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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#31 Post by Guest » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:33 pm

1) Protip: Most eroge/dating sims/whatever ARE poorly written. For every Fate/Stay Night or Ever17 there are literally thousands of Gang Rape Clubs/Maiden Rape Assault: Violent Semen Infernos/Rapelays.

2) Starting off with a hook is unnecessary, and starting off with such a shitty hook is offensive. You aren't going to be having sex in an eroge left and right in the first 10 screens of gameplay, why start with pointless fanservice? Also, it's interesting you brought up that literature was not invented in the 90s, because never did I say it was, and in stories dating back to the 1500s, even books with hooks tended to have the concept be the hook, or had the hook 50 pages in. Starting off with a hook is a hack trick, especially in a visual novel.

3) Tolstoy starts off with a hook and then takes a billion pages to describe the events of a decade and then tens to describe another... lawl. Dostoyevsky is a better example if you want to go by brooding old eurowriters. Or Franz Kafka, even.

4) This is an amateur VN and you guys are suggesting hooks like it is a novel. Go read what you are writing. Tolstoy? The history of literature? The concept of writing? It's a VN. In fact, Mrsulu tried to bring his past life editor cred in on it to back up his opinion that he knows what he is talking about, when, as this is a visual novel, which has entirely different standards, presentation methods, design, due to being an entirely different medium altogether, they are not the same sport so much as in the same league. Way, way off base. You want to compare video games to books and movies next? You can, but it's ultimately comparing apples and oranges.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#32 Post by papillon » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:59 pm

I really don't understand why you're so offended at the idea of someone actually caring about the writing in their game. "Most eroges are badly written, so I want your non-eroge to be badly written too, so that I can continue to feel superior about the genre"?
thousands of Gang Rape Clubs/Maiden Rape Assault: Violent Semen Infernos/Rapelays
If you're making a game whose selling point is "PORN PORN RAPE RAPE RAPE!" then your audience is playing the game for the SEX and the PICTURES and doesn't care much about the writing. So no, there's not really a point to worrying about the story hook because the hook is "Rape everyone in sight!"

However, this game is *not* in the H section, and like every game in this section, the *writing* is therefore a major part of the appeal. If you're tuning into a VN that's not a pure fuckfest, you're goign to have to read an awful lot of text. If that text sucks or is boring, you will probably lose interest and wander away.

No, a VN is not the same thing as a novel or a movie or a comic book. Neither is it the same thing as a match-3, which is also a video game.

Now, I'm not going to talk about any specifics mrsulu mentioned for hooks because I don't remember what he said and I don't recall if they were any good at all. But you seem to keep saying that the only thing anyone could possibly do to get interest at the beginning of a game is a cliche panty-flash. And that's just stupid. Depending on what the plot and focus of your game actually is, you can drop all sorts of interesting hints near the beginning to get people's attention.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#33 Post by PyTom » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Even in an adult VN, a good story is important. I mean, VNs are probably the least efficient porn-delivery method devised by man. You can spend 8-20 hours to see a few hundred CGs. So people are obviously playing for something else, even with your Come See Me Tonight-style games.
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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#34 Post by Guest » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:22 pm

I really don't understand why you're so offended at the idea of someone actually caring about the writing in their game. "Most eroges are badly written, so I want your non-eroge to be badly written too, so that I can continue to feel superior about the genre"?

Nice job posting while TOTALLY misunderstanding. No, I don't want everyone to write shit, I want you guys to realize that giving suggestions on how to write a VN like a book = stupid, because they are not even the same medium and have totally different standards and methods of presentation. But you fail at reading comprehension and just got all defensive and butthurt and totally lost the plot.

Now, I'm not going to talk about any specifics mrsulu mentioned for hooks because I don't remember what he said and I don't recall if they were any good at all. But you seem to keep saying that the only thing anyone could possibly do to get interest at the beginning of a game is a cliche panty-flash. And that's just stupid. Depending on what the plot and focus of your game actually is, you can drop all sorts of interesting hints near the beginning to get people's attention.

That was the entire point I was trying to make, but because you POSTED WITHOUT READING MRSULU'S POST, WHICH IS ONE PAGE BACK, you failed to see that Mrsulu wants the game to start with a cliche panty flash, and I would rather Mikan not insult the reader's intelligence and present exposition in a way that is not a horrible 90s-writing flashback.

Clearly you just read my post only and jumped at the chance to pick it apart without considering the context of this entire thread.

Also lawl @ LSF suggesting Skim take tips from Tolstoy when the average LSF VN is 15 minutes long and Tolstoy's writing is... not short. Not to mention Tolstoy writes, you know, books, which work totally different from a VN. If you want to compare VNs to anything, compare them to plays, not books. But even then, VNs are more character driven than plays, not driven by overarching themes(though there are exceptions).

