"Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

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"Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#1 Post by fasteverything »

"Missing A"

working title. development blog is here.
GENRE: urban fantasy, mystery, romance, slice of life, action

LENGTH: unknown, maybe 15+ hours per route?

SYNOPSIS: Magic exists and unfortunately, it only adds to society's fear of the abnormal. Because of this, there are some places where people are friendly towards magic users, and places where they decidedly are not. Follow Karma's story as they return to their childhood town after ten years. Will you guide them into reconciling with old friends or making new ones? And what's the deal with the strange guy who's watching them so closely?

CHARACTERS:
  • Karma (main character) | 28 | unknown | unknown
    A traveler. They're honest, patient, and understanding. They also have powers that are both sought after and feared, so they make a point to use them only for good.
  • Haneul Park | late 30s | male | Korean-American
    One of the "Reapers" who are largely feared by the magical community. He's devoted to his job and he actively avoids developing attachments to others.
(characters below are largely underdeveloped at this point, they may or may not make it into "Missing A")
  • a multiracial (black + ? , still researching cultures, won't be + white) female gamer who's also really shy
  • a genderfluid person that has a less than ideal body type to pass as femme
  • a Native American (I'll need to do research on how tribes - not to mention I'll need to pick a tribe to begin with - view non-Native American magic and compare to their beliefs in spirituality. I'm hoping I'll be able to include them in this project, but we'll see...)
  • a childhood BFF (ethnicity undecided, apparently there's a lot of stereotypes around "the best friend" so I'm being careful at the moment)
and more to come!
PROGRESS: Uh... not much. I'll hold off on listing the things to do here until I've moved past plot and character development. Percentages that are at zero scares me.

Congratulations! If you've reached this part, that means you must really want to know what's updog with "Missing A." First thing first, "Missing A" is only a placeholder name.

BASICALLY! I'm hoping to create, quote, a visual novel that aims to be diverse and inclusive when it comes to gender identity, ethnicity, sexuality, and more. End quote. I was getting real tired of seeing visual novels that only had either an all-white cast, characters that have Perfect Bodies, oriented for one type of sexuality, or extremely stereotypical (and predictable, to me) characters. And so I wanted to contribute to diversity.

To make things less cluttered, I'll list features I want "Missing A" to have.
  • Almost everything about Karma (other than their personality, sexuality, speech pattern, and backstory) is left ambiguous so the reader could identify with them if they so wished. That includes gender identity, ethnicity, and physical appearance!
  • But how will Karma be able to romance characters who are only attracted to one gender? Glad you asked! There will be a gender identity selection screen with three choices: male, female, and non-binary (agender). And on the other side, there will be rows of preview icons of who you would be able to romance as you choose a specific gender for Karma. Whoever you can't romance will be dimmed.
    fasteverything wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I should clarify-- the gender identity selection screen is only a mechanism that will identify who you can or can't romance as certain genders. It wouldn't make sense if a male character who is only interested in other men is available for a female Karma to initiate a romance with.
  • Karma and the true route character are both pansexuals. So, it won't matter what gender you choose -- you will be able to get the true ending on any of them!
  • Speaking of the true route... it will be an unlockable. You will need to get around two or three different endings before you can choose the true route. Hopefully that will be something for the readers to look forward to.
  • "Missing A" is heavily inspired by Nitro+Chiral. Meaning there won't be any interactive games or schedules or anything of the sort. You just keep on reading and decide what choices Karma will go through and finish with either a good ending, a bad ending, or a true ending.
  • When it comes to routes, you can either have Karma kindle a romantic relationship or remain aromantic all throughout the story! The aromantic route will also have its' own good and bad ending. (And naturally, the true route will only have one ending.)
  • More unlockables I'm hoping to have are as follows: a gallery for all the CGs you've seen thus far, and an extra section that will have concept arts and special CGs. You can only unlock the extras of a character by completing their route.
  • The story will be split into chapters! This is for those who can't sit or read for very long.
  • Achievements! That's something I'm hoping I'll be able to implement as well. For example...
    • Wipe A Tear: You've unlocked your first bad ending. How sad!
    • There There: You've unlocked all of the bad endings. It's okay. Here's a broom to the shoulder.
    • Aces and Arrows: Made it through a playthrough without romancing anyone. (there will also be one for each characters)
    And so on!
If you have any questions, please ask! It'll help me refine ideas for "Missing A."
fasteverything wrote:
I will say this again: I don't want a thread about my project to evolve into a debate about how diversity should work.
Yes, it is a sensitive subject. No, I do not know better than you or anyone else. Culture is HUGE and I am only part of a handful. But what I am getting thus far is "I am of a minority group that doesn't match with what your characters are part of."

What I need is "I am of the same ethnicity as one (or more) of your characters. It is troubling how you handled this one aspect of them." Such things could be harmful portrayal of said ethnicity, lack of explanation or reasoning behind the character's traits, and so on. I will rectify this kind of mistake immediately. But as I have not revealed anything about any of my character other than their name, age, ethnicity, gender, and a very brief and untelling synopsis, I should not be getting this kind of concern. Yet.

I understand the caution one may have when reading through what I have pitched, but I have written pages upon pages in my notebook both about the plot and the characters. This is a bare-boned preview of what is to come. Please be patient.

I plan on asking for people of similar ethnicity and background to do sensitivity reading to ensure I have created a positive portrayal with the character in question.

I will not be under the impression that their portrayal will be perfect on the first try.

But I am working hard to make them well-rounded; Please do not assume I am not doing this. Especially after I have said such a thing several times.

I know what I should be doing.

I am not new to visual novels; Please do not assume this either. I am new only to this website and the language used in Ren'Py.

I do not claim that I am the first to create an inclusive and diverse visual novel (or media, for that matter). I want to contribute to the communities that wants a positive portrayal of their ethnicity, culture, sexuality, gender identity, personality type, body type, and/or disability. I want to contribute to breaking harmful stereotypes. That is my goal with "Missing A."

