Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#31 Post by IceD » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:46 pm

Jake wrote:He's not saying "stop making romance VNs at all", he's saying "stop assuming the default mode of a VN is romance and it's not complete without a set of romantic-interests to chase after". This is something that puts a lot of people off VNs. In fact, I'd say it's the second biggest negative stereotype I've encountered; right after "oh, they're all Japanese porn, right?" comes "oh, aren't they all just romance simulators for people too sad to get a real [girl/boy]friend?".

People who are on this forum right now are never going to be in the set of people he's talking about, because we're here. We've either learned to put up with it or actually like it. But if we want to expand the community significantly, I think he's right that shaking off the stereotype that all VNs are porn or romance would help.
That's exactly what I had in mind, I'm sorry if you didn't understand me, and thanks for the help Jake :) I think we should fight with those stereotypes. We propably can't do much but as a whole community we have at least far more bigger chance trying to change that. I don't what can be done in overall - it's hard to stand up against certain, touchy subjects like porn in nowadays media; as some say - porn will always be porn, no matter what. The only thing we could do was to show, that there is a difference beetwen porn and erotica, and they're not the same (because they aren't, really). As for romance I already said, that setting up a good story where the plot is most important part and romance is purely optional would be a good try. I think it would be even more interesting if people could find a "hidden" route, where there would be some kind of sweet, romantic relationship beetwen the characters, while the rest of the story would involve only small glimpses of romance here or there.

While those two mentioned above are the most important problems to solve, There's also one other - the genre. Maybe not that much important, but still quite irritable. I think it's the right time to try something purely different than average modern day school romance stories and classic fantasy tales about teams of accidental heroes fighting with ancient evil powers (dragons, undead, demons, evil humans, whatever), or at least make write them from a new point of view, something that hasn't been already shown or talked about. Or furthermore - try to mix various genres, play with the opposites. We all know that many things have been used over and over again, but hidden gems still can be found. It's a pity I haven't seen many well-made horror stories, or steampunk tales or good science fiction, not to mention post apocalyptic stories (but not concerning religions or world-sized catastrophes such as asteroid impact, please). I know - they're a lot harder to make, but someone has to finally try and brake that mold. Furthermore, I'd love to see (and not only I) a story where characters are involved in some kind of a big problem, but instead of trying to find the "perfect solution" (to put it bluntly: a good or at least the best available ending), are shown in what manner they're able to cope with that and somehow manage to live their lives. Bad or sad endings are better, because they leave a bigger impact; Happy stories are nice and also needed, but honestly - they don't leave anything by to think about later on. There are many good examples for us to follow; both in other visual novels, anime and manga, movies, comics, books and games but we shouldn't be trying to copy that stuff, but try to learn from it.
Deji wrote:You know, it would be nice that, instead of the typical "writer looking for artist" and "artist for hire!" threads, we could see "Artist looking for writer" and "Writer for hire!" instead.
I'm under the impression that it'd lure some artists into making more VNs, even if just to know the media and get involved and participate in bigger/better projects. Artists usually have lots of ideas and/or concepts just floating in their heads or on the pages of their sketchbooks, but they just don't know how to make them work or are afraid they don't have enough skills to make a complete work out of them themselves and they either never see the light of day or take forever for the artist to gather either the skills or the self-confidence to do something with them.
It's a good idea, but I think that there's also an obstacle in that, and in overall - we're still too hermetic and small as an community for this to happen. I'd say - If we want to do something about this whole disscusion is all about, is we have to go outside our base and start trying to encourage more people to try some good visual novels and see if they like it. I'd still to early for that to take a particular effect, because we as indie devs still lack something good we could show and say "Look - This is a visual novel [enter your description here], it's free and looks as professional as original japanese ones; the story is really involving and original. Care to try?", but we can alrerady try because there are titles that are already worth to look at and at least take a peek. We have to break those damn stereotypes floating everywhere and show that vn's are something really good - good as most of books people read at home or on the way to work. That's it's something that is worth spending time on. I can already say, that KS won't be able to become such an example, with the way it is. And do mind - we will need something that will appeal to wide audience, not only hardcore fans but normal, average people that would simply like to read a good, involving story and have some entertainment. I'm not talking about adults in overall, because VN's will never be something they will be interested with, but young people,aged 20-30 at best. To shorten, it's just all about generations and comprehension. As for fact and example, it's interesting that in my country an average age of people interested in anime/manga is somewhere around 22-23, which is quite amusing when we take all the youngsters into account who make up of large ammounts of fans. So it's not that bad, and I think everywhere else is preety the same - we just have to try :)

As for me, I started getting involved more in our polish anime/manga scene nowadays, and there's a cultural grouping in my hometown involved into that too (a preety name: "Citadel of Sirius", concerning widely-oriented fantasy creative-activity and anime and manga section works there too from not long ago). I met a new friend and together, we're going to put auditions about anime/manga and mostly important, visual novels :) I'll see what can be done, at least around me to change the attitude because I already talked with many people and most of them said they already seen/heard about VN's and even wanted to try b ut were put off seeing most of them are mostly about porn :D I'd say, we have to change that attitude!

