills himself then that's a fate worse than death. The death caused by the mystery man is worse than death itself. Perhaps suicide is the kinder way out, but who's going to thank you? What about your hopes and your dreams?

So the MC's life is judged to be worth more than theirs by default?

Oh and not to mention. This is all literary fun. None of this is real nor does it have an effect on your life. It's a story meant for entertainment. And I'm writing this just for the sake of writing it. I think it's a pretty neat idea for a dark story (something i'm not very familiar with writing). So yeah. It's all literary fun. The intent is to make readers think, 'well, that was an okay read.'

Obviously. I'm not posting because I lack understanding of that. And for the record, I enjoy "dark stories" and am writing one myself.

If you're looking to write a Faustian type of story about how a guy gets backed into a corner and is compelled to do horrible things by a horrible demon or whatever, that's fine---as long as you communicate the fact that they're horrible and that the MC is complicit. I'm not objecting to that (though the fetishized sprite designs make me damn uncomfortable too). I have a problem with this project being classified as romance and "BxG," because romance it ain't. (Yes, I've noticed the romance tag has been removed.)

[ZennyZenZen]

Obviously. I'm not posting because I lack understanding of that. And for the record, I enjoy "dark stories" and am writing one myself.

Oh cool. Sorry. I'm more used to dealing with easily offended people over some fictional something. So sorry if I was being defensive / passive-aggressive.

But yeah, I like that we're discussing the story. It basically means that I wrote up something worth talking about.

that's fine---as long as you communicate the fact that they're horrible and that the MC is complicit.

Of course. If I knew what the genre was for that, i'd stick it in there. But lemme go put [Dark] in there as well.

I have a problem with this project being classified as romance and "BxG"

You play as a guy, at some point you get girl. I understand the romance argument. But the BxG thing is there simply cuz you play as a guy and you get girl.

It's like... I'm not sure if you've seen "Play play play" but it's an eroge with a lot of rape. But does the mc at any point rape a guy? no. Is the mc at any point female? no. therefore BxG.

though the fetishized sprite designs make me damn uncomfortable too

Well, I did make them using Artificial Academy 2. An eroge where you can create 3D characters and plop them in an academy and see what they do. That was the default boob size, I could make it smaller and shape it differently, but I was like, eh, no time fo dat. Other than that, I don't see how the characters are fetishized other than the fact that their boobs are big and they look like anime characters.

But maybe my idea of a fetish is different from yours. It's like, I like boyish girls. So were boyish girls fetishized for me? no. Girls who happen to be boyish trigger a desire in me that I call a 'fetish.' I didn't make the characters with attractiveness in mind. In fact, these characters kinda sorta half-based on other characters who I thought looked suitable for them. I just needed a look, and I made it. So, if anything blame the game.

My friend is into VN eroge and he likes the dark ones, so I guess that kinda rubbed off on me to make this one.

[Mad Harlequin]

You play as a guy, at some point you get girl. I understand the romance argument. But the BxG thing is there simply cuz you play as a guy and you get girl.

It's like... I'm not sure if you've seen "Play play play" but it's an eroge with a lot of rape. But does the mc at any point rape a guy? no. Is the mc at any point female? no. therefore BxG.

No, I haven't seen it. But, see, the very idea that you "get" a character is problematic, though I'll leave the broader discussion for another day. And in this kind of story the implications are disturbing.

I know such tags are required here (are they? I can't recall), but . . . well, you can see why that would jump at me.

Other than that, I don't see how the characters are fetishized other than the fact that their boobs are big and they look like anime characters.

Eroge character models meet the definition of fetishized: sexualized bodies, tight clothes, meek expressions. And in a game of this type, that presents even more of a problem . . .

But it could be that this is how the MC sees the other characters, because he's . . . not a stand-up guy. I don't know what made you make that decision, and of course, I can't tell you not to use them.

[Shaples]

And nobody's saying anything that happens in this story is moral. This is a terrible situation to be in, not that it could ever happen.

I think, to me, this is the core of the problem: it's clearly a manufactured situation designed to initiate and (more-or-less) condone a power fantasy. The big bad is only there to force the MC's hand: his only role and power in the story seems to be to make it impossible for the MC to refuse, which is both unrealistic and not compelling from a story standpoint. Crazed psychos forcing people to do things can be interesting, but only when the MC has something to lose, or some way to fight back. As you've presented it so far, the worst possible consequences are "MC might get caught" or "the wife might be unhappy" but since he doesn't have a choice but to do it anyway, the stakes are super low.

Since it doesn't feel like a story yet, it feels like an elaborate excuse for the MC to treat some women badly, which clearly has struck a negative cord with a lot of people. If you want this story to be dramatic and suspenseful, the stakes need to be higher and more realistic.

[ZennyZenZen]

I feel as if the whole gamergate and feminist movement has some influence here, but I won't argue with that. That's an argument for a different day and different place.