The major points of this visual novel are:
  • humans with magical powers
  • a variety of romanceable characters (& a choice to remain single)
  • an engaging story that transition between "ordinary" daily life, finding one's place in the world, and the true nature of magic
  • inclusive diversity of literally everything about a human being

That is all. Thank you for your time.
Last edited by fasteverything on Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#2 Post by Zelan »

Totally random and unhelpful thing, but the title made me think of "The Scarlet Letter" because we've been studying it in English. Since it's not (likely) a reference to The Scarlet Letter, what does the title actually mean? Nothing in the synopsis hints at it.
fasteverything wrote:a multiracial (black + ? , still researching cultures, won't be + white) female gamer who's also really shy
a genderfluid person that has a less than ideal body type to pass as femme
a Native American (I'll need to do research on how tribes - not to mention I'll need to pick a tribe to begin with - view non-Native American magic and compare to their beliefs in spirituality. I'm hoping I'll be able to include them in this project, but we'll see...)
Be cautious with this. Striving for diversity is an admirable cause, but even the most well-intentioned people can misrepresent a group.

Since we're already on the subject of diversity - make sure that your plot doesn't suffer. Looking at this post, it seems like you have put more thought into making your characters diverse and less into the actual plot. Sometimes, depending on your plot, having a diverse group just doesn't make sense. Bear with me here - I'm not trying to insult you or discourage you - but here is an example.

While the movie Brave focused on a female protagonist (and, if you choose to look at it that way, she could also be interpreted as asexual and/or aromantic), every single character was white. Think about this, though: the movie took place in the Dark Ages of Scotland. Most, if not all, of the people there WERE white, especially the royalty.

Depending on your setting, it may end up being perfectly reasonable (or even expected) for there to be characters of many different ethnicities, sexualities, gender identities, etc., but even then, it's pretty much impossible to include every single one of them, no matter how hard you try. If you focus too much on the diversity aspect, the final product could turn out underwhelming.
fasteverything wrote:a childhood BFF (ethnicity undecided, apparently there's a lot of stereotypes around "the best friend" so I'm being careful at the moment)
Why would having the best friend embody a stereotype be bad? I'm a little confused by this.
fasteverything wrote:Almost everything about Karma (other than their personality, sexuality, speech pattern, and backstory) is left ambiguous so the reader could identify with them if they so wished. That includes gender identity, ethnicity, and physical appearance!
This is a fantastic idea in theory, and I'm sure there are lots of people who would love it. The thing that I'm thinking of, though, is things like CG images. If Karma is never going to be pictured, all CGs will have to be from a first-person perspective. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of this. I don't think of my main character as "me," I think of my main character as someone else that I'm simply reading a story about. I like to be able to visualize that.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#3 Post by HeavyDevy-kun »

You do realize that most visual novels, your all white cast is really an all yellow cast :lol: If you ask me, we need more all-white casts more often! - https://youtu.be/NIgfiSzCy1o I'm just playing around.

But! That's because no one really cares what ethnicity people are as long as it's a good story so it's not that it's a bad thing. Just to point that out, but a story about diversity itself is kind of interesting. I'd be interested in trying it out. However, since it's basically about gender identity, this is a thing that a lot of people are not going to understand. I wonder how many people in the visual novel community know about the political rise of extreme LGBT, be careful about this. It's possible that there's a community for it but don't get your hopes up. Stuff like Yaoi and Yuri, the community is small but there is a community for it. I'm cool with gender identities just don't go overboard -_-. At least you're not using any of the really ridiculous gender identities I've seen.

So, on to the feedback, I'll start with the plot. A magic fantasy action story on modern Earth full of diversity plots is extremely weird. Normally in fantasy stories, you need to build your own world therefore cutting out the diversity and/or making up your own races if you wanted. An exception to modern Earth would be a Sci-Fi or at least adding Sci-Fi explaining your fantasy elements existing in 2065 or something. You'd be better off with a Sci-Fi and evolving superpowers or genetic mutations. And like you describe, its perfect for adding to the abnormality of society, contributing to your diversity plots.
fasteverything wrote:or extremely stereotypical (and predictable, to me) characters.
You just made an enemy of the whole visual novel community buddy! I'm joking. I thought the same way before but when I played visual novels, I kept trying to predict these stereotypical characters whenever I was like, "Oh, the shy girl," and failed every time because the story was so strong. Okay so lets take these stereotypical characters. What's some common features. The shy girl, the tsundere, kuudere, yandere, the gamer (Yes I've seen them), the sexy one, the strong one, the childish one, the list could go on. These are just personality types that can mix in with different interests and ways of thinking. I think you should expand a little more and read some more visual novels because they're not always stereotypical, not to mention these personality types can be mixed as well. I recommend Katawa Shoujo! But I admire your strive to create unique characters as you've succeeded so far. And a multiracial huh? Proud Caucasian and Asian right here! Maybe a Filipino with a strong traditional family relationship you could use eh?

Well there's my opinion on the idea, so that's all I got. Hope this was helpful in some way.
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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#4 Post by gekiganwing »

fasteverything wrote:SYNOPSIS: Magic exists and unfortunately, it only adds to society's fear of the abnormal. Because of this, there are some places where people are friendly towards magic users, and places where they decidedly are not.
That's an interesting way to start a speculative fiction / alternate history story. When did it become clear that magic is real? How did it affect the world? How has life changed in the years since then? Finally, are there people who are in denial about magic?

If it's appropriate for your story, then consider providing details about how magic will work in your fictional world. Think about reading the essay Sanderson's First Law.
fasteverything wrote: I'm hoping to create, quote, a visual novel that aims to be diverse and inclusive when it comes to gender identity, ethnicity, sexuality, and more.
I believe you'll benefit by making sure the characters are interesting people above all else. I think readers will find them to be compelling because of goals, interests, strengths, and other things which make them human. Why do I mention this? Because of Five Token Band related problems. There have been professionally written stories which featured a diverse group of characters... but unfortunately, their characterization was limited to a stereotype.
fasteverything wrote:"Missing A" is heavily inspired by Nitro+Chiral. Meaning there won't be any interactive games or schedules or anything of the sort. You just keep on reading and decide what choices Karma will go through and finish with either a good ending, a bad ending, or a true ending.
I understand that you might want to create a story with a lot of features. Just make sure you're prepared. If you haven't already finished (or published) a story, then keep in mind that it will require a lot of dedication, patience, and hard work. I guess this is a way of saying "Please avoid feature creep."