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#32 Post by jack_norton » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:52 pm

When I wrote Bionic Heart, I personally enjoyed more *some* (not all!) of the bad endings than the good ones :)
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#33 Post by kinougames » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:29 pm

Jake wrote:He's not saying "stop making romance VNs at all", he's saying "stop assuming the default mode of a VN is romance and it's not complete without a set of romantic-interests to chase after". This is something that puts a lot of people off VNs. In fact, I'd say it's the second biggest negative stereotype I've encountered; right after "oh, they're all Japanese porn, right?" comes "oh, aren't they all just romance simulators for people too sad to get a real [girl/boy]friend?".
I have misunderstood, then, and to a certain extent I agree.
While those two mentioned above are the most important problems to solve, There's also one other - the genre. Maybe not that much important, but still quite irritable. I think it's the right time to try something purely different than average modern day school romance stories and classic fantasy tales about teams of accidental heroes fighting with ancient evil powers (dragons, undead, demons, evil humans, whatever), or at least make write them from a new point of view, something that hasn't been already shown or talked about. Or furthermore - try to mix various genres, play with the opposites. We all know that many things have been used over and over again, but hidden gems still can be found. It's a pity I haven't seen many well-made horror stories, or steampunk tales or good science fiction, not to mention post apocalyptic stories (but not concerning religions or world-sized catastrophes such as asteroid impact, please). I know - they're a lot harder to make, but someone has to finally try and brake that mold.
Amongst writers and writers groups, you'll find that most people have zero to little respect for romance writers. It's said that romance is just about the easiest thing to possibly write, but because of the natural interest lonely people have in it, it'll sell well as long as there's a scant semblance of a real story and some grammar/spelling thrown in. In some cases this can be true, if you've ever read a harlequin, you'd know that the worst of them can still sell.

But, they don't usually get intensely popular, nor do you see a mass ton of romances on top selling lists. Look at some of the top VNs out there? They're all plot with a romance side dish. The games I've played that are 100% romance, I ended up ditching fast because it was like "...yeah okay, you got with that guy. Yeah, okay, you got with that guy. Can I have something else please? Plot? Anyone? Bueller?" (Anyone who has played Zettai Fukujuu Meirei knows that the entire game is basically "and then romance happened" or "and then you screwed up the romance!")

I played through it once, lost the file, and never bothered again. Meanwhile, Animamundi, I've gotten all the endings and STILL go through and play it. It gave me a lot of direction for where I want to go with my game, as far as implementing romance without having it look like someone splattered romance all over it.

The best romances are always more than "I saw you and it was love!" It's that measure of growth through hard times. No plot? Your hard times are going to be awful contrived!

At any rate, the story I've written up for Mitsumata was really trying to break a lot of pre-existing molds. We've been asked, more than once "so who can Riku get with?" No, our game doesn't work that way. You're not playing the the game to "see who Riku can get with" or to "see who Roman can get with." CAN they get with someone? It's not impossible, but that will be determined by myself, as a writer, who knows which personalities mesh and which don't, and who won't force unalike ones to.

I modelled it vaguely after my favorite kind of VNs.

For example: Joe and Bob are friends, heading home from school. They usually walk together until they hit Catherine St. after which they live in separate directions, split off and head to their separate houses. On a given day, they're heading home, and you're at Catherine St. You can choose to follow Joe or Bob home. Following Joe home has him getting in, starting some homework, and hearing a massive explosion...when he looks, it's coming from Bob's house! Meanwhile, following Bob home has him walking in the door to his drunk mom throwing gas over the stove and then turning it on, blowing it and half of herself up.

Same story has become two depending on who you're playing.

