No way

[Mikan]

I'm hitting a bit of a snag with writing. I hope you guys can give me some advice.

Believe it or not, I've been spending the past few months writing and rewriting the beginning of the game.
I was writing it in second person for the first half of the year, which totally screwed me over since there's only so many good examples of second person writing (I couldn't find any GOOD examples, actually). So I changed to third person a few weeks ago, and out came the demo script in a matter of days after months of fidgeting with the script. oO;
It seems doable to write the game in third person, so let's ignore explaining why I wouldn't want to use a first person narrative for now.

The premise of the game is that Kirsi Girls Academy, a traditionally girls-only private high school, becomes a public co-ed school; Kirsi High School.
Somewhat as a test, they admit males into their incoming freshman class. The new freshman class is co-ed, but the junior and senior classes remain girls only. Among the few first males admitted to the school Is Nick, an "average" guy character, whom the player is supposed to empathize with if possible, but maybe I'll have him take on a personality of his own instead of borrowing a personality from the gamer... I haven't decided this yet.

I figure there's a few different ways I can start the game:
1. Follow Nick's morning routine and slowly allow his environment or his own dialogue (why is firefox 2 telling me I spelled dialogue wrong?) to introduce the game premise.
2. Show a flashback of a day in Nick's middle school to explain the game premise.
3. Have one or more of the girls talk to each other before the school year begins to introduce the game premise.
4. Have the narrator explain the school in a brief manner to give a feel of the game premise.
5. Have the narrator explain the schools in the city, and then concentrate on Nick's school to introduce the game premise.
6. Have the game begin with a news report that explains the game setting
7. Begin somewhere interesting in the game, ignoring any explanation of the setting or premise of the game. Setting and game premise are introduced or assumed as needed, usually through flashbacks.
8. Start the game with Nick already dating/as a friend with one of the girls. The game premise is explained through their dialogue.
9. Nick has a sister who is an upper classman in the school and they introduce the game premise through their dialogue. (but she will not be gettable).

Basically put, I can't make up my mind as to what's more important
1. Nick and his relationship with the girls (possibly with a first person narrative)
2. The girls themselves. Nick just happens to be at the right place at the right time often.
3. The school, its history, and its students. (constant reminder of out with the old, in with the new)
4. The city that all the classmates live in that is constantly expanding and rebuilding (as a metaphor to their growing bodies and relationships)

[Aenakume]

My advice isn't worth much, but the more opinions you have, the more picky you can be about which ones to ignore. ^_^;

I figure there's a few different ways I can start the game:
1. Follow Nick's morning routine and slowly allow his environment or his own dialogue (why is firefox 2 telling me I spelled dialogue wrong?) to introduce the game premise.
2. Show a flashback of a day in Nick's middle school to explain the game premise.
3. Have one or more of the girls talk to each other before the school year begins to introduce the game premise.
4. Have the narrator explain the school in a brief manner to give a feel of the game premise.
5. Have the narrator explain the schools in the city, and then concentrate on Nick's school to introduce the game premise.
6. Have the game begin with a news report that explains the game setting
7. Begin somewhere interesting in the game, ignoring any explanation of the setting or premise of the game. Setting and game premise are introduced or assumed as needed, usually through flashbacks.
8. Start the game with Nick already dating/as a friend with one of the girls. The game premise is explained through their dialogue.
9. Nick has a sister who is an upper classman in the school and they introduce the game premise through their dialogue. (but she will not be gettable).

Right off the top of my head, 4, 5 and 6 seem a little impersonal. Most of the other options allow you to add colour to the opening, by way of adding character perspectives to the unification. Like with 9, if you had Nick's sister talking sourly to Nick about the unification while Nick is ambivalent, you immediately give the impression that some people oppose the arrival of the boys. Or with 3 you could have two or more girls discussing it - with each representing a different perspective to how the girl students feel about the change... like one is excited that she will have boys in her class instead of it being all girls as she had feared, another might be disgusted, while another might be waxing philosophical about the march of progress (i'll get back to that one ^_-).