Off-topic:
I haven't bought or read any Nitro+Chiral VNs. However, I've purchased three of Nitroplus' VNs -- Phantom of Inferno, Song of Saya, and Steins;Gate. I didn't give PoI much of a chance, since I didn't like the DVD-ROM formatting which Hirameki International used. Haven't started SoS. I started reading the Playstation Vita version of S;G last year, but I didn't like how several early scenes occurred in bleak places with gray walls.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#5 Post by fasteverything »

Thank you, Zelan and HeavyDevy-kun, for giving me your two cents. It helped me remember some key points I've forgotten to put in the first post, so I'll go back and do just that shortly.

Zelan, as for the title, I think you would be interested in this:
fasteverything wrote:working title.
fasteverything wrote:First thing first, "Missing A" is only a placeholder name.
You must have missed it, but there's no hard feelings! Your concern for the plot is also touching. I will endeavor to ensure the plot won't suffer at all. Seeing as I plan to work on "Missing A" for a couple of years, I have confidence this will be achieved.
Zelan wrote:Be cautious with this. Striving for diversity is an admirable cause, but even the most well-intentioned people can misrepresent a group.
Despite being white, as an asexual, non-binary, and deaf person I know this well. I often feel disappointed and left out in many media. Which is why I'm researching each cultures along with disabilities, gender identities, and sexualities carefully before setting a character's traits and backstory into stone. It took me three days to find everything I can on Korean-Americans who had immigrant parents; It was a very interesting culture to learn about and it also brought me a little closer to my childhood friend, who is also Korean-American.

I also won't dare to represent a group that I am not a part of. I can only create a character of that group, and I will always ask for people of the same background to read it over to ensure I didn't screw anything up.
Zelan wrote:[...] it's pretty much impossible to include every single one of them, no matter how hard you try.
Oh, I know I will have to limit some things (such as character count) lest I get overwhelmed. But that doesn't mean I can't create more visual novels! What doesn't make the cut in "Missing A" might find their way into other projects.
Zelan wrote:
fasteverything wrote:a childhood BFF (ethnicity undecided, apparently there's a lot of stereotypes around "the best friend" so I'm being careful at the moment)
Why would having the best friend embody a stereotype be bad? I'm a little confused by this.
Within the media, the best friend is usually depicted as undesirable (loud, brash, sassy, weird, "ordinary"-looking, having an attitude, and so on) so the attention is shifted more onto the main character, who is often depicted as "the more attractive one." And if I choose an ethnicity other than Caucasian for the best friend, I may end up doing more harm than good, hence my caution. I know that to create a character that breaks through stereotypes, I must make them well-rounded and motivated, which is my goal for every one of them anyway! Nonetheless, I want to do as much research as possible beforehand.

And as for the CG scenes, I have that covered. (That is a link.) Their face won't ever be revealed in any one of them and remain shrouded in shadows. Their clothes will be layered and baggy to hide their "true" physical appearance. But what about the romance scenes? you may ask. Romance media doesn't have to have sex to be shown as romance. Hand holding, cheek smooches, hugging, and taking care of the other all work just as well!

I'm sorry that you're not a fan of my idea. Thanks for stopping by.

And HeavyDevy-kun, playing around or not, that is still a very harmful thing to say. If I recall, Cowboy Bebop was an anime that wasn't entirely composed of Eastern Asian characters.

I promise you this: those of a minority group will care about diversity. I know I do.
HeavyDevy-kun wrote:However, since it's basically about gender identity, this is a thing that a lot of people are not going to understand.
Oh, I'm sorry. I should clarify-- the gender identity selection screen is only a mechanism that will identify who you can or can't romance as certain genders. It wouldn't make sense if a male character who is only interested in other men is available for a female Karma to initiate a romance with. I really should add this to the first post. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Methinks thou art biased. It was interesting to hear your input about going into a different direction from urban fantasy (as I've realized it's actually that and not modern) into science fiction, but I've already decided on the genre, the plot, and the classification of powers. I won't be changing my mind, but don't worry! I'm steadily working on the whole concept of how magic came to be. I'm just not showing my cards just yet, not until I'm sure of what I want to confirm.
HeavyDevy-kun wrote:
fasteverything wrote:or extremely stereotypical (and predictable, to me) characters.
You just made an enemy of the whole visual novel community buddy!
Oh, I don't mean to insult the community. What I was speaking of, are actually the otome games I keep finding through my phone's store app. I've only first heard of this website and the community within a few days ago. The visual novels I've seen thus far on this site are all wonderfully made and I plan on playing as many as possible! I'm a huge fan of Dobrogneva, myself.

And what I meant by stereotypical characters is the fact that, with the otome games, there isn't much regarding... backstory and personality. It's small and short and all the traits a character may have just make them feel... flat to me. I love exploring a character's relationships with their loved ones along with their backstory and I aim to do just that in "Missing A."

Thank you for your admiration!

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#6 Post by fasteverything »

gekiganwing! I hadn't realized you posted a reply to this thread. Thank you for checking out my idea.

And thank you for the link to the essay! I'm currently more focused on creating characters than world & magic cohabitation, so I really appreciate this.

I'm also aware of token characters. I don't plan on slapping traits on them and call it a job well done. I wish I could tell you all that I've planned for Haneul Park, but he's... so very fleshed out, I have no idea what could be considered a spoiler. I love learning about a character without having read a synopsis about them beforehand, so this is all on me. Sorry! Hopefully you'll still be around by the time I figure out just what to reveal without giving everything away.