The replayability potential increases so much more when you can see an event happen from the outside, not know what happens, and know that somewhere along the other storylines, you're going to see it first hand.
Furthermore, I'd love to see (and not only I) a story where characters are involved in some kind of a big problem, but instead of trying to find the "perfect solution" (to put it bluntly: a good or at least the best available ending), are shown in what manner they're able to cope with that and somehow manage to live their lives. Bad or sad endings are better, because they leave a bigger impact; Happy stories are nice and also needed, but honestly - they don't leave anything by to think about later on.
I've always known a 'good' ending as far as VNs to mean that it's a detailed ending in which you get lots of CGs, as opposed to the ending where your game is cut off prematurely because you messed up in your choices. I've not often seen it as a value judgement on ending content (for example, if X dies, then it was a bad ending because someone died). And that is, largely, the way I prefer it to be, and I think Akane's "Poisoned" game was a good example of how "good" endings should be detailed, not necessarily happy.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#34 Post by Jo'ogn » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:42 pm

I don't feel other artists need to be 'proselytized' into the VN world, and it's not necessarily "pornography" in itself that's 'bad', but how it is presented. Admittedly it is considerably difficult to create a serious plot/game based on sexual activity, like having martial arts, or any other fighting as a plot (ego shooter).

I am watching "La Blue Girl" these days and... well, they did try to turn sex into "secret ninja fighting arts". It is - of course - unvoluntarely funny, but also slightly disturbing, e.g. lots of demons raping presumably minor aged school girls, or that nobody seems to be mentally affected by being raped.

However we then have to seriously ask ourselves what makes plots where ppl slice and dismember each other's bodies with katana, or killing in any other way any 'better'? Or even more acceptable? Sometimes - not often, but occasionally the psychological effects of being a murderer is part of the plot, so from that POV it isn't any 'better' or 'worse' (for lack of better terms) than e.g. the (careless) raping in "La Blue Girl".

Dismissing sexual activity, or fondness, or tenderness in a serious romatic plot because it might embarrass the one or other prude is somehow hypocritical, if not fake. It doesn't mean that it needs to be graphical. That's what the difference between erotic and pornographic is. We have to thank those ppl who abuse "erotic" as an euphemism for "porn" for what ever reasons they have.

Romance is not necessarily 'easy' to write. And we also had brought up on LSF the issue of games that are about running a relationship rather than: 1) school kids dating 2) confessing 3) GAME OVER o_0 There is so much potential for serious 'adult orientated' games. The reason why it's not done, is because it is seemingly not as easy, or is it?
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#35 Post by kinougames » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:01 pm

Jo'ogn wrote: However we then have to seriously ask ourselves what makes plots where ppl slice and dismember each other's bodies with katana, or killing in any other way any 'better'? Or even more acceptable? Sometimes - not often, but occasionally the psychological effects of being a murderer is part of the plot, so from that POV it isn't any 'better' or 'worse' (for lack of better terms) than e.g. the (careless) raping in "La Blue Girl".

Romance is not necessarily 'easy' to write. And we also had brought up on LSF the issue of games that are about running a relationship rather than: 1) school kids dating 2) confessing 3) GAME OVER o_0 There is so much potential for serious 'adult orientated' games. The reason why it's not done, is because it is seemingly not as easy, or is it?
Meaningless hack and slash plots are not any better. What those plots ARE is less common. If you can find one completely hack and slash "plot" on lemma, I'd sure like to see it.

What IS being said is that romance is often used as a way out of plots because it is largely popular even when written poorly. Plot is difficult to write for a lot of people, and a lot of people go with romance because you don't necessarily need an overarching idea so much as reasonable characterization and chemistry between characters.

That isn't to say that one absolutely cannot make a great story where romance is the major factor, because I don't believe in any topic being "bad" so much as "badly executed, but in general, romance in real life is not just a set of flings as people might write it. There's a lot more to it than that, and those have to be included to make it realistic.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#36 Post by neowired » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:27 pm

I would hire writers, I would probably also hire graphic artists, to make an awesome commercial visual novel ; p
If I had any sensible income and if i didn't have to think of how I'm going to manage next few months of my basic life expenses ; p

From what I have seen, many times, and experienced myself, graphic art is harder, ok?
Now, don't eat me, I'm not saying this to offend, in fact, let me explain, because it's not exactly like that.

Good writing is, probably, as hard as drawing good art. But writing is much much faster. Generally, you can't compare the work of a writer and the work of a graphic artist, because graphic art takes a lot more time to achieve a similar effect of quality/detail. As the budget goes up and we are looking for even more eye candy and detail, this proportion moves even more to graphic time

This is, I think, why there are so many writers offering to do stuff for free, compared to graphic artists.
Also, from my personal perspective, most of the free writers are pretty bad writers.

Good writers and good artists, in general, are hard to find and usually busy with their own stuff. I see myself as a pretty decent writer, quality wise, but at the same writing is slow and somewhat hard to me. But I wouldn't want to spend time on doing graphic, working with a writer who can't write even close to my own writing level.

Best thing I could offer as a graphic artist is to work on a collab with a writer, if the writer would meet my standards and if we both had a say in the plot. The writer on the other hand would have a say on the art. (the profits would be divided)

Obvious reason to work in groups is the time. Sometimes I feel like the only way to reach any sensible thing in making stuff is to sacrifice some quality by having some artists below your standards. Because finding a really good writer can be even harder than finding a really good graphic artist.

I can come up with a 2000-3000 word story and write said story in a matter of a day. In the same time I can draw maybe 1 or two characters (If they are supposed to have any sort of quality), that's about how I see the time comparison of writer - graphic artist work

Also, other than a writer, let's not forget the coders. Although in case of simple renpy stuff, you don't need good coders, that's why it's generally not included. But when you want more complex games, how work-intensive and how hard to make it is really depends on the complexity. It may be less work than writers have, but it may also be more than graphic artists if it's very complex (visual novels generally don't reach such levels though)

Music artists. There are many good music artists who I think are probably easy to reach, especially if you have the money (A really good writer may be very hard to come by, no matter if you have the money, they are usually doing other things). The work time spent on music work largely depends on the type of work and on the quality we want to achieve, I think. You can record a couple of music tracks in a matter of a few hours, if you are looking for amateurish stuff, but if you want professional music it can be as slow as the work of a graphic artist (one track per day or even slower)

You must remember any profit has to relate to the time spent. Also, artists are generally underpaid (writers, graphic artists slightly less, coders not really, music artists vary a lot), so hardly any artist can supply money (coders may be most likely, as coding is the most "solid" profession compared to the other artists, and highest paid), unless they have a good money income of some sort. If they have income then they don't have time, because they work for that money ; p.

And let's not forget the most important person who we are largely lacking in this discussion... the one who does the selling/marketing/directing, the "overmind". Someone who can do this well, may deserve the most profit, they are really hard to come by. These incidentally ; p are the people who often have lots of money, because they spend time making money, but these people are rare and in great demand (hence why they are paid a lot and have money ; p, also why they are busy doing well... the really profitable things)

I hope I haven't said anything false or stupid. Feel free to clear any of my errors or misinformation, if you think I said something blatantly stupid.

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#37 Post by kinougames » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:23 pm

Not taking offense here, I'm going to respond as a writer.

Writing is not as fast as you think, and just like art, it really depends on who is doing it. Just as graphic artists look and re-look and third-look their work to make sure each piece is great, writers look and relook and third-look their writing. There are so many things that people don't notice while reading a good book, things that would make a great book horrific if it went without.

It takes me several days to perfect 1000 words, and I end up going back to them over and over, because just like an art piece, the more you look at it, the less able you are to see mistakes.

Writers offer themselves for free because indies often won't pay them. Again, it goes back to the idea that people think that if you speak any language, you can write. This is much different from the idea that you can draw, since art takes from real life, and you can look at a tree and see a drawn tree and know immediately if the drawn tree is decent at all. "Does it look like the real tree? Yes? Okay good. No? Darn, let me fix it."

There are a lot of studies done about how much the brain can handle, and it very clearly states that humans can process pictures much faster than text because the human brain is built to process images...not text.

I haven't seen most free writers being bad. They're usually at least average. It's pretty outright rare that I'll see a writer offering any services that doesn't have a basic handle on writing, likely because they know that if they're not at least that decent, no one will be interested at all.

Naturally, no artist would want to work with a writer who can't write at least as well as they can. In that case, they could write it themselves! And you can bet writers won't want to work with an artist who can't at least draw as well as they can for the same reason.

It's, in general, reasonable to expect that if you aren't paying market rate for something, something is going to come up substandard. People get tired, bored, upset, etc, and it affects their art or their writing.

Just like art, however, some people can write very well in minutes, others take a long time to perfect something.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#38 Post by neowired » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:44 pm

kinougames wrote:It takes me several days to perfect 1000 words, and I end up going back to them over and over, because just like an art piece, the more you look at it, the less able you are to see mistakes.
Taking for a moment aside the fact that writing is perhaps the most subjective art. I sort of agree and sort of don't, when thinking about myself.
Depends on the size. As a story grows in size the writing becomes exponentially harder to me, if I want to keep it decent. Writing a 1000 word story in one day, going multiple times over it, perfecting all the mistakes and phrases - perfectly possible. Writing a 10 000 word story in 10 days - there would probably be a lot of quality issues with such a story. Writing a 100 000 word one in 3 months - most amateur (and probably many if not most professional) writers find that impossible, as far as I know.
Just like art, however, some people can write very well in minutes, others take a long time to perfect something.
There are those writers, who can write quality stuff, no matter how long it is supposed to be, and with a steady, very high speed. Those tend to be the only ones who can become professional writers, as far as I know (by professional, I mean, they can make a living out of it)
I haven't seen most free writers being bad. They're usually at least average. It's pretty outright rare that I'll see a writer offering any services that doesn't have a basic handle on writing, likely because they know that if they're not at least that decent, no one will be interested at all.
I either have my standards to high, or I read to much of bad fiction/fanfiction, but I think the "90% of everything is crud" rule easily stand in this case. Out of the 10% that is left maybe 1% is what I would say meets my standards. (I read all those badly written stories, but I wouldn't want to collab on one)
I probably have a skewed idea about the quality of my writing, sometime I'm not sure at all, but people tell me it's very good. My opinion about my graphic is that it's good but still far from the standards which I'd like to achieve, and in some areas it's at best average.
It's, in general, reasonable to expect that if you aren't paying market rate for something, something is going to come up substandard. People get tired, bored, upset, etc, and it affects their art or their writing.
Completely understandable, if I were to pay one, I would look for a good writer and I think he should be payed just as well as any other profession is, as long as he does sensibly quick quality work (like it would be expected from any other profession).

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#39 Post by kinougames » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:07 pm

Me, every time I go back to my work, I find something that could've been said a little better. I'm sure I could write 1000 words in a single day and have it be feasible to someone, but it wouldn't be to me. "Perfect" gets really shady because writing is so very interpretive that two people could think the same exact sentence sounds amazing or horrible in a situation.

Speed is the same thing for every art form. The artists with the best jobs are artists who can get piles of work out fast and work on deadlines. Slow artists don't get high-paying work.

As far as your standards...are you just reading fanfiction, or are you actually perusing writers offering their services? There is a massive difference between someone doing something for fun on their own time and someone who thinks they are good enough to make an actual genuine offer.

I'll be glad to critique writing if you'd like.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#40 Post by IceD » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:52 am

kinougames wrote:I've always known a 'good' ending as far as VNs to mean that it's a detailed ending in which you get lots of CGs, as opposed to the ending where your game is cut off prematurely because you messed up in your choices. I've not often seen it as a value judgement on ending content (for example, if X dies, then it was a bad ending because someone died). And that is, largely, the way I prefer it to be, and I think Akane's "Poisoned" game was a good example of how "good" endings should be detailed, not necessarily happy.
What I had in mind were the types of endings not based on game mechanics or design (ending in a visual novel, where the game ends abruptly, similiar to good old "game over" screen) but storywise - ending that wouldn't be perceived as "good", where everyone is happy living ever after. I'm rather oposed to "game over" endings in visual novels (NGE Girlfriend of Steel II is a perfect example of that - they're kinda funny at the beggining, but make everything frustrating after a while). It also varies how one sees the ending - for some they might look terrible when everyone dies and the world gets destroyed (for example), while others might be just amused and look for different, hidden meanings in that (they usually try to do so :) ).

As far as I can remember, almost everyone that has some sort of talent and ability can write 1000 words a day - it's a basic wordcount for beggining writers and there's nothing special in it, but do mind, that one thousand words is already quite a lot of text. Proffesional writers can reach up to 3000 words a day and more and they usually try to keep such pace - if they write less for more than few days it means they are tired or need a brake. There are also true masters, that are able to write fluidly more than 5000 words a day, but they make somewhat a very small percent of all the writers.

Bad writing is easy, good writing takes a lot of time and patience. Please, do not try compare writing to drawing - both of them are art, both of them are proffesions and both of them take time, when one comes to them with heart. Writing isn't easier than drawing and drawing doesn't take a lot longer to create content of equal quality. These are most common basic arguments each of the group holds to manifest their superiority over another. I've seen artists in real life, that are able to draw a fully finished sketch of a character in 10-15 mins and even put some basic colors on them, and they don't do it digitally. You can also do that, with a lot of practice, although artists drawing like that are gifted with perception far more better than others. Also, digital drawing takes a bit more time than traditional.

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#41 Post by kinougames » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:16 am

You missed my point a little. It's not about the wordcount. It's about feeling a personal satisfaction with the work I've done. I can write a few thousand "good" words. If I left them, most people likely wouldn't know the difference. But, when I go back and look it over, I might find something I feel could be worded better. That's what a writer does...they don't say "oh well, this is good enough" and let it go. I have no doubt that even people who put out 5K words a day look back over those pieces later and think "...man, I should've changed that and that and that..."

Unfortunately, despite the amount of skill needed for both being about "equal", they will not be viewed that way by your average internet person.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#42 Post by neowired » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:22 am

These are most common basic arguments each of the group holds to manifest their superiority over another.
I don't think it means drawing or writing artists are superior over each other.

I do think that both of those mediums are different.
I think writing is much superior to graphic when it comes to the speed of showing plot or dialog. The only time when graphic comes remotely close to writing is when it's about describing very complex environments. Visual art is easier to notice, and the average person of today prefers heavily visual art compared to written art.

I see writing superior to graphic, as a medium, when willing to tell a story. Because it is much faster to portray a story in a written medium.

I believe every art form has some up sides over other forms, as well as some down sides.
I think it is only natural.

Of course comparing graphic to writing quality wise is already a shady business ; p because of how different those mediums are. But when making art you are often forced to think about things like overall quality.
It's about feeling a personal satisfaction with the work I've done. I can write a few thousand "good" words. If I left them, most people likely wouldn't know the difference. But, when I go back and look it over, I might find something I feel could be worded better. That's what a writer does...
I don't think this is really a good argument, because I can easily extrapolate this to graphic or any other medium. As a graphic artist, you can also go over one drawing for days or weeks, there are graphic artists who can draw one painting for half of a year. So this argument can be used for any sort of art, it's not something special for writers.

In generally when doing anything commercial professionalism = quality/speed
As far as I can remember, almost everyone that has some sort of talent and ability can write 1000 words a day - it's a basic word count for beginning writers and there's nothing special in it, but do mind, that one thousand words is already quite a lot of text.
the point is, if you write a 1000 word story, making one illustration for it can be done in a day, but to make a comic out of it you may still need a month. try making a cartoon out of it, or game, graphic grows exponentially. This is why I like visual novels as a medium, they at least have some equality in terms of writing - graphic work time.

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#43 Post by IceD » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:53 am

neowired wrote:The point is, if you write a 1000 word story, making one illustration for it can be done in a day, but to make a comic out of it you may still need a month. try making a cartoon out of it, or game, graphic grows exponentially. This is why I like visual novels as a medium, they at least have some equality in terms of writing - graphic work time.
Yes, that's it :) This is one of the main reasons why visual novels are so awesome as an artistic medium - they equally combine writing, art, music, sounds and voice acting along with interactive gaming elements to tell a story. It's just like having mix of a game, comic, movie, book and radio play drama mixed together for best experience.

It's a shame they are so underrated, because nowadays, with technology still improving and ever growing need for information and enertainment visual novels could become a hit on mobile devices, and not only them. They're a work of art, meaning they could have higher qualities and are far more easier to create, being less resource-extensive than most of normal games; there is no need for a large team of people working on it together, and a small group can easily manage to create it in a rather short period of time, giving some new opportunities this way.

That's why we have to fight for them :)

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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#44 Post by kinougames » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:06 pm

I don't think this is really a good argument, because I can easily extrapolate this to graphic or any other medium. As a graphic artist, you can also go over one drawing for days or weeks, there are graphic artists who can draw one painting for half of a year. So this argument can be used for any sort of art, it's not something special for writers.

In generally when doing anything commercial professionalism = quality/speed
I'm not sure what you think I am arguing. I was referring to the idea that "oh, well, 1000 words is not a lot and should be perfected in X time." And my comment was to say that "making 1000 words suitable for someone who wants them could take me as little as an hour...making it as good as -I- want it can take days."

And, 1000 words is not a lot of story. 1K words is like, half of a short VN scene, in my mind. If challenged, I could probably write a 1K story that could be summed up in 1-2 comic pages.
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Re: Expanding the Community (was: Unique Opportunity)

#45 Post by Jo'ogn » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:10 pm

Another thing to consider is - unless you write a "kinetic novel", where you can sequentially write your "X number of words per day": A multi-path story that aims at giving the player feed-back of his choices, means non-linear writing. You become a game-designer and semi-programmer with "IF-THEN-ELSE" pathes.
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