Even in an adult VN, a good story is important. I mean, VNs are probably the least efficient porn-delivery method devised by man. You can spend 8-20 hours to see a few hundred CGs. So people are obviously playing for something else, even with your Come See Me Tonight-style games.


Smartest post in the thread but not really relevant. VNs are, however, more efficient than books and must be written accordingly. However they do not need cheapo intro hooks, that is just lazy and cliche. It's lame across the board in every medium. It's a shitty "gotcha" gimmick in books, amateurish in movies, more work than it's worth in plays, and it's just as bad in VNs.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#35 Post by monele » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:05 pm

Is it possible that you be polite, not condescending and not know-it-all? It's annoying.

Also, could you give existing examples of what you consider a good H VN and a good non-H VN?

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#36 Post by Guest » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:14 pm

Is it possible that you be polite, not condescending and not know-it-all? It's annoying.

I'm only being as condescending and know-it-all as everyone else. I'm not the one dragging in Tolstoy to talk about VNs and going way out of my scope. Nor am I the one attacking someone with zero context, not having even read the thread I'm posting in.

Also, could you give existing examples of what you consider a good H VN and a good non-H VN?

Why?

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#37 Post by mrsulu » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:24 pm

Troll....TROLLLLLLLLL...
That was the entire point I was trying to make, but because you POSTED WITHOUT READING MRSULU'S POST, WHICH IS ONE PAGE BACK, you failed to see that Mrsulu wants the game to start with a cliche panty flash, and I would rather Mikan not insult the reader's intelligence and present exposition in a way that is not a horrible 90s-writing flashback.
Pray tell, when did I say "panty flash?" Oh, wait, I didn't.

Mikan's meet-cute (see Roger Ebert) was a better start than his internal monologue. Meet-cute covered material already in monologue; thus, monologue was superfluous. I suggested alternate starts, too, besides the meet-cute. But, no, you have to misquote my post and flame on and on.

Troll talk crazy. Stop feeding the troll.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#38 Post by papillon » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:31 pm

Guest wrote: Nice job posting while TOTALLY misunderstanding. No, I don't want everyone to write shit, I want you guys to realize that giving suggestions on how to write a VN like a book = stupid, because they are not even the same medium and have totally different standards and methods of presentation. But you fail at reading comprehension and just got all defensive and butthurt and totally lost the plot.
I fail at reading comprehension when my post explicitly said "no, VNs are not books"? :)
That was the entire point I was trying to make, but because you POSTED WITHOUT READING MRSULU'S POST, WHICH IS ONE PAGE BACK, you failed to see that Mrsulu wants the game to start with a cliche panty flash, and I would rather Mikan not insult the reader's intelligence and present exposition in a way that is not a horrible 90s-writing flashback.

Clearly you just read my post only and jumped at the chance to pick it apart without considering the context of this entire thread.
No, I read mrsulu's post when he first posted it and shrugged at it. Then I read updates to the thread a few more times over the last couple of days and became baffled at the way you were still going on about it. I didn't want to defend the specifics of mrsulu's post because as I dimly remembered his suggestions were not perfect, but the perfection or not of his suggestions was irrelevant to the discussion, and I didn't want him to feel that I was attacking him or picking apart his post when his post wasn't the matter being discussed. Therefore, I chose to address YOUR post rather than go back and examine his post in detail.

... As far as I can tell, his post says NOTHING about panty-flashes. Only you do. :) His post appears to mention a girl opening a door into your face, then commenting on your tie being askew.
Smartest post in the thread but not really relevant. VNs are, however, more efficient than books and must be written accordingly. However they do not need cheapo intro hooks, that is just lazy and cliche. It's lame across the board in every medium. It's a shitty "gotcha" gimmick in books, amateurish in movies, more work than it's worth in plays, and it's just as bad in VNs.
Why do you consistently, over and over and over and over again, speak only about 'cheapo' hooks when most people are not saying that panty-flashes are a good idea, unless you are specifically intending to write Pile O Cliche?

All most people are saying, repeatedly, is that pure sequential slice-of-life can be boring, and that the beginning of the game should include SOME hint of interesting things to come.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#39 Post by N0UGHTS » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:33 pm

Guest wrote:I want you guys to realize that giving suggestions on how to write a VN like a book = stupid, because they are not even the same medium and have totally different standards and methods of presentation.

VNs are, however, more efficient than books and must be written accordingly. However they do not need cheapo intro hooks, that is just lazy and cliche. It's lame across the board in every medium. It's a shitty "gotcha" gimmick in books, amateurish in movies, more work than it's worth in plays, and it's just as bad in VNs.
Even though an ADV isn't exactly a book, I'm still pretty sure the writing still has to be "book-like." Except without all the descriptions, because there are pictures. Really... I just see ADVs as interactive picture books. Except with deeper plots... (That doesn't mean "good," though...) Picture books are a kind of book, I'm pretty sure...