And don't worry! As I'm plotting and developing, I'm actually also working on a small mockup of a visual novel (of which you can see a brief video of right here) on the side as a learning experience so I would be as prepared as I could be by the time I tackle "Missing A." It also helps that I've got three years of experience with coding, haha!

Again, thank you for checking out "Missing A."

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#7 Post by HeavyDevy-kun »

fasteverything wrote:And HeavyDevy-kun, playing around or not, that is still a very harmful thing to say. If I recall, Cowboy Bebop was an anime that wasn't entirely composed of Eastern Asian characters.

I promise you this: those of a minority group will care about diversity. I know I do.
I'm a minority. Bisexual Biracial Filipino and Caucasian living in America, raised by mostly Filipinos because he was outcast by his drugged dad, and has a hard time understanding physical attraction and has struggled with numerous amounts of depression and suicide thoughts in the past.

I love diversity myself but my reason? I view people as people. There are good and bad people. If a cast is all white, all black, all Asian, or mixed, whatever, it doesn't mean its bad. I'll just let Morgan Freeman clear this up, one of my high school idols. - https://youtu.be/I3cGfrExozQ

So you say the anime Cowboy Bepop, when I was talking about Visual Novels, clearly stated above. But even then, most anime and visual novels, are Japanese, but I'm not saying all of them. Most does not mean all. Its just truth since you stated: "I was getting real tired of seeing visual novels that only had either an all-white cast." - this is false. They're not white, white is Caucasian, which is anything from Europe. Is it bad that they're mostly Japanese? Not really because people are people.
fasteverything wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I should clarify-- the gender identity selection screen is only a mechanism that will identify who you can or can't romance as certain genders. It wouldn't make sense if a male character who is only interested in other men is available for a female Karma to initiate a romance with. I really should add this to the first post. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Well...that's not what I meant but okay ^-^. Glad I could be of service.
fasteverything wrote:Methinks thou art biased. It was interesting to hear your input about going into a different direction from urban fantasy (as I've realized it's actually that and not modern) into science fiction, but I've already decided on the genre, the plot, and the classification of powers. I won't be changing my mind, but don't worry! I'm steadily working on the whole concept of how magic came to be. I'm just not showing my cards just yet, not until I'm sure of what I want to confirm.
Ha! I guess it was just because its hard to imagine powerful wizards and witches roaming the streets of downtown LA. Come on, that would be pretty hilarious! Maybe I need a picture. Anyway, I guess I could be wrong. Hey! A Celtic and Pagan inspired theme might be nice. It has some pretty beautiful scenery. Or maybe don't make them so powerful it becomes Lord of the Rings, and instead use regular spells based off of Pagan or Wiccan culture. In other words, religious culture could be a good inspiration to the magical part. I'm not saying add religion, just inspired by it. Use the action as more of a physical confrontation instead of magical. Just another few suggestions.
fasteverything wrote:Oh, I don't mean to insult the community. What I was speaking of, are actually the otome games I keep finding through my phone's store app. I've only first heard of this website and the community within a few days ago. The visual novels I've seen thus far on this site are all wonderfully made and I plan on playing as many as possible! I'm a huge fan of Dobrogneva, myself.

And what I meant by stereotypical characters is the fact that, with the otome games, there isn't much regarding... backstory and personality. It's small and short and all the traits a character may have just make them feel... flat to me. I love exploring a character's relationships with their loved ones along with their backstory and I aim to do just that in "Missing A."
It was a joke. Chillax :lol: clearly stated as a joke in the next sentence too. I can't speak for the whole community, that would be impossible. And the phone app might be the explanation to the problem! Not that it's a bad thing, but in order to really understand visual novels, the ones that the big companies make have the best stories possible and is where I take my inspiration from. In visual novels, a person should know that character development, back stories, and strong, relatable personalities are the most important thing. I recommend Amnesia Memories if you like Otome, it's so deep! That one and Alistair++ are the only one's I've done in the Otome and they were okay. Amnesia Memories was the best though.
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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#8 Post by fasteverything »

This is starting to turn into more of a debate regarding diversity than discussing or asking about the concept and plot of "Missing A" itself. We all have our opinions. I want to create a visual novel with characters of all types, that is all.

And thank you for your suggestions once more. I'll keep those in mind in case my original ideas doesn't work out for whatever reason, but I have a strong feeling it won't come to that. I've got a lot of good things planned. Stick around!
Last edited by fasteverything on Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#9 Post by LizardRobot »

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but... I feel obliged to point out you're getting very defensive about things that weren't posted in argument, but were intended constructively. You seem to be going out of your way to be offended by people's replies. People are raising legitimate concerns and taking the time to offer their feedback, but to every one you seem to be saying, "I know better than you." (Frankly, I wish my game inspired this kind of lively debate! You're very lucky to have so many people interested in what you're doing.)

I don't think I stand alone when I say to most VN players (myself included), character is everything. You have described your characters by what they are rather than who they are, and as a result you have several people very wary of what you are presenting as your game's cast. They read like a laundry list rather than a set of people. You also describe a process of picking these diversity goals (sort of a quota?), then figuring out who the characters are based on research. In my opinion, that's the reverse of how great characters are made. Great characters start with emotions and behavior. What motivates those emotions and behavior is something you can expand upon through research, but figuring out your characters during research is an easy way to fall into stereotypes.

If this thread has turned into a debate on diversity, it's because that's how you are defining your game and most of what you are talking about in your game description, and where you seem to want to take the conversation yourself. If you want the discussion to turn to other aspects of the game, I would suggest not keeping information on characters and plot so close to your chest that people can't comment on it. Share and talk about the parts of your game that aren't just about the cause of diversity! Then people can talk about those things instead.

It also feels like you are being a bit dismissive of the community of VN developers on this site when you state how your game is going to be different from others because of its inclusivity/diversity. A lot of people on this site have made or are currently games that are very diverse. Just on the first page of the WIPs forum I saw these games in development: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 When you describe your game like it's the first diversity-oriented VN, it's kind of picking a fight before you've even met anyone.