Between Nick and the girls, whose perspective on the unification is more important to the story? Does Nick have strong feelings about the unification? From his perspective, he doesn't really care much about the fact that the school was formerly all-girls, does he? To him, it's just a new school. What about the girls - do his classmates have strong feelings about the fact that the all-girls school they were supposed to be going into... isn't? Do the upper-years? Does their opinion matter to the story?

If it's the girls that are more put out by the change, and their opinions are going to impact on Nick, you could start with 3, 8 or 9. If Nick is really wired up about the change you could start with 1, 2, 8 or 9. If it's a bit of both, you could use 8 or 9. 7 would be neat if you can pull it off, but that might be tough to do well.

Basically put, I can't make up my mind as to what's more important
1. Nick and his relationship with the girls (possibly with a first person narrative)
2. The girls themselves. Nick just happens to be at the right place at the right time often.
3. The school, its history, and its students. (constant reminder of out with the old, in with the new)
4. The city that all the classmates live in that is constantly expanding and rebuilding (as a metaphor to their growing bodies and relationships)

i don't think these things are mutually exclusive. If Nick is poetically inclined, he could probably comment on 3 and 4 as part of his inner monologue while dealing with the girls' relationships with him (1), and with themselves (2). If he's not particularly insightful or philosophical, you could have one of the girls do it.

[mrsulu]

Hello! Late to thread. Just played demo.

Art is fantastic; love the tone and color of the images. You are a master.

The opening moments are slow. Let me give some specific advice.

I used to be a fiction editor for a magazine, so I know what it's like to read bad stories every single day. The most important thing I learned was this: The opening of your story must be something that makes you say, oh, man, I want to find out what happens, and those first few lines should immediately set expectations.

So, murder mysteries start with finding a dead body (death is always interesting). James Bond movies start with a mini-movie, a complete action set piece. Comedies start with lots of energy, like "Bring It On" starts with a loud musical number with dancing girls ending with Kirsten Dunst topless. News broadcasts don't lead off with the story about downtown zoning, even if that's important; they start with pictures of a house burning down. Get your audience on board first thing.

In a romance, I always think that the relationship is the most important. Say your story ends with a marriage: "The girl I loved---the girl I was going to marry. I met her that first morning." You've set a hook---this will end with a marriage, and we know it will be some girl we meet in the next few minutes, and you've introduced mystery. Show the back of a girl in a wedding dress, and if you want the sexy you add it slightly unbuttoned.

Waking up, introducing Nick, having him tie his tie badly---those are good character moments, but they're slow. Try starting with a girl. It's cliche, but starting with the pink-haired girl opening the door into him means the game starts with A) a girl, and B) injury. That's more interesting than waking up and getting dressed. Then the girl points out his mis-tied tie and his freshman badge (perhaps they are knocked askew in the accident), and we've managed to get Nick and her talking and providing backstory all at once.

To me, the backstory about the school is something easily introduced in the early few pages of the script, and not nearly as important as the relationships and your awesome art. Get to the awesome art fast, let the backstory dribble out.

If you need a draft editor, I'm willing to help.

[Mikan]

Thanks for the pointers mrsulu, I'll try to make the beginning a bit more "poppy".
I've been rewriting it over but I agree it's kind of boring.

[Guest]

lolwut

The advice, while technically sound, is also painfully generic. The most memorable examples in any medium tend to break away from conventions or carry them out in a fresh way, not resort to tired eroge cliches. What next, his little sister opens the door and goes "WAKE UP ONII-CHAN~!!!" and then falls off her bed to show a panty flash?

Opening with a main character's thoughts has been done before and it tends to work quite well. Rather than STARTING in the middle of something like a crappy Bret Easton Ellis the job can be done just as effectively if not more effectively by opening with the main character's thoughts. This is an eroge and eroge does not need action ramming you in the face from the opening paragraph. You can actually afford to take your time to set things up.