I think it's because I haven't given a 'character' to the main character. Right now he's blank, and therefore easy to attack. I notice that you're thinking of him as this heartless, emotionless bastard that actually wants and desires to manipulate these girls. And that is not the case at all. I'm sorry if it feels that way and if I knew how to project the fact that that's not the case, I would. And the only way I know how is to make the game itself, and let it speak for itself.

MC has something to lose. A normal life. And he will lose it whether or not he decides to go through with it.

MC might get caught? Do you know how scary jail is? It's way worse than what you see in movies. It's supposed to be a place where you are isolated from the world so that you won't cause trouble, but instead, jail has become a world of it's own with way worse troubles for you. Having a criminal record, especially one for murder, destroys your future. You will forever be reminded of your deed for the rest of your life and you have to live with it. You can't get a normal job. Everyone around you curses you and judges you for it. And rightfully so.

The wife might be unhappy. Well, you married her. Even if you were doing it for your own survival you married a woman and broke her heart in the span of two months. Now if the mc was an emotionless heartless bastard, I can see how you could hate him in this situation. But I believe I mentioned before that, as much as possible, mc wants to keep a good reputation and that's not going to change even if he's doing these for his survival. So whoever he picks to be his wife, he's going to want to keep her happy because he doesn't like it when anyone's unhappy. Especially whoever he had to kill. And especially whoever you had to rape, if you decide to rape.

Note, I said 'if' you decide to rape. A consensual love affair is an option and I believe that you would rather choose this option.

Stakes need to be higher and more realistic? What's worse and more realistic than the rest of your life being ruined? You murdered someone you know, and you know that they didn't deserve it. And you have to live with the fact for the rest of your life, and it's even worse if say the police find out. You had an affair with someone not because you ultimately wanted to, but because you ultimately wanted to live and escape the horrifying fear and suffering you experienced. You married someone you didn't love. You emotionally manipulated someone into spending the rest of their life with you. And for what? So you could stay alive.

After reading that and imagining the end-result in your mind. Won't you feel really bad about it? Putting yourself in the characters shoes for a moment and not playing the game yet. Won't you feel bad that you've just killed someone, just fucked someone, and marry someone not out of pure love. Then of course the mc is going to feel bad. Nobody's saying he's not going to feel bad. Nobody's saying his fictional life is not going to be ruined. It is going to be very very strongly implied that everything he did is wrong and he's going to deal with that for the rest of his fictional life.

And then we turn to me, the creator of the story. I'm making a fictional character suffer through traumatizing events that will destroy his chances of ever living a normal fictional life again.

[Caveat Lector]

There are several things about this that have got me concerned--I mean yes, the basic premise kind of made me side-eye it a bit, but hey, I'm all up for a dark story, so long as it's done well. But I have to respond to a lot of things you've said. The basics have already been covered by other users in this thread, so I'm just offering up my two cents.

You have control over the mc and what he does. You can choose not to do any of the three over two months and die. Game over. The end. Congratulations, you finished one ending.

In different mediums, there are many different ways you can characterize a character, some of which are unique to their own mediums. One of the most effective ways you can characterize someone in a video game with choices is by the choices they can or cannot make. If you have a character who finds a lost wallet, and you're given a choice between "find the owner yourself" or "take it to the police station", that means the character is implicitly honest and would never consider taking any of the money for themselves. However, if the choice is instead "find the owner" or "take it for yourself", that means the character is at a bit of a moral crossroad and a bit more complex--part of them wants to do what's right, but the other part is a tad selfish and greedy. That they're a generally honest person in principle, but also want to be "bad" for a change.

So if you've got your Average Joe who is given the choice to rape another woman or respect her boundaries...what does that say about the MC? You say you also have the choice not do any of it, sure, but you also mention that the MC's main concern is going to jail or ruining their reputation, and yet what stops them from committing rape on their own or holding a gun to these women's heads is "human empathy". If the MC is set up as morally questionable or outright villainous from the get-go, then it wouldn't be as much of a problem. The problem isn't that he's a guy who's caught up in a fucked-up situation and needs to do fucked-up things to survive, it's that he's a guy caught up in a fucked-up situation who places a higher value for his own life above the lives of others and yet will apparently be portrayed as a "good person" who doesn't hold a gun to these women's heads because of "human empathy" nonetheless. You say "nobody's saying what happens in these stories is good", but if you're setting him up as someone who is capable of feeling empathy and then chooses to just ignore that empathy for the sake of saving his own skin, that says something different.

K F M - Killing first will give you less guilt over time. But anyone who finds out might give you difficulty seducing and attracting someone.

Killing first gives the MC less guilt over time? And you're setting him up as a good person capable of feeling human empathy? Here's the thing: Murder is not something that can be done in a split-second without hesitation, barring certain circumstances. It can actually have long-term damaging effects on a person's psyche, even if it's done in self-defense or the defense of someone else. Here's a good article about writing on death, dying, and murder. In particular, points four and five would be strongly recommended reading for this case.