Also, this:
"Missing A" is heavily inspired by Nitro+Chiral. Meaning there won't be any interactive games or schedules or anything of the sort. You just keep on reading and decide what choices Karma will go through and finish with either a good ending, a bad ending, or a true ending.
This describes most VNs? Interactive games and scheduling are definitely not classic hallmarks of visual novels. It compounds the sense that you aren't very familiar with this game type and the games your fellow devs and aspiring devs have made. I would definitely suggest spending a few days browsing and playing some of the games around here: Demos & Betas, Completed Games. Or just bounce around itch.io for a while, downloading any free VNs you can!

It's wonderful to have an idea and embark upon the journey of making your first game, but it's important to understand the arena you're entering, too.

That's about the sum of it, I guess. Good luck with your project!

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#10 Post by fasteverything »

I will say this again: I don't want a thread about my project to evolve into a debate about how diversity should work.
Yes, it is a sensitive subject. No, I do not know better than you or anyone else. Culture is HUGE and I am only part of a handful. But what I am getting thus far is "I am of a minority group that doesn't match with what your characters are part of."

What I need is "I am of the same ethnicity as one (or more) of your characters. It is troubling how you handled this one aspect of them." Such things could be harmful portrayal of said ethnicity, lack of explanation or reasoning behind the character's traits, and so on. I will rectify this kind of mistake immediately. But as I have not revealed anything about any of my character other than their name, age, ethnicity, gender, and a very brief and untelling synopsis, I should not be getting this kind of concern. Yet.

I understand the caution one may have when reading through what I have pitched, but I have written pages upon pages in my notebook both about the plot and the characters. This is a bare-boned preview of what is to come. Please be patient.

I plan on asking for people of similar ethnicity and background to do sensitivity reading to ensure I have created a positive portrayal with the character in question.

I will not be under the impression that their portrayal will be perfect on the first try.

But I am working hard to make them well-rounded; Please do not assume I am not doing this. Especially after I have said such a thing several times.

I know what I should be doing.

I am not new to visual novels; Please do not assume this either. I am new only to this website and the language used in Ren'Py.

I do not claim that I am the first to create an inclusive and diverse visual novel (or media, for that matter). I want to contribute to the communities that wants a positive portrayal of their ethnicity, culture, sexuality, gender identity, personality type, body type, and/or disability. I want to contribute to breaking harmful stereotypes. That is my goal with "Missing A."

The major points of this visual novel are:
  • humans with magical powers
  • a variety of romanceable characters (& a choice to remain single)
  • an engaging story that transition between "ordinary" daily life, finding one's place in the world, and the true nature of magic
  • inclusive diversity of literally everything about a human being

That is all. Thank you for your time.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#11 Post by HeavyDevy-kun »

fasteverything wrote:
I will say this again: I don't want a thread about my project to evolve into a debate about how diversity should work.
Hey whoa! We don't need big bold letters. Lizard Robot just stated his opinion. It's how people grow. I wish I could get this amount of criticism myself. But, it's your idea, so I won't go on further about this project in any way. I sincerely wish you the best bud!
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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#12 Post by Zelan »

fasteverything wrote:Zelan, as for the title, I think you would be interested in this:
fasteverything wrote:working title.
fasteverything wrote:First thing first, "Missing A" is only a placeholder name.
You must have missed it, but there's no hard feelings!
I saw it. But usually a working title has at least some relevance to the plot. I was curious about it.
fasteverything wrote:
Zelan wrote:
fasteverything wrote:a childhood BFF (ethnicity undecided, apparently there's a lot of stereotypes around "the best friend" so I'm being careful at the moment)
Why would having the best friend embody a stereotype be bad? I'm a little confused by this.
Within the media, the best friend is usually depicted as undesirable (loud, brash, sassy, weird, "ordinary"-looking, having an attitude, and so on) so the attention is shifted more onto the main character, who is often depicted as "the more attractive one." And if I choose an ethnicity other than Caucasian for the best friend, I may end up doing more harm than good, hence my caution. I know that to create a character that breaks through stereotypes, I must make them well-rounded and motivated, which is my goal for every one of them anyway! Nonetheless, I want to do as much research as possible beforehand.
Wait, really? Huh, either we're consuming very different media or I just haven't been paying enough attention to the best friend characters, but I didn't realize that was a stereotype that was common.

Now that you've brought this up, though: Don't be afraid to make an antagonist or otherwise negative character someone other than a straight Caucasian. I understand that you're going for a positive representation of different races, but everyone has a flaw. Consider this: instead of avoiding giving your characters any flaws at all, give them flaws that aren't stereotypical and maybe even subvert the stereotype entirely. (This is a really bad example, and I'm not even sure it's really a stereotype, but bear with me here.) So maybe there's a stereotype that Chinese people are sneaky and underhanded (I think I've heard this before?). So you've got your Chinese character - let's go ahead and say she's a courageous warrior, extremely hardworking and very honorable. All good qualities, right? These qualities also go against that stereotype. Here are her negative aspects: she's honest - overly honest, to the point where she can be abrasive - and also hot-headed; she sometimes starts fighting before letting everything be talked out peacefully. Now the character is dynamic and interesting - flawed, but still likable and a good hero - and also does not portray any stereotypes (at least, none that I'm aware of).

In the end, it's your choice on everything, of course, but casting straight white cis males as antagonists is starting to get its own backlash. (Although, once we get to that point, there's really no pleasing anyone. :/ So, seriously, I wish you luck in creating antagonists that don't make someone angry.) That being said, Haneul seems pretty antagonistic, and he's Korean-American, so it seems like you haven't fallen into this trap.
fasteverything wrote:And as for the CG scenes, I have that covered. (That is a link.) Their face won't ever be revealed in any one of them and remain shrouded in shadows. Their clothes will be layered and baggy to hide their "true" physical appearance. But what about the romance scenes? you may ask. Romance media doesn't have to have sex to be shown as romance. Hand holding, cheek smooches, hugging, and taking care of the other all work just as well!
Ohhhhh, that makes a lot more sense! I had assumed that you were going to use first-person CGs only, meaning that anything romantic would be reduced to a close-up of the love interest's adoring face (or something along those lines, anyway). I think it would be useful for other readers to clarify that in the opening post - what it seemed like was that Karma would not be visible in the CGs at ALL.