Only people with an incredibly short attention span are going to be so impatient as to be unwilling to sit through a page of exposition in the opening lines of the game.

I like that the main character wakes up and ties his tie improperly and then waxes on about his school. That shit is interesting and human, instead of having some woman open a door on him and then call him a moron and cause him to go "OH THAT'S RIGHT I TOTALLY FORGOT WHY I'M HERE THIS IS WHY <insert entire premise of game and plot here>"

[mrsulu]

I agree(d), the collision start is cliche. Eschewing cliche is good. It doesn't have to start with the collision.

The point is not whether a story should start with or without monologue, or with or without an explosion. The point is that the opening monologue in his sample turned out to be backstory, not story. Most of the information presented (Nick's class status, his relationship status, etc.) gets covered later anyhow, so the monologue, functionally, was duplicate. Easiest choice is to cut it and start later in the story.

Most writers who want to attract readers want to start with a hook. It's completely normal to write non-hook story beginnings, then go back later and cut away the fat until you are left with the hook. This script was still draft, and it was clear the hook wasn't up front. It has several dangling hooks in the first few pages of script: the art, the girls, the unique situation of the school, and the overarching theme of growth and change. It just wasn't honed yet.

There is a structuralist point to be made when not starting with a hook (see French new wave films of the 60s), but if you aren't trying to make that point, there's little reason not to put the important stuff first.

[Guest]

This is not a mystery thriller here, the "hook" in a dating sim = the backstory and the heroines, you don't need to hook the reader in the opening few lines. That is just pretentious.

Stop treating an eroge like it's a full length professional novel. Know your medium. This is almost insulting.

[Susu]

This is not a mystery thriller here, the "hook" in a dating sim = the backstory and the heroines, you don't need to hook the reader in the opening few lines. That is just pretentious.

Stop treating an eroge like it's a full length professional novel. Know your medium. This is almost insulting.

Honestly, I find what you're saying incredibly insulting...>>''
Did you even read what he wrote?
You do need a hook, cliche or not, at the beginning of stories.
I've stopped playing some vn's before, only because the intro had no hook, and bored me.
What you're saying makes it sound like eroge should be bad writing or something...<<''

[mrsulu]

This is not a mystery thriller here, the "hook" in a dating sim = the backstory and the heroines, you don't need to hook the reader in the opening few lines. That is just pretentious.

I don't think you're getting what I'm writing. I WANT him to start with his beautiful and interesting women. It's his best foot forward.

Mikan asked for help with his beginning. I was suggesting he focus on the strongest parts of his production for the beginning. I suggested he remove duplicate information to tighten up the start. This is not pretentious, or insulting, or whatever. It's what he asked us to do: critique the opening and brainstorm ways of making it better. We're working together.

Stop treating an eroge like it's a full length professional novel. Know your medium. This is almost insulting.

You seem somehow angry that I'm encouraging Mikan to have a strong and engaging start to his story. No, really, I believe openings of most stories should be strong and engaging, eroge or not, and I don't think I'm alone. You get some leeway in long-form work or for a famous author for a slow or wandering start, but the sooner you put out the hooks the better.

Enough. I'm out. Good luck, Mikan. Again, if you want another critique on the start once you get your new draft, I'm happy to help. You can PM me.

(Thanks, Susu!)

[musical74]

I'm going to agree with Susu and MrSulu here...

So it's a dating sim style. YOU STILL NEED A HOOK! When I reed a book, watch a movie, read a VN, whatever, I want some type of hook, otherwise I'm going to quit because of lack of interest. Most of the games here - certainly all the ones I've played, and that's about 2/3 of all the games - have some kind of hook that makes things interesting and makes me want to continue.

By giving the player a background it gives a *hook* and makes <most> people want to continue, because it's more than a "shallow" dating sim, which you find all too often in newgrounds. Just because it's a dating sim doesn't mean there doesn't need to be backstory.

[Guest]

I like how "it doesn't need a cheap gimmicky cliche hook in the first 10 lines" translates to "HURR DURR NO BACKSTORY AT ALL."