If Average Joe is meant to be set up as a good person who feels human empathy and would rather not kill if given the choice, then his biggest concern over killing someone should be the fact that he's killing someone, that he's taking a life, that he's potentially putting their loved ones through a lot of grief and robbing the victim of the chance to live a good life, no matter how "justified" he may be in doing so. If his biggest concern is just having difficult seducing and/or attracting someone afterwards, going to jail, and/or having his reputation ruined, sorry, but he's a sociopath. Doesn't matter what the story itself says, if his biggest concern about killing someone is how it affects his own chances at romance or a successful career, that pretty much nils any argument that he's capable of feeling empathy. Even if the story is intended to just be "entertainment", that doesn't mean people can't take away their own interpretation from it. Even if he's intended to be sympathetic, that doesn't necessarily mean he is sympathetic, if that makes sense.

(Yes, it's reasonable to want to avoid jail time; but if jail time, as in personal consequences for one's self, is the only thing that prevents someone from committing rape and/or murder, that doesn't really make them very sympathetic if they're intended to be sympathetic)

And as I said, this is all for literary fun. You can't always write about sunshine and rainbows. Nobody likes rape, nobody likes murder. But this is all happening in a fictional universe. It's not right I agree, but it is also not real.

Consider our minds to be a wonderful thing to be able to imagine and create stories. It's controversial, it's maturely themed, it's dark, and it's not justified at all. The mc is neither the bad guy or the good guy, he is a character like everybody else. And you can totally argue that he's the bad guy. I'd think if the mc chose to do these, he becomes a terrible person. Nobody's saying the acts he is going to or is supposed to commit is justified. It's definitely not. And nobody's saying any of this is moral either.

Nobody's saying "OMG ONLY WRITE ABOUT HAPPY THINGS", we're saying "hey, this looks like a decent premise and set-up, but you might want to think about the execution". Because ultimately, that's what it comes down to: execution. And it's great to hear you agree that if the MC does these things then that makes him a terrible person. But again, the problem is how we're supposed to view him in light of these things, and you keep alternating between "empathy stops him from doing these things" and "yeah, he's pretty much an asshole if he does this". Ask yourself, "what sort of character is this guy supposed to be? Is he an anti-hero, a villain protagonist, or just a poor innocent caught up in a bad situation?". Once you answer that, then it's easier to see how you can characterize him. From the sounds of things, however, and I am just saying this based off of what's been described of him so far, he sounds an awful lot like a sociopathic villain protagonist who just happens to cross paths with another villain who's slightly eviller by comparison, and is like this from the get-go. And hey, if that's what you're going for, do it, but I would also recommend checking out other works with a villain protagonist to see how those are executed within the narrative. I would recommend going here or here to look at examples.

Of course, if you're not intending for him to be a Villain Protagonist, then maybe check resources on writing anti-heroes or victims of circumstance instead.

Also, just have to get this off my back: Including adult subject matter does not instantly make something "mature". What makes something maturely-written is how it handles its plot and themes, philosophy and character development, the depth of the characters, etc. How much adult content it has or doesn't have does not impact how mature it is or is not. Or, to quote from JesuOtaku's Puella Magi Madoka Magica review:

'Dark subversion' is not a measure of quality. It is an element or a gimmick, like any other...it can be bad, it can fail.

(for the record, this comment was made in response to PMMM being hyped up on the basis of "it's darker and edgier" and she was discussing why, though this may be true, this is not and should not be used to determine how good or bad something is, and she gave the show a wholly-positive review based around how well it was written and told and executed its genre, NOT just for being "a darker and edgier magical girl show")

And lastly:

But you know who I think is the bad guy in my own story, the mystery man. If he wasn't such an evil person, the mc wouldn't be in this mess. But what sort of power does the mc have over this man. None. The mystery man has powers over life and death and he chose not to use it for good. He uses it to manipulate people to do things they normally would never ever do for his entertainment.

That's the other major problem I have with this: The MC himself is in a position of power over these women, too. Not physical, supernatural power, but he is still set up in a situation where he has the potential to choose which women live and which ones don't. If he decides who's the most "disposable" one, that particular character could die. And since he plans to manipulate other women into either falling in love with him so he can marry them or getting into bed with him--and possibly leaving one or the other with a broken heart once he moves on with someone else--then he's also using the power of manipulation. It doesn't seem like there's much of a difference between the MC and the mystery man.

So basically, the MC does reprehensible things, is given the choice NOT to do them and nobley sacrifice his life so no one gets hurt but also has the choice to do them and become a monster..and yet this mystery guy is the one whom we're supposed to view as "THE" bad guy, as worse by comparison? If there's not much of a difference between the hero and the villain's actions, then the story is either an intentional black-and-gray/gray-and-gray/black-and-black morality story (which could be interesting if done right), or the story has a bad case of Moral Dissonance.

Look, I know people are going to say "let him make the game he wants" and hey, I'm all up for dark games. But I also believe in giving someone the tools to help them make the game they want, and to do it well. If done right, a dark game can be really amazing and thought-provoking even if it's intended as just entertainment alone. If done poorly, a dark game can come off as insulting and trivializing, and not even the "it's just fiction" disclaimer can hold water for that.