And hey, please don't jump to conclusions about what I think consists of a romance scene. I personally don't play H-games unless the story is really worth it . I've only ever played 4 visual novels with sex scenes, and of those 4 I used the mature filter for the three that had one available. While I'm not going to lie and say that I dislike sexual content, it's never something that I expect in a romance VN and I adore cute things like the ones you listed (especially cheek smooching <3).

This bit in particular was what I was talking about when I said I wasn't a fan, not the entire VN itself - I quite like what I see, actually.
fasteverything wrote:Thanks for stopping by.
Then I opened up the door and said "Take care, guy!"

-----

LizardRobot, I agree with some of the points that you're making, but I also think that you're being a little unfair to fasteverything in some respects.
LizardRobot wrote:I wasn't going to post in this thread, but... I feel obliged to point out you're getting very defensive about things that weren't posted in argument, but were intended constructively.
I do feel that you're getting a bit defensive with some of us. Like I mentioned above, you assumed that what I meant when I raised a concern about the CGs was that I thought "but where r teh sexytimez!?!" when that was as far from what I was thinking as you could get. Your responses feel like you posted this expecting to be attacked, when really what everyone is trying to do is help you make your VN the best it can possibly be. (On the other hand, I made a few assumptions of my own, so we're both at fault here.) However, I also feel that you're annoyed with the direction that this thread is going in, which is completely reasonable - you want feedback on your plot, not on the concept of diversity. (And, I apologize, since that's all I've even given you thus far.) It's easy to see why that is the direction that this thread has gone in, though - the majority of your post is dedicated to the ideals for diversity that you have for your project.
LizardRobot wrote:I don't think I stand alone when I say to most VN players (myself included), character is everything. You have described your characters by what they are rather than who they are, and as a result you have several people very wary of what you are presenting as your game's cast. They read like a laundry list rather than a set of people. You also describe a process of picking these diversity goals (sort of a quota?), then figuring out who the characters are based on research. In my opinion, that's the reverse of how great characters are made. Great characters start with emotions and behavior. What motivates those emotions and behavior is something you can expand upon through research, but figuring out your characters during research is an easy way to fall into stereotypes.
This sums up my thoughts pretty nicely. Research is all well and good, but you don't have to stick to that research without deviating at all. It's natural for people to grow and develop differently based on their environments - for example, I had a friend in elementary school who was Korean, but was adopted by a Jewish family. She came to America as a very young child (maybe even a baby?), and o the best of my knowledge didn't even know any Korean. In short, she was more in touch with Jewish culture(?) than Korean culture despite her ethnicity.
LizardRobot wrote:If this thread has turned into a debate on diversity, it's because that's how you are defining your game and most of what you are talking about in your game description, and where you seem to want to take the conversation yourself. If you want the discussion to turn to other aspects of the game, I would suggest not keeping information on characters and plot so close to your chest that people can't comment on it. Share and talk about the parts of your game that aren't just about the cause of diversity! Then people can talk about those things instead.
I partially agree with this bit, but I think the reason that there isn't much other information given to us is because fasteverything hasn't come up with every character yet. c: If I'm understanding the situation right, there's simply no other information to give.
LizardRobot wrote:Also, this:
"Missing A" is heavily inspired by Nitro+Chiral. Meaning there won't be any interactive games or schedules or anything of the sort. You just keep on reading and decide what choices Karma will go through and finish with either a good ending, a bad ending, or a true ending.
This describes most VNs? Interactive games and scheduling are definitely not classic hallmarks of visual novels. It compounds the sense that you aren't very familiar with this game type and the games your fellow devs and aspiring devs have made. I would definitely suggest spending a few days browsing and playing some of the games around here: Demos & Betas, Completed Games. Or just bounce around itch.io for a while, downloading any free VNs you can!
This is the part where I feel you are being the harshest against fasteverything. I'm by no means an expert in visual novels, so I could be entirely wrong, but I think that a good amount of triple A VNs are actually VN hybrids, so it's easy to see where that confusion could come from. Even when talking about just games on LemmaSoft, there are VNs on here with gameplay elements. Plus, fasteverything never claimed that the VN was special or different because of this. I think it's really just a (roundabout, admittedly) way of saying "This VN does not have any gameplay."

-----

Now that all of that is said (hopefully you're still with me, fasteverything, I know this is a ridiculously long post), I'll try and address everything else besides the diversity conversation, as I know that's the direction that you want this topic to go. (I admit that I neglected all of this in my original post as I was too preoccupied with what seemed to be the most important point to me.)
fasteverything wrote:LENGTH: unknown, maybe 15+ hours per route?
Just in case you don't realize how long this is - that's, like, 150,000 words per route, maybe even more just for the initial 15. Don't get me wrong, I would probably cry tears of pure joy if someone wrote a VN this long (cuz holy eff I love reading), but it's a hell of a lot of work for one person.
fasteverything wrote:Magic exists and unfortunately, it only adds to society's fear of the abnormal. Because of this, there are some places where people are friendly towards magic users, and places where they decidedly are not.
I'm curious as to which places there are more of. "Society's fear" makes me think that there are a lot more dangerous places for magic users than there are safe havens, but I'd love a more definitive answer on this.

I can't really say much else on your planned characters and plot because there's so little information, but I'll keep my eyes peeled for any updates.