The cheapest VNs are the kind that utilize a shitty trick like having a girl open a door on your face in the opening 2 minutes because they don't have the story, so they have to make up for it with speed and art in order to cover for lack of substance.

Using flash-in-the-pan gimmicks like that in the start of a story is 90s-era at best. Shit is so OLD. This is 2008, you would have to have ADD to be incapable of reading 5 minutes in for an expository payoff.

[Jake]

I like how "it doesn't need a cheap gimmicky cliche hook in the first 10 lines" translates to "HURR DURR NO BACKSTORY AT ALL."

No, it's more the way you keep saying inane things like "Stop treating an eroge like it's a full length professional novel". I don't know about the other guys in this thread, but that statement right there was the one which caused me to presume that's what you meant.

"Professional novel" is a very broad description, and generally speaking the only characteristics you can draw from it is "not terribly short, and not badly-written". Not short because 'novels' are traditionally longer than 'novellas' which are longer than 'short stories'; not badly-written because 'professional' implies someone makes a living doing a thing, and it's hard to get published - let alone sell enough to live off - if you're crap at writing stories.

So reasonable people would read into that sentence that you think 'eroge' (I thought Mikan had previously said it wasn't going to be 'ero' at all, but maybe I'm forgetting an about-face) should either be short, or badly-written.

If it's short, then it's even more critical to get exposition, hook, etc over with early, because when you're writing short stories you literally cannot have any fat. There's no space for padding, there's no space for words which don't serve a purpose. Otherwise you just end up with a rambling incoherent mess - it's almost guaranteed. So rationally, you seem to be implying that eroges should be badly-written.

Using flash-in-the-pan gimmicks like that in the start of a story is 90s-era at best. Shit is so OLD.

And this just suggests that you don't know what people are talking about when they say 'hook'. It doesn't mean it has to start off exactly the same as the most clichéd, stereotyped piece of crap you can think of; it means that there has to be something near the beginning of the story to make the reader interested. If your target audience is mid-teen masturbators, then the little sister falling off the bed and showing her underwear is a good hook; if your target audience is locked-room mystery fans, then the discovery of a seemingly-impossible murder is a good hook. Without a hook, most people will stop reading pretty quickly; a story which opens with half an hour of day-to-day life has nothing there to convince the reader that continuing reading will be any more interesting than - say - going about their day-to-day life.

Sure, the occasional work without an early hook will turn out to be a stunning ground-breaking masterpiece. However, some works with an early hook will turn out to be stunning ground-breaking masterpieces as well, and most works without will turn out to be rambling pieces of crap.

Also:

This is 2008, you would have to have ADD to be incapable of reading 5 minutes in for an expository payoff.

Congratulations, you just described 90% of people.

(And honestly, it's not like literature was invented in 1995; the fact that it's 2008 has zero bearing on how good a story opener is. The panty-shot collision was crap in the nineties and it's still crap today... but the reason people use conventions like an early hook, and the reason they've used them for hundreds of years, is because they work.)

[PyTom]

One thing that's interesting is quickly starting a subplot, and using that to make things interesting while setting up one or more main plots. This is pretty much necessary for multipath games, as you basically can't introduce all the character-specific plots at the start of the game. So instead, you start up a subplot at the very start ("my dad sent me to this boarding school, will I survive?" "suddenly I have a new mother and sister", "wait? I'm supposed to manage an idol group?") and let that carry the game until you can get far enough in that you can start a girl-specific plot that will be the main plot of the game.

[mikey]

(And honestly, it's not like literature was invented in 1995; the fact that it's 2008 has zero bearing on how good a story opener is. The panty-shot collision was crap in the nineties and it's still crap today... but the reason people use conventions like an early hook, and the reason they've used them for hundreds of years, is because they work.)