Huh? Cheap intro hooks? Uh... I'm not sure any of us said, "These sorts of games need stupid hooks." At least, I only interprested the posts as, "These sorts of games need good hooks." Unless my definition of "good" is "stupid," or something like that...
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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#40 Post by Mikan » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:47 pm

haha oh dear

What a fascinating discussion.
I think I ought to make a few things clear though before fists start flying.

First off, this version of the game doesn't have any pornographic scenes.
The characters are only going to be around 14-15 years old. The most that'll happen is that they kiss or grope each other, but there isn't going to be any explicit sex scenes anywhere. This game will focus on the first year of their high school lives and the personalities and development of the characters.

I started working on this game with the intention of making an eroge, but I changed my mind later when I realized how shallow or cliché each character would have to be in order to do that. I think it'd be kind of nice if the player is able to get to know each character a bit more intimately so that in the event that he or she does encounter a sex scene, it will be much more meaningful -- not just erotic, but maybe saddening, upsetting, triumphant... you guys know what I mean.


Sotry writing isn't my strong point, but I want the characters to be personality-wise interesting. I think this is a valid challenge for me since I know drawing the game isn't going to be that huge of a challenge. I'll certainly be explaining and expressing more things through the artwork than the storyline, but this doesn't mean the story can simply be neglected. The pictures will draw in players and make them want to play more, but it would be even better if the story was also attractive and drew people in. All that separates my game from an artbook or a slideshow is a good story.
A story that'll leave an impression, a feeling, with the artwork.

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#41 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:15 pm

"HOLDING HANDS" BY AMBER TURPIN

THOUGH INTIMATE SHOULD REALLY BE
THE HAND THAT HOLDS A PART OF ME
DISTANCE COMES WITH BROKEN HEARTS
THE HAND THAT HOLDS CAN FEEL APART

A SENSE OF TOUCH CAN'T OVERCOME
A LOSS OF TRUST, A BROKEN HOME
HOLDING HANDS CAN FEEL ALONE
WITH SHATTERED HEARTS THAT HAVE TO MOURN

A SIMPLE THING LIKE HOLDING HANDS
CAN TELL A TALE OF WHERE THINGS STAND
SO KEEP YOUR TRUST AND DON'T BETRAY
THE HAND THAT HOLDS YOUR HEART TODAY

DISTANCE COMES WITH BROKEN HEARTS
THE HAND THAT HOLDS CAN FEEL APART
SO KEEP YOUR TRUST AND DON'T BETRAY
THE HAND THAT HOLDS YOUR HEART TODAY

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#42 Post by PyTom » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:29 pm

Since this thread is getting a bit heated, I'm going to go ahead and ban guest posting to this thread. The guest above has a forum account, so if he wants to keep this up, he can go ahead and do it under his own username.
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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#43 Post by N0UGHTS » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:26 pm

Thank you, PyTom... I don't want to be get hurt while I'm regressed. Then I turn violent. :laughs:

ADVs starting with a hook aren't pretentious; they just want players to be more engaged in the story and therefore have more fun with the game from the beginning. I don't see what makes a game with a "late" hook inherently better...

In the end, players are going to stick with the game because of the characters and plot, that's true. But that's the meat of the game, isn't it? That's what it's made of? And, I've always thought the hook just grabs the player and leads him/her to the meat in the first place, and the meat is what makes him or her stay for the whole ride. The meat can be good without a hook, but it's less likely someone will find the meat without the hook, I think... And of course, when you're writing you really like, you want everyone to eat and enjoy the meat, right? I honestly don't see how that's insulting or pretentious...

Mmm. I guess my hook is someone's else's meat.

I still don't get what's so insulting, though... Is it the desire to make a game with novel-style writing? Or the perception good games have novel-style writing? Either way, I don't see what's so abhorrent about that...

...Mikan, try everything, and see what fits best. Oh, it's a shame none of us are telepathic, Then we'd know the tone of your game, and therefore be able to come up with the "best" possible candidates for an opening hook.
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#44 Post by Nicol Armarfi » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:51 pm

Having a hook at the beginning of the game simply justifies the need of readers who don't have an attention span long enough to enjoy a game that doesn't start with something insanely interesting or thought provoking from the beginning. If your writing style doesn't conform to that, I don't think you should force yourself to do it. It will most likely just end up being forced and possibly just cheesy.

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Re: No Boys Allowed! the game

#45 Post by Jake » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:59 pm

PyTom wrote:The guest above has a forum account
So MrSulu was right, then: Troll.
Server error: user 'Jake' not found

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