Since this was actually forgotten in my original post - be careful with how you go about the true ending. A lot of VN fans, at least on this forum, dislike being told that one ending is the "real" one, especially if it doesn't include their favorite characters. There are a lot of people who prefer all endings to be equally canon. However, true endings can also work very well. My go-to example for a brilliant true ending has always been Taarradhin. (I would highly suggest that you click that link and play it - I adore this game and I think that you would really like it as well. ^_^ Pay attention to how the true ending is done, but enjoy the story itself, too.) Based on your synopsis, a true ending like this probably wouldn't work, but it's still something to think about.
fasteverything wrote:More unlockables I'm hoping to have are as follows: a gallery for all the CGs you've seen thus far, and an extra section that will have concept arts and special CGs. You can only unlock the extras of a character by completing their route.
CG Galleries are starting to become more and more of an expected feature and less of a bonus thing, so I would definitely recommend trying to include that. Concept art galleries are something that I only see infrequently but I looove. (One great example is Starlit Flowers, which is a KN. I think you'd like this one as well.) I don't know about anyone else, but I, for one, would be very happy if you were able to implement a concept art gallery. (Something that is sometimes done in place of coding the concept art gallery into the VN is an artbook. It can be free or paid, but it's usually downloaded separately from the game itself and contains basically what you described - concept art and WIPs for sprites, backgrounds, and CGs, as well as sometimes having bonus art or even fan art, often with blurbs alongside each piece.)
fasteverything wrote:Achievements! That's something I'm hoping I'll be able to implement as well. For example...
Wipe A Tear: You've unlocked your first bad ending. How sad!
There There: You've unlocked all of the bad endings. It's okay. Here's a broom to the shoulder.
Aces and Arrows: Made it through a playthrough without romancing anyone. (there will also be one for each characters)
HYPEEEE

(I love achievements.)

when you spend an hour and a half writing a post instead of doing your homework <:

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#13 Post by fasteverything »

Zelan, I certainly don't mind reading a long post!

I misunderstood you at first about the working title. Apologies. It's actually a joke. It goes like this: My name is Van. Visual novels are abbreviated as VNs. Hence, "Missing A." It's a silly thing, but I needed to name this project something other than "hey, you know that one visual novel that will be inclusive and figuratively magical?" Titles don't come easily to me, so I'm waiting on this until I flesh out the plot more fully.
Zelan wrote:I understand that you're going for a positive representation of different races, but everyone has a flaw.
I didn't mean positive representation as "everybody is a good person and also perfect." It's more like I want to create characters that aren't flawed "just because." That's what I want to avoid doing. And deviations are what I'm all about, what "Missing A" is about.

It's true you guys were trying to help, I recognize and appreciate that. I also realize that since there's so little content on the plot and characters, the rest were all you guys could help with. Nonetheless, I wanted to end a discussion that I am intimately familiar with before it spirals out of control.
Zelan wrote:I think it's really just a (roundabout, admittedly) way of saying "This VN does not have any gameplay."
That was what I meant! I'm glad you understand. I've seen a lot of visual novels with interactive features and so I wanted to make things clear from the start that my project will be plain, in case that isn't your thing.
Zelan wrote:
fasteverything wrote:LENGTH: unknown, maybe 15+ hours per route?
Just in case you don't realize how long this is - that's, like, 150,000 words per route, maybe even more just for the initial 15. Don't get me wrong, I would probably cry tears of pure joy if someone wrote a VN this long (cuz holy eff I love reading), but it's a hell of a lot of work for one person.
Oh my, I hadn't realized. I haven't gotten in time to play other visual novels lately in-between plotting and developing and drawing and learning Python, so I couldn't give a more accurate estimate. I also may have added a few hours there because I'm a ridiculously fast reader. (To give you an idea of just how fast I am, I read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows in less than eighteen hours.) It is a lot of work, but if there's anything I love to do... it's writing. Both code and creatively. Perhaps it would be more or less seven hours per route? Maybe? I honestly have no idea at the moment, and I probably won't until I finish plotting.

Thank you for letting me know of this!
Zelan wrote:I'm curious as to which places there are more of. "Society's fear" makes me think that there are a lot more dangerous places for magic users than there are safe havens, but I'd love a more definitive answer on this.
There are certainly more aggressive cities than safe cities for magic users, but there are still places where magic users are accepted by non-magical users. Some people avoid these places because of the large count of magic users in one place.

Imagine meeting a person who could create fire. You are both stranded in a cabin during a snowstorm. They light a bonfire easily enough, and it's certainly helpful in a situation like this! But... if they are in a city, and someone sees them barbecuing steak because the stove is on the fritz again, that someone could jump to conclusions such as "what if they sneeze and set the building on fire?" (An extreme example, I know, but sometimes fear make some people irrational.) Because fire can't possibly help anyone, right? It burns and destroys.

(... and gives you light, warmth, and cooked meals.)

Rather to cause unnecessary panic, some magic users may find themselves hiding away their "destructive"-like powers. Some may also be afraid of being hunted down by extremists. Some are hunted down by extremists, and no, not by the "Reapers."

Both sides are afraid of each other. One side because they're misinformed, and the other because they are being discriminated of having something they were born with.

And another example, one I hope would interest you, is... what about powers that overall does more good than harm? What about nature powers? Suppose there's a person capable of growing plants on the spot. Extremely helpful if one wants to make Earth green, or even regrow an entire forest... but what's to say they're not capable of strangling someone with vines? Destroy buildings with overgrown roots? All for pettiness or revenge.

Most, if not all, powers have multiple facets to it. More to this will be explored in "Missing A!"

And I suppose I could also add a few things about the "Reapers" since they're a concept that's part of the world, not a vital part of individual story telling. They are magic users who have taken the responsibility to hunt down those who largely abuse their powers. Imagine a pyrokinetic arsonist. An invisible stalker or murderer. A bank robber who's able to hypnotize the teller by humming. That's some scary stuff. The "Reapers" have no specialized prison, and regular ones doesn't have the means to suppress magical powers. Not to mention regular cops could be easily wiped out when faced with certain powers.

So, for the "Reapers" and the sake of everybody's safety, death is the only best option.

The true route... At least for "Missing A," I see it as a situation that lies most true to Karma's morals and life goals. I'll still check out Taarradhin (along with Starlit Flowers) when I get the time to do so! It looks really interesting and maybe it'll help me out with this as well.
Zelan wrote:HYPEEEE

(I love achievements.)
So do I!