Leo Tolstoy started Anna Karenina by plunging straight into the action - I remember our literature teacher pointing this out a few times. Here is how it starts:

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

Everything was in confusion in the Oblonskys' house. The wife had discovered that the husband was carrying on an intrigue with a French girl, who had been a governess in their family, and she had announced to her husband that she could not go on living in the same house with him. This position of affairs had now lasted three days, and not only the husband and wife themselves, but all the members of their family and household, were painfully conscious of it...

And I suppose there are many other examples of what theorists would later call "early hook", probably much earlier than 1877. And it's not like because Tolstoy or whoever "invented" the early hook, that this is something exclusive to him, and everyone else is an immitator. If Leo hadn't done it, someone else would and the early hook would still exist.

Writers can get inspired from storytelling techniqies, but in the end, they will have to write their own style, meaning what feels natural to them. It doesn't mean trying to invent their own spin on how a story should be told. It just means using the style through which they can express the most (given their culture, their lifestyle). Some writers need a completely new style and they develop their own, but some writers can express exactly what they want using stereotypes. So it doesn't necessarily mean stereotypes are bad. They can be just as good as the very avantgarde styles - but regardless of the style path the writer takes, it should always fit his personality. This way the writer can be happy and fully express himself - he shouldn't have to think about how his style fits into history, or that it's currently overused.

So... I would just say, that in essence, analysis of plot devices and their history is mostly for those who read, rather than those who write.

Of course you might say that the writer's job is also to reach the audience, so the audience may demand something from the author, but how that balance between the art aspect (personal fulfillment, means of expressing something) and entertainment aspect (reaching a certain audience) plays out in the end is a matter of personality, circumstances (financial, personal) and much more. But no matter how that balance will play out (are you Tom Clancy who uses cool storytelling methods and sells millions, or Jacques Dubois who writes abstract poems on his blog and no one has heard of you), one thing the writer must be is happy with how he does things - being honest to himself. Saying - I'm a ghost writer, but that's fine, I like it. Or - I had just one response to my poem, but that's just enough to make me happy. Or, of course - I'm looking forward to how people will react to the plot twist in my 8th novel, and let's hope it outsells Clancy.

[N0UGHTS]

Well, while those guys up there debate on which hooks are best and whatnot, I'll give you this:

• Try a monologue. Heck, even better, try a stream-of-consciousness thing. See if it works.
• Don't reveal too many details in the beginning. Give a base in the beginning, and let the rest of the story fill everything else in. Let the player discover things.
• Don't reveal all the characters all at once.
• Don't try to "cement" your characters in the beginning. Let the play discover the characters' quirks as he or she plays through the game.
• It seems that you don't know what the focus of your story should be about... How about the focus is determined by gameplay? Oh, and you should ask yourself this question:"What am I trying to show with this game? How high school changes people? How people are affected by sudden change? The experiences between the characters? What?"
• Try PyTom's idea! Sounds really cool.
• If you're thinking about it, I'm not sure foreshadowing the end will work...
• Hmm... How about you open up with a bunch of pictures? Like really really sketchy CGs of what might happen in school? So it's almost like a dream or something. And then, you start out in school, the situation gradually being grasped by the reader?

This is not a mystery thriller here, the "hook" in a dating sim = the backstory and the heroines, you don't need to hook the reader in the opening few lines. That is just pretentious.

Stop treating an eroge like it's a full length professional novel. Know your medium. This is almost insulting.

Well, this could be my inept social skills here speaking (didn't notice other people's facial expressions until what, Junior High? Mild, mild Asperger's? And surprisingly, I'm a good actor...), but:

I'm gonna sound like I do when I regress here. :p

What's insulting? Why? Hooks are pretentious in romance ADVs? But I thought ADVs focused on narrative, writing, and plot and stuff! Like actual books, except with pictures and sounds! And when you're writing something, aren't you supposed to make it interesting so people will actually read the rest of what you've written? Or are all my Language Arts teachers wrong...? [/end regression]

Man, it feels just like my junior high days. Regressing, somewhat understanding social situations, and waiting to be berated and rebuked. Bring it on!