Pig's Eye

[Cause]

Hey!

I'm currently trying to come up with some decent plot for a VN. Or rather I already have the plot rolled out in my head. But I'm not sure about it and would love to hear some outside thoughts.
Here's the plot in a nutshell:

It's about 16 year old Hannah, an apparently asexual girl trying to come to terms with her nonexistant sexuality while the whole world seemingly wants to shove all of it down her throat. Her best friend, Sarah, has a boyfriend and experience. Which is why she was confronted with that matter in the first place. Sarah constantly tries to "cure" her, which in turn doesn't sit well with Hannah. She's somewhat socially awkward and can't really comprehend intimate stuff, shame or embarassment. Her brother on the other hand is perfectly normal, however, which irks her quite a bit, since she uses him as a reference for herself. As time goes on, she grows ever more restless and tries to abide by social norms, which turns out desastrous. From then on the plot focusses on Hannahs relationship with Keith and Sarah and how they react to her decisions and mistakes.

Well, that's the basic plot. Of course, it's just the prologue and nothing else for now. There's much more to come. And I have, in fact, written about 1500 lines over the last 2 days totalling to about 25.000 words. But I don't want to write the whole plot down here.

The question however is, which direction I should take. I wouldn't mind making it an eroge, since it would certainly fit the plot. But on the other hand, I want to focus on her story, rather than squeezing in some cheesy lines and forced sex scenes. And while I want to focus on those 3 characters, I'm not sure, whether I should introduce a few more major ones. Mostly as (non-)romance options. 3 characters doesn't sound that much, huh?

More importantly, I want to hear thoughts about the basic plot. It's very interesting for me to write, but I don't know whether it's something others would want to read about, since it's a fringe issue. I don't even know whether I want to make the VN public, though, as I usually write only for myself. I've never made VNs before (apart from a failed, way too ambitious attempt). So I'm not sure, if this would even be the right target audience.

Anyway, thanks for any comments.

Cause

[Valhalla]

Hi!

First off I think it's an interesting idea to explore, it sounds like a 'coming to terms with your sexuality' story, which would be interesting, especially given her asexuality.
Although, I have to ask, is she actually asexual, or just socially awkward? It's a little unclear from you plot overview. If she is asexual, an eroge seems a strange way to go...
I feel like it would make more sense to focus on the main characters story, as you say.

Also, in terms of the number of characters, I think keeping it small is the best option. Small projects are easier to complete, and if you've had trouble completing projects in the past it's probably best to keep the character count/ routes low. As you get more comfortable with finishing projects making epics won't be as much of a problem.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. Take it for what you will. I'll keep an eye on the project as you go =)

[Cause]

I actually intended to not be clear about whether she was truly asexual. At least not from the get-go, as it is an integral part of the story. After all it's about her finding it out herself. But I guess that's a vain attempt in the concept phase.
In the past days, whenever I wasn't writing, I was gathering information about asexuality, since I myself am not. There are quite a few different subcategories ranging from true asexuality over aromanticity to demisexuality. The VNs title itself is a spoiler, though, as it's a different name for the Ace of Diamonds, which in turn is a slang term for demisexuality. Hence the "apparently asexual." Therefore romance and even eroge wouldn't be out of the question. But I'm still unsure about it.

Thanks for the advice. Keeping it simple should make it a lot easier.

[Mammon]

Especially for a small and one-man project there is no real need for more characters than you actually need. You could always add them for either small filler scenes to add upon the length or approach the plot from another person's perspective/interaction, but that's more if you feel that the story would sufficiently benefit from it.

About the story itself, you seem to have the plot, the characters and the character development thought out, but can the same be said for the scenes? Is there anything concrete happening? Considering you already have 25000 words written out I assume you have, but do you know where the story will go in terms of events and how you will realise the non-abstract part of this spiritual journey of Hannah's? More by lack of seeing it here (because you probably scrapped it to keep the opening post short) than from your plot this might become the biggest problem that you might hit. That you suddenly don't know how or what to actually do for the next step of her development and story.

[Cause]

I usually write scenes as they come to mind. So no, I don't have clear pictures about them. I do however have the character-progression rolled out in my head. Her decisions and actions that lead to her discoveries. I just need to write scenes around them.

Most importantly, the ending is halfway done. This is a weird habit of mine, where I start to write the whole ending, before touching the middle part. But thanks to that, I know exactly where the scenes have to lead in order to reach the ending I've previously written. Of the roughly ~1700 lines now, 800 are from the ending alone.

My biggest problem will be fillers and narration, I think. Every single event I've written until now is directly tied to the main story and her development. I also decided to use her future self as the narrator, which makes for some tough choices. Especially during intimate scenes, where I can't decide how to describe her feelings, because it'd become awkward for herself to express them. That's especially true when comparing the beginning I've written to the ending. I'll have to edit most of the narration, because it simply differs too much. At the beginning there are a lot of comments about her own silly behaviour, while later on the narration becomes mostly neutral.

Fillers are a whole different problem. I'm not really into writing comedy. But filling the whole story with just drama is silly as well. Of course there are some "funny" scenes and comments. But as a whole the VN is quite serious. That's why I don't really know how to "lighten" the mood with fillers here and there. The current "ending" ist just one confrontation and argument after another. I want to change that.

/edit:

Oh and since I seem to have explained it quite poorly, here's another thing: This VN is indeed about an "asexual" girl. But it's not about asexuality. The latter part of the story is about a whollly different issue. And even though asexuality is bound to play a role the whole time, it'll not be as prominent later on. It's "her" story. And I want to make her more than just an awkward girl.

[Mammon]

I usually write scenes as they come to mind. So no, I don't have clear pictures about them. I do however have the character-progression rolled out in my head. Her decisions and actions that lead to her discoveries. I just need to write scenes around them.

Well, in that case my worries may turn out to be just, but as long as you can actually come up with said scenes it shouldn't be a problem. It is for some people and for some it isn't. Only you and your experience can be the judge of that.

This is a weird habit of mine, where I start to write the whole ending, before touching the middle part. But thanks to that, I know exactly where the scenes have to lead in order to reach the ending I've previously written. Of the roughly ~1700 lines now, 800 are from the ending alone.

Much more common than you might think, a lot of people tend to image their story starting at the ending and leaving the middle part for last. It's definately not a bad idea to do so, it's a good way to prevent making a story that's not going anywhere. Writing that ending first as well, that's something I personally would not to.

You'll be assuming you accomplished certain character development that can justify the things you'll write in the ending, only for the actual development to be insufficient for the ending or different in nature. And rewriting that ending will be more difficult than writing something entirely new because you already have the ending and will urge to keep that or write it out again. The inspirational juices to come up with a new scene can be blocked by memories of the old one. I'm not sure if this makes any sense but it's something I experienced with a few scenes myself. It's really difficult to write something for a scene that's not too bad to be scrapped but not fitting enough to be kept in.

My biggest problem will be fillers and narration, I think. Every single event I've written until now is directly tied to the main story and her development.

Been there. For filler scenes where I pull a blank I usually try to come up with some aspect of the MC that hasn't been explained or showcased enough to the audience yet, and try to come up with a scene around it. Make it feel like I'm adding something worthwhile to the story rather than just empty words.

Fillers are a whole different problem. I'm not really into writing comedy. But filling the whole story with just drama is silly as well. Of course there are some "funny" scenes and comments. But as a whole the VN is quite serious. That's why I don't really know how to "lighten" the mood with fillers here and there. The current "ending" ist just one confrontation and argument after another. I want to change that.

Considering the topic of your plot and the way you want to display it, I can imagine this being a tough one. Finding comedic scenes to fit the topic isn't difficult, finding something comedic that wouldn't ruin the mood of the actually important story would be.

Let's take a really distasteful example: Hannah being tricked by Sarah to walk into the boy's changing room and running into several sweaty, halfnaked men can be given a funny vibe. Hannah is being apathic and calm under the situation despite understanding the situation (her eyes aren't drawn to certain parts nor does she blush etc.) and the men confused by this completely neutral response to their nakedness could give a 'funny scene', ha ha so hilarious . But it would completely ruin the drama and serious mood of the story.

Due to its serious tone the story has severely limited the amount of lighthearted and funny scenes it can have. I think the only advice I can give you here is to only write what you feel fits the story and prioritise the main story over a possible obligation for filler.

[Cause]

Well, in that case my worries may turn out to be just, but as long as you can actually come up with said scenes it shouldn't be a problem. It is for some people and for some it isn't. Only you and your experience can be the judge of that.

In that case, only time will tell, I guess. Thanks for the warning though. I'll keep it in mind.

Much more common than you might think, a lot of people tend to image their story starting at the ending and leaving the middle part for last. It's definately not a bad idea to do so, it's a good way to prevent making a story that's not going anywhere. Writing that ending first as well, that's something I personally would not to.

You'll be assuming you accomplished certain character development that can justify the things you'll write in the ending, only for the actual development to be insufficient for the ending or different in nature. And rewriting that ending will be more difficult than writing something entirely new because you already have the ending and will urge to keep that or write it out again. The inspirational juices to come up with a new scene can be blocked by memories of the old one. I'm not sure if this makes any sense but it's something I experienced with a few scenes myself. It's really difficult to write something for a scene that's not too bad to be scrapped but not fitting enough to be kept in.

I'm dead set on that ending, though. It's the most important part of the story. If I had to alter the ending, I could instead just start a new story from scratch.

Been there. For filler scenes where I pull a blank I usually try to come up with some aspect of the MC that hasn't been explained or showcased enough to the audience yet, and try to come up with a scene around it. Make it feel like I'm adding something worthwhile to the story rather than just empty words.

Well, I've been pondering about this some more. You're right about showing different aspects of the MC being the way to go. When I read my finished parts, she felt a bit one dimensional. There's quite a bit of potential in this.

Considering the topic of your plot and the way you want to display it, I can imagine this being a tough one. Finding comedic scenes to fit the topic isn't difficult, finding something comedic that wouldn't ruin the mood of the actually important story would be.

Let's take a really distasteful example: Hannah being tricked by Sarah to walk into the boy's changing room and running into several sweaty, halfnaked men can be given a funny vibe. Hannah is being apathic and calm under the situation despite understanding the situation (her eyes aren't drawn to certain parts nor does she blush etc.) and the men confused by this completely neutral response to their nakedness could give a 'funny scene', ha ha so hilarious . But it would completely ruin the drama and serious mood of the story.

Due to its serious tone the story has severely limited the amount of lighthearted and funny scenes it can have. I think the only advice I can give you here is to only write what you feel fits the story and prioritise the main story over a possible obligation for filler.

It's still making me uneasy. Even the most serious story needs some form of distraction. There were supposed to be off-screen sex scenes later in the game. But I'm not sure about them being off-screen anymore. I wonder if I could use them as a distraction. They would still be serious of course but not dramatic. For the most part, that is. It would also make it easier to get some points across. On the other hand, I don't want to overstretch that too much. Hah, I'll have to think about it some more.

Thanks a lot for your advice, though!

[Mammon]

I'm dead set on that ending, though. It's the most important part of the story. If I had to alter the ending, I could instead just start a new story from scratch.

The ending may not change, but the nuances in your portrayal of Hannah might. You may f.e. consider her to be apathic during the ending, her friend Sarah realising actions being wrong and the sex scenes that happened to be awkward. Then you write the middle part and find Hannah to become more emotional over time, that Sarah was never completely convinced of her wrongdoings and that the sex scenes are a source of regret and shame to Hannah. While the ending is still the same in its general form, and you could make a summary of these two endings that would be almost identical, the nuances in the ending might be way off. And that's a real tough nut to rewrite.

What I'm afraid might happen: As you're writing the middle part you'll be going with the flow and following your inspiration. Even if you don't there will be certain things and developments that came out better, and others not as much as you hoped. You cannot plan the fruitition of your story, you can only experience it as you write it. While you can indeed make an ending in advance and work towards it, writing that ending before the rest of the story will mean that you wrote it before you actually experienced the story yourself. Absolute worst case scenario, it will end up like those VN written by multiple writers where the ending (written by author #A) feels like a completely different story with different characters than the middle part (authors #B) and it will be very unsatisfying.

[Cause]

Damn, I just realized your warning about writing the ending first was right on spot. But in another way. The "ending" is slowly becoming the actual story, while the story I envisioned seems ever more like just a tiny missing link. Right now, about 23k out of roughly 33k words are dedicated to said ending. And there's much more I want to write about it. Guess that's the problem with starting to write for the sake of it. I need to rethink the whole structure and how to represent the 3 major themes I wanted to implement.

I'm a newbie, alright.

[Mammon]

Damn, I just realized your warning about writing the ending first was right on spot. But in another way. The "ending" is slowly becoming the actual story, while the story I envisioned seems ever more like just a tiny missing link. Right now, about 23k out of roughly 33k words are dedicated to said ending. And there's much more I want to write about it. Guess that's the problem with starting to write for the sake of it. I need to rethink the whole structure and how to represent the 3 major themes I wanted to implement.