... this took me way longer than expected. I keep editing out potential spoilers. Sorry for the wait!

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#14 Post by Zelan »

fasteverything wrote:I misunderstood you at first about the working title. Apologies. It's actually a joke. It goes like this: My name is Van. Visual novels are abbreviated as VNs. Hence, "Missing A." It's a silly thing, but I needed to name this project something other than "hey, you know that one visual novel that will be inclusive and figuratively magical?" Titles don't come easily to me, so I'm waiting on this until I flesh out the plot more fully.
Ahhh, gotcha. cx At least your working titles are catchier than mine. I have two ideas brewing that go by the names of "Cat Thing" and "Airplane Thing." Be careful you don't take too long coming up with your title, though - this one might stick, and then you'll have to shoehorn it into the plot somehow. cx
fasteverything wrote:Both sides are afraid of each other. One side because they're misinformed, and the other because they are being discriminated of having something they were born with.

And another example, one I hope would interest you, is... what about powers that overall does more good than harm? What about nature powers? Suppose there's a person capable of growing plants on the spot. Extremely helpful if one wants to make Earth green, or even regrow an entire forest... but what's to say they're not capable of strangling someone with vines? Destroy buildings with overgrown roots? All for pettiness or revenge.

Most, if not all, powers have multiple facets to it. More to this will be explored in "Missing A!"
I'm sure you've already thought of all of this, but I'll put it out there anyway.

It would be cool if you had a character/characters who had powers and did use them for evil, to show off the other side of the magical society and those dangers. Alternatively, if you'd rather focus more on the characters who have powers and use them for good, but still manage to create conflict, you could have a collateral damage sort of plot (something like The Incredibles or Captain America: Civil War).

It would also be nice to see a character who was previously prejudiced against those with powers, but changes opinions at some point. The easiest/most cliché way would be for the character to be rescued by some powered people, but you could also go with a more gradual change (character development ahoy!)

Now that I've brought up the unpowered people - will any important characters (romanceable or not) be characters without powers?
fasteverything wrote:And I suppose I could also add a few things about the "Reapers" since they're a concept that's part of the world, not a vital part of individual story telling. They are magic users who have taken the responsibility to hunt down those who largely abuse their powers. Imagine a pyrokinetic arsonist. An invisible stalker or murderer. A bank robber who's able to hypnotize the teller by humming. That's some scary stuff. The "Reapers" have no specialized prison, and regular ones doesn't have the means to suppress magical powers. Not to mention regular cops could be easily wiped out when faced with certain powers.

So, for the "Reapers" and the sake of everybody's safety, death is the only best option.
Oooh, these guys sound really interesting. :o I'm curious as to what the people who fear powered people think of the Reapers. I could see it happening a couple ways: either they think the Reapers are just as bad as any others with powers and cite them as examples of dangerous powered people, or they see them as tentative allies in the "battle" against the powered people. Most likely, public sentiment would be a mixture of both, and maybe other opinions thrown in to boot.
fasteverything wrote:The true route... At least for "Missing A," I see it as a situation that lies most true to Karma's morals and life goals. I'll still check out Taarradhin (along with Starlit Flowers) when I get the time to do so! It looks really interesting and maybe it'll help me out with this as well.
Hmm, okay. That's a good take on true routes. ^_^ I guess my only other piece of advice there would be to try and include the other love interests as much as possible without forcing them in where they don't belong. Obviously, the main focus will be on the true route's romance able character, but the others can still play supporting roles and be great characters. I say this because there are SO MANY visual novels that will sort of forget about the other romance able characters as soon as the player gets on a route. Depending on the story, this sometimes makes perfect sense (and can also be made up for by cool side characters), but other times it's just weird. (A lot of those high school tomes, for example, have the MC never run into the other guys again, even though she goes to the same school as they do.)

Sorry about the mini-rant up there, but discarded love interests/side characters is probably one of my biggest pet peeves in VNs. -_-

Anyway, if you do get the time to play either/both of those VNs, I would love it if you'd PM me about what you thought! I enjoy discussing what I've played with others, even if our opinions on them are different (makes the conversation more interesting).

Lastly, I can't believe that I hadn't mentioned this until now, but you might be interested in checking out another VN which features a protagonist who is never shown and whose gender identity can be chosen by the player, A Foretold Affair. (Sorry, I know you're trying to work on your own project and I just keep on giving you more things to play. cx) It's only a demo as of now, but I think it's very well done so far.

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Re: "Missing A" [magic, romance, inclusive]

#15 Post by fasteverything »

Zelan wrote:Now that I've brought up the unpowered people - will any important characters (romanceable or not) be characters without powers?
Oh yes, definitely! As of the moment, there's only two characters with magic powers -- Karma and Haneul. The others in development are still undecided.
Zelan wrote:I guess my only other piece of advice there would be to try and include the other love interests as much as possible without forcing them in where they don't belong. Obviously, the main focus will be on the true route's romance able character, but the others can still play supporting roles and be great characters. I say this because there are SO MANY visual novels that will sort of forget about the other romance able characters as soon as the player gets on a route. Depending on the story, this sometimes makes perfect sense (and can also be made up for by cool side characters), but other times it's just weird. (A lot of those high school tomes, for example, have the MC never run into the other guys again, even though she goes to the same school as they do.)

Sorry about the mini-rant up there, but discarded love interests/side characters is probably one of my biggest pet peeves in VNs. -_-
No worries. It's my pet peeve as well, so I'll definitely work hard on preventing this from happening. "Missing A" will be set in a suburban location, so it'll be sort of like "it's a small world." Of course, it'll feel crowded and repetitive if I try and cram the same characters in every route, so I won't do that. Some will have importance and others may be mentioned. I'm hoping to spread out the little things across routes... you learn more about Person A in B's route, but less when you're in D's.

Not significantly, though. It will depend on the relationships the romanceable and side characters have with each other.

I hope that makes sense. I have a headache and it's hard to put words together.

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