You mean you imagined an ending and thought it would make an amazing story, only to find out once you got to structuring that of the actual story about 80% of the scenes would be build-up specifically and only for that one ending scene? That the rest of the story solely exists for the scene you did imagine, with nothing else going for it? That the ending IS the story, and the story is little more than the ending.

Well, maybe not as extreme as I said it above, but I know that problem. That I just came up with some really 'amazing, surprising and breath-taking' scenes only to find out that I had no idea what to do with the rest of the story leading up to it. That the actual story was still just blank space. Unfortunately my experience and routine to this problem is to scrap the story, I'm afraid I never tried to salvage one before so I wouldn't know a solution. It happened once with a story that I hadn't written out yet that I managed to just merge it with a completely different story to create a plot before the ending, but that wouldn't work here.

[Cause]

That's not quite it. I still want to write the previously envisioned story and I know mostly what I want in it. The thing is, I realized that the other themes are equally interesting to write about. Therefore I can't seem to stop, which leads to an overly bloated ending. I'll make it part of the actual story instead and write the "true" ending afterwards.

Ah, well. If nothing else, it'll be a good excercise. And I don't care anymore whether the story makes sense or not once I'm finished. I just want to write.

[Cause]

Well, thanks to being sick I was finally able to complete the story at about 100k words. I'll scrap all of it, though. The ending was indeed perfect and just like I wanted it to be. But the character progression seemed completely off. Just like you warned me about. Anyhow, I'm currently back at square on, writing the whole story from scratch. I do however have every single scene sketched out. And a way better feel about the dynamics between the 3 MCs. But there's still a problem. The comedy part. I didn't want to insert any strange scenes for comic-relief. Therefore I decided to go with simple banter. But while it seems funny in my head, there's no garantuee it actually is. Long story short, here's a banter scene I'd like you to rate:

Code: Select all

    Keith: Wanna finish the movie tonight? We were only halfway through.
    Hannah: Uh, to be honest, I didn't pay attention at all yesterday. We'd have to completely rewatch it.
    Keith: Oh come on, the good stuff was just about to unbound.
    Hannah: You can watch it alone, if you want to.
    Keith: As if I could. You'd be holding it against me for all eternity.
    Hannah: Aw, you know me so well!
    Keith: You feel proud about that?
    Hannah: Teasing you is my duty! And I'm good at my duties!
    Keith: Like washing your clothes?
    Hannah: They ended up perfectly clean. I don't know whatever you are talking about.
    Keith: Hah. Why did I have to get such a monster for a sister? What happened to all those cute sisters out there?
    Hannah: Roaar! The monster ate them. Who needs cute sisters anyway? They can't keep up in conversations, are stupid as hell and have waaay too huge eyes.
    Keith: You're talking about anime, aren't you?
    Hannah: Like I'd know what a 'cute sister' is supposed to be like. My info is all from anime.
    Keith: Yeah, like you'd know...
    Hannah: Would you really want me to be some stupid girl only able to follow you by the hem of your shirt?
    Keith: Like a stray puppy? Let me think about that for a se...yes I would!
    Hannah: Onii-chan, I need to peepee.
    Keith: You're perfect as you are.
    Hannah: That's my Keith!
    Keith: By the way, the bet's still on, huh?
    Hannah: Of course it is. I'll have you do the dishes for the next week. Haha!
    Keith: I'm better at chemistry, though.
    Hannah: But you were neglecting your studies, while I was at it the whole weekend.
    Keith: I wonder about that. Do you know what I did, while you were on your little girl's trip yesterday?
    Hannah: Washing dishes in advance?
    Keith: You'd better stop that if you don't want your hair ruffled again.
    Hannah: Mh, your hands seem clean enough today. I don't mind.
    Keith: Was that an invitation?
    Hannah: Let's get back on topic. You studied yesterday?
    Keith: And how I did. It'll be a solid A this time.
    Hannah: Oh, them's some fighting words! Wanna add something to our bet, then?
    Keith: What did you have in mind?
    Hannah: You'll have to buy me panties if you lose.
    Keith: What the actual hell, Hannah?
    Hannah: Hahaha. I knew I'd get you today! Hahaha.
    Keith: You're doing this on purpose after all. Damn it.
    Hannah: Aww, don't be like that. If you have the time to sulk, better find a way to come back at me. Them's the rules, Keith!
    Keith: Getting back, eh? Let me think for a second.
    Hannah: What a downer. You have to be spontaneous with those comebacks!
    Keith: That wouldn't be a problem, if I didn't have to fight against such a shameless person.
    Hannah: Nah, didn't click. Try another.
    Keith: That wasn't my comeback, idiot.
    Keith: Hmm. I'll take you up on your additional bet after all.
    Hannah: Huh, seriously? What happened to "No, I'd never buy girl's underwear! How embarassing!"?
    Keith: Ah, don't you worry, that won't happen. But I have an additional rule to pick as well, don't I?
    Hannah: Sure, whatever you throw at me is fine.
    Keith: Very well. If you lose, you'll have to actually go on a date with the next guy who asks me about you.
    Hannah: Ugh, are you for real?
    Keith: What? Lost your fighting spirit after all?
    Hannah: Come on, pick something else. That's not fair.
    Keith: Them's the rules, Hannah!

I don't want it to be too silly or out of character, though. So I can't fit in any more "comic-relief". But this also shows the personalities I want for Keith and Hannah and their relationship. I mostly fear that it might sound too forced. Anyway, critique is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Mammon]

Well, thanks to being sick I was finally able to complete the story at about 100k words. I'll scrap all of it, though. The ending was indeed perfect and just like I wanted it to be. But the character progression seemed completely off. Just like you warned me about. Anyhow, I'm currently back at square one, writing the whole story from scratch. I do however have every single scene sketched out. And a way better feel about the dynamics between the 3 MCs. But there's still a problem. The comedy part. I didn't want to insert any strange scenes for comic-relief. Therefore I decided to go with simple banter. But while it seems funny in my head, there's no garantuee it actually is. Long story short, here's a banter scene I'd like you to rate:

I don't want it to be too silly or out of character, though. So I can't fit in any more "comic-relief". But this also shows the personalities I want for Keith and Hannah and their relationship. I mostly fear that it might sound too forced. Anyway, critique is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Wow, 100.000 words in just the last few days, while being sick? Impressive. I wouldn't scrap it though, rewriting it might work better. Or at least recycling some scenes that did work. In my story I realised halfway that my character development was way off as well, my protagonist unintentionally became much more of a psychopathic *sshole who played wtih the lives of people like they were pieces on a chessboard and his very personality had to be rewritten almost completely. I went through the document rewriting it paragraph by paragraph, rather than starting again from scrap and that worked. Whether it will work in your case is something only you can be the judge of, of course.

Whether it's rewritten or a completely new version, I am sure it will be better than before. Now that you've written it out once and know where your inspiration and the situation will take your characters, you'll be much more in control and can guide the story to that ending much better.

Regarding the scene, the banter did work. Having only two brothers myself I have no experience with brother and sister teasing but it was an enjoyable read. As a reader I wouldn't be annoyed or bored by this, although I cannot judge whether this fits with the surrounding scenes that aren't banter. And the date bet does sound like a good plot device delivered quite naturally.

So, unless this scene doesn't match with Hannah's personality in the rest of the story, and I have no reason to believe so other than knowing that the overall story is drama and emotion, this would indeed be good banter. It will work better for a story like yours than comic relief.

[Cause]

I don't want to recycle anything, because the story was completely unbalanced. One of the three themes was overshadowing the other two tremendously. I want to balance them out, however, so every theme takes roughly a third of the story.

I wouldn't know about sibling banter, since I'm an only child. But I always pictured it to be somewhat like that. Without the awkwardness of course. Anyway, Hannah and Keith are supposed to be very close due to them being twins. The scene was taken from the prologue of the story, where everything's still fun and games. It'll get a lot darker, though. I'll mostly abstain from using banter scenes during the "real" drama. And while this is indeed supposed to be her personality, it'll somewhat change as time goes on, as uneasiness, anxiety and outright fear enter the field. The question is whether I'll be able to correctly depict that transition.

I dislike all the "clueless big brother, tsundere little sister" anime and VNs btw. That's why I try to keep both of them roughly equal in terms of wits and banter. There's no pouting, "baka" scenes or anything like that planned. They're simply close siblings. Sarah's on a wholly different level, though.

Thanks for your words yet again. I'll keep the banteridea, then and hope the second attempt will bears